210 réponses à ce sujet

[Haventh]

In ME 1 the characters are good, but in ME 2, the squadmates are more rich, many more races and they come from many more walks of life than in ME 1. Also their loyalty mission does give more insight into the character.



The loyalty missions wasn't meant to be connected with the main plot, it is simply to develop a relationship with your squadmates so you don't walk into a suicide mission when you don't know your crew.



No character development?



You find her on freedom's progress, obviously joyed of seeing Shepard alive. During the game, even if you chose to romance her or not, her loyalty missions shows alot about Tali if you ask her about things, and talk with other Quarians that are friends of her family.



She gains more trust in Shepard if you don't get her exiled, and states that she is happy atleast one would stand for her.



Obviously you are a Liara fan, i was aswell in ME 1, but Liara had simply changed too much for me to like her anymore, or for my characters to like her anyore ( i only play Paragon ). Liara is ok in ME 2, she isn't my fav, but she isn't at the bottom either.



I respect that you like Liara, or any other character you chose to like. But it seriously seems to me that you are angry that Liara, Kaiden and Ashley got benched in ME 2, and take it out on other people and characters. Also it seems to me that you are very subjective, you don't seem to view things objectivly, outside your own opinions.

[Vaenier]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I thought they were so much weaker it hurts. And their loyalty missions were isolated side missions, as much about combat as about highlight a small facet of their personality.

Tali's is very strong. There is actual substance to it.
Garrus's was a one night stand. It was a stress release, skipping the combat part though

[SurfaceBeneath]

InvaderErl wrote...

Not to throw stones, but half of Liara's dialogue was codex info. For a love interest that's not acceptable.

*cringes at the sound of fracturing ice*

Get outta there InvaderErl! You know not what danger you stumble into!

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 21 février 2010 - 02:39 .

[InvaderErl]

Um... eep?

[SurfaceBeneath]

Vaenier wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I thought they were so much weaker it hurts. And their loyalty missions were isolated side missions, as much about combat as about highlight a small facet of their personality.

Tali's is very strong. There is actual substance to it.
Garrus's was a one night stand. It was a stress release, skipping the combat part though

I found Garrus' romance one of the most touching in the game. The way it emerged from a kind of deep friendship was just outstanding.

Best friend sex is the best sex.

[Nightwriter]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...


I agree, I found the ME2 LIs much richer. They just felt like deeper characters, and their loyalty missions added a whole new level to it all.

I thought they were so much weaker it hurts. And their loyalty missions were isolated side missions, as much about combat as about highlight a small facet of their personality.

Did their loyalty missions ever crop again after completion? No, its simply "Here is the problem" and "Problem solved, job done".

Id take richer dialogue and more conversations over a tacked on loyalty mission thats more than likely as much about killing and blowing stuff up as it is about developing a character.

Whats the extent of Mirandas loyalty mission? Learning that she cares about her sister, thats it. Beyond that its just a slog through an Illium warehouse or cargo bay of some sort.

Yeah, but you always think that. Any kind of in depth character development or emotional complexity is silly to you. Any character that needs your help to resolve something about themselves is worthy of an eye roll.

[Madecologist]

I don't think one is richer than the other. Some say the ME2 Loyalty mission is shallow and does not evolve a character. While some will argue that having them stand in the Normandy and unload an encyclopedia into your face is not much better either.

Modifié par Madecologist, 21 février 2010 - 02:45 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Vaenier wrote...

Tali's is very strong. There is actual substance to it.
Garrus's was a one night stand. It was a stress release, skipping the combat part though

Talis recruitment and loyalty missions were among my favourite, but Id say the best thing about them is the fact that they potentially foreshadow events that might come to fruition in ME3. Maybe, we dont know for certain yet.

Other than that, I learnt nothing really new about Tali. Her issues with her father were pretty much how she described, and despite the fact that seeing her grief over her father (which was incredibly well acted by Liz Sroka, possibly the best performance of grief Ive heard in a video game) its basically what she told me in ME1 in action.

I didnt like both Garrus recruitment and loyalty mission, since it was 90% combat 10% "just like old times". Yeah, you keep saying that, but Im not seeing it.

Then, add in the final nail in the coffin that neither character offers any really substantial dialogue unless you romance them.  Yes, "my old friend from ME1 wont talk to me since I have no plans to invade their armour". Yeah, that really endeared them to me, and made me feel like they were an improvement over their older characters.

This isnt me saying the ME1 squad was a flawless work of writing perfection. They had their problems. Liara was too reliant on being romanced, but by comparison to the ME2 LIs, continuing to say that about her is laughable. Most characters simply feed you the "busy" line unless you romance them in ME2. At least Liara continued to talk to you after you turned her down.

[JPfanner]

How is Liara going after the Shadow Broker any "worse" than most of the issues you play nanny for and resolve for your squadmates?



Garrus wants to shoot some guy in the head in public on the Citadel.

Samara wants to kill her daughter.

Legion wants to rewrite or kill millions of other geth.

How many people do you gun down on Miranda's mission who were just hired to get some guy's daughter back?



Liara going after the Shadow Broker actually has something to do with Shepard and the Collectors, unlike all the loyalty missions.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Nightwriter wrote...

Yeah, but you always think that. Any kind of in depth character development or emotional complexity is silly to you. Any character that needs your help to resolve something about themselves is worthy of an eye roll.

Is that the best you can do? You cant at least try in vain to make up some complexity and depth to Mirandas loyalty mission for example? I got about one conversation about her genetic engineering and daddy issues, a loyalty mission where its made clear she loves her sister, and then once again, when its clear there is to be no romance: "Im busy Shepard, ****** off".

Im just drowning in the depth of the ME2 squad here.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 21 février 2010 - 02:49 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nightwriter wrote...
Yeah, but you always think that. Any kind of in depth character development or emotional complexity is silly to you. Any character that needs your help to resolve something about themselves is worthy of an eye roll.

Hey HEY HEY!

You're taking my schtick here! I'm the one supposed to be trolling Liara fans!

I feel so replacable

[SurfaceBeneath]

JPfanner wrote...
Liara going after the Shadow Broker actually has something to do with Shepard and the Collectors, unlike all the loyalty missions.

That's actually the point of the Loyalty missions is they don't have anything to do with the Collectors.

[InvaderErl]

Liara going after the Shadow Broker actually has something to do with Shepard and the Collectors, unlike all the loyalty missions.

I thought it was because the SB killed her Drell friend.

The Shadow Broker doesn't really pose a threat to Shep anymore, she's doing her revenge thing strictly for her reasons.

[Haventh]

Beyond getting to know your squadmates and their background in ME 1, there really isn't much to talk to them about, except when their mention that they need your help with something personal. It's about the same amount in dialogue in ME 2.

Don't get me wrong i really loved ME 1, and i loved the characters, just that i love the characters in ME 2 even more. Doing the loyalty missions feels like you get to know them better, and the loyalty missions are longer than the ones in ME 1, which is why i think it is richer. You spend more time with them, on their personal tasks, so it is richer.

You get to know more what makes them tick during their loyalty missions, which again makes you know the characters more.

Dinkamus_Littlelog: Activating ignore protocol.

Modifié par Haventh, 21 février 2010 - 03:03 .

[InvaderErl]

Well, Shep's already fighting the Collectors. It seemed pretty clear to me that Liara wanting to kill the Shadow Broker was mainly personal at that point. Not something I had a problem with, as she's clearly entitled to have her vendetta but that's all it came off as to me.

Anywho,

The Loyalty missions were amazing. I actually felt a sadness swell up within me when Tali found her father dead and I was peeking in on something personal that I as an outsider to their family dynamic had no place seeing.

Or watching Mordin wade through the destruction he had wrought on Tuchanka. The music coupled with the voice acting really helped me feel a fraction of what Mordin was going through.

So yeah, the ME2 characters were definitely deeper.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 21 février 2010 - 02:56 .

[Vaenier]

JPfanner wrote...

How is Liara going after the Shadow Broker any "worse" than most of the issues you play nanny for and resolve for your squadmates?

Garrus wants to shoot some guy in the head in public on the Citadel.
Samara wants to kill her daughter.
Legion wants to rewrite or kill millions of other geth.
How many people do you gun down on Miranda's mission who were just hired to get some guy's daughter back?

Liara going after the Shadow Broker actually has something to do with Shepard and the Collectors, unlike all the loyalty missions.

Destroying the remaining hostile Geth is not important to the Reaper invasion how?...
And Liara puts her vendetta ahead of helping Shep. Everyone else will follow you through hell and back.

[JPfanner]

InvaderErl wrote...
[The Shadow Broker doesn't really pose a threat to Shep anymore, she's doing her revenge thing strictly for her reasons.

She says for you, her friend, and the connection to the Collectors.  There's obviously still a price out there for Shepard, when you get betrayed by the warden on Purgatory it shows that.  Personally I'd like to know what connection the Shadow Broker had and get some more idea on what all went on while people were fighting over my carcass.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Haventh wrote...

You get to know more what makes them thick during their loyalty missions, which again makes you know the characters more.

No you dont. You get to fix one of their problems, and its all completely contained in one easy, most likely combat reliant side mission.

Grunt - The little krogan boy who wants an identity.

Thane - Wants closure with his estranged son

Samara - Wants to kill her fugitive, homicidal daughter

Mordin - Clearly wants some closure after his work on the genophage

Tali - Wants to answer the charges against her

Garrus - Wants revenge

Zaeed - Same

Jacob - Wants to put the question over his father to rest/put his daddy issues to rest

Miranda - Wants to protect her sister

Jack - Wants to move on from her past

Legion - Thats just a geth problem

You might learn something about them, but its not with the depth and complexity that some people like to say. If you can add more to that, by all means. I just think its a wasted effort, since the loyalty missions dont add that much to them really. Its why most of them are 80-90% combat based, with the exception of Samara and Thane.

[InvaderErl]

JPfanner wrote...


She says for you, her friend, and the connection to the Collectors.  There's obviously still a price out there for Shepard, when you get betrayed by the warden on Purgatory it shows that.

That's really just speculation. The Warden WAS a bit of an idiot.

"I'VE GOT YOU NOW SHEPARD!"

"Ya know, I'm not actually IN the cell yet."

"Oh ****."

[Nozybidaj]

Haventh wrote...

Beyond getting to know your squadmates and their background in ME 1, there really isn't much to talk to them about, except when their mention that they need your help with something personal. It's about the same amount in dialogue in ME 2.

Don't get me wrong i really loved ME 1, and i loved the characters, just that i love the characters in ME 2 even more. Doing the loyalty missions feels like you get to know them better, and the loyalty missions are longer than the ones in ME 1, which is why i think it is richer. You spend more time with them, on their personal tasks, so it is richer.

You get to know more what makes them tick during their loyalty missions, which again makes you know the characters more.

I felt like the loyalty missions were poorly contrived ways of adding more gunplay to the game for the most part.  Beyond romancing them I had no reason at all to talk to any of them (aside from Mordin) where even after two years I still talk to every ME1 character on my play throughs.  I actually spend less time with the ME2 cast than I did the ME1 cast, they are just a much shallower group overall.  Unless you romance them you learn virtually next to nothing about them.

Of course, this is all my opinion, just as your's is your opinion and mine is just as right as your's is.

With that out of the way, I don't begrudge anyone their appreciation of the ME2 cast, if not for the poor handling of the ME1 LI's casting a shadow over the whole game for me I might have even cared enough to, well, care about.  But don't come in here with some snotty attitude trying to tell those of us who do prefer the ME1 cast and were disappointed with their mishandling in ME2 that we are wrong to feel that way.  Not to pick on Haventh in particular, but just in general.

[Madecologist]

Now that I pointed out that both system can be just as shallow, I actually liked both games and enjoyed the characters in both of them. But I reconise that having a character unload codex entries into your face is not akin to character development, and as such it is very ironic someone can claim ME1 had more because of that. If ME2 is shallow, so is ME1.

I like to think that both had a lot of depth instead.

Personally I prefer the loyalty mission system though, I like development to happen in the midst of combat and conflict.

Modifié par Madecologist, 21 février 2010 - 03:03 .

[Midnight Reyn]

InvaderErl wrote...

So yeah, the ME2 characters were definitely deeper.

Not exactly a fair comparison, though, because the ME1 characters did not have the equivalent of a loyalty mission.

Taking the loyalty mission out of the equation and comparing the conversations (not including any talk related to the loyalty mission) that occur on the normandy between the ME1 characters and the ME2 characters is, in my opinion, a much fairer comparision.