210 réponses à ce sujet

[JPfanner]

Vaenier wrote...

And Liara puts her vendetta ahead of helping Shep. Everyone else will follow you through hell and back.

Yes, because Bioware said that the ME1 LI's wouldn't be available as squadmates.  That's why Ashley, Kaiden, and Liara don't join you!  If you think it is stupid for Ashley and Kaiden to not trust you or you think it is absurd for Liara to put her vendetta ahead of that then Bioware didn't really provide those characters with compelling and convincing enough reasons.
I can understand why Ashely or Kaiden don't trust you, at that point I still wasn't sure if Cerberus had done something to me either.  Plus they're still Alliance and have a job to do, just like Tali had to go back to the Fleet at first.  But ultimately Ashley and Kaiden don't join you because they weren't supposed to within the framework Bioware established during development.
Liara doesn't stop pursuing the Shadow Broker, or join you and have you spend the 20 minutes it'd take to resolve the sidemission to kill him, because Bioware wanted her to not join you.  And we've got the comic with the skewed release dates, so perhaps a lot of the stuff with her is kind of in a limbo until that all comes out.  I mean, who didn't at least chuckle a bit when Liara tells you that joining you to hunt down the Shadow Broker won't work because "the galaxy doesn't work that way".

[DRACO1130]

Liara NEEDS to become the cold hearted **** queen with an Asari Matriarch's powers to be of use to Shepard in ME3 as the replacement for the shadow broker(incidentally, anyone else notice the 'consort' planning to leave the citadel just as Liara is closing in on the shadow broker - Coincidence ? I think not)

Warm & Fuzzy Liara the shy archeologist who swooned at the thought of Shepard's touch would be of no use to the coming struggle - Yeah, I agree, it TOTALLY sucks to have her become 'HARD' but its totally needed for whats to come.

Love is the first casualty of War.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Madecologist wrote...

Personally I prefer the loyalty mission system though, I like development to happen in the midst of combat and conflict.

I prefer the ME1 system, since I think enough of ME2 is already popping out of cover shooting enemies without it trampling on the character development.

[Cutlass Jack]

I think there really needs to be a spoof of that 'Cheaters' show in ME3. Where Liara (and/or Kai/Ash) and a cameraman jump out to confront Shep while he's on a date with his ME2 interest.

[Nightwriter]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Yeah, but you always think that. Any kind of in depth character development or emotional complexity is silly to you. Any character that needs your help to resolve something about themselves is worthy of an eye roll.

Is that the best you can do? You cant at least try in vain to make up some complexity and depth to Mirandas loyalty mission for example? I got about one conversation about her genetic engineering and daddy issues, a loyalty mission where its made clear she loves her sister, and then once again, when its clear there is to be no romance: "Im busy Shepard, ****** off".

Im just drowning in the depth of the ME2 squad here.

Oh, I know how you work, Dink. Spiting differing opinions and viciously dismissing counter arguments as ridiculousness right out of the chute is your opening right hook. He he.
 
But I’m not really interested in proving to you that my opinion is valid. And I’m sure Bioware isn’t really interested in proving to you that their deeper character development is valid, either.
 
All I’m saying is that you are rarely satisfied. This stagnates your arguments. Trying to make you happy with a story or a game is the equivalent of trying to cheer up Eeyore the Donkey.
 
It’s impossible. Even when he’s happy he’s miserable.  

[JPfanner]

InvaderErl wrote...

JPfanner wrote...


She says for you, her friend, and the connection to the Collectors.  There's obviously still a price out there for Shepard, when you get betrayed by the warden on Purgatory it shows that.

That's really just speculation. The Warden WAS a bit of an idiot.

"I'VE GOT YOU NOW SHEPARD!"

"Ya know, I'm not actually IN the cell yet."

"Oh ****."

He specifically says that you are worth a king's ransom.  Someone was willing to pay for you now.  Someone was willing to pay for you in the past.  It is speculation to draw a connection between those, but I don't think it can be dismissed.  Someone is still throwing around money to get their hands on you.

[Nozybidaj]

Nightwriter wrote...
But I’m not really interested in proving to you that my opinion is valid.

No need to validate an opinion, you are entirely within your rights to have an opinion.  Having an opinion though doesn't make it fact or correct,  Not yours, not Dinks, not Surfaces, not mine.

I prefer the ME1 characters and think ME2 was a very shallow game overall.  Just my opinion.

[Madecologist]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Personally I prefer the loyalty mission system though, I like development to happen in the midst of combat and conflict.

I prefer the ME1 system, since I think enough of ME2 is already popping out of cover shooting enemies without it trampling on the character development.

Prefering is one thing, that is alright. People will prefer one way over the other. But as I pointed out, both ways can be seen as shallow too. Most of your comments were not about how you prefer the ME1 way of doing it, but outright insulting the way ME2 did it. Using words such as "stupid, shallow, and pointless" is not a critical analysis or a means to convey you like ME1 better, but an attack on how ME2 done it.

No wonder people will argue against you.... assigning absolutes to your opinions will rile up feathers.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Nightwriter wrote...

Oh, I know how you work, Dink. Spiting differing opinions and viciously dismissing counter arguments as ridiculousness right out of the chute is your opening right hook. He he.
 
But I’m not really interested in proving to you that my opinion is valid. And I’m sure Bioware isn’t really interested in proving to you that their deeper character development is valid, either.
 
All I’m saying is that you are rarely satisfied. This stagnates your arguments. Trying to make you happy with a story or a game is the equivalent of trying to cheer up Eeyore the Donkey.
 
It’s impossible. Even when he’s happy he’s miserable.  

Clearly you dont know how I work, since you cant clearly see "harshly respondin to arrogance with your own brand".

Plus its really quite pathetic how you fabricate this "forever disappointd" persona. Why do you think Im here Nightwriter? You dont think maybe its because, despite its flaws, I though ME1 was a superb game, easily ranking among my all time favourites? Oh wait, you mean its simply because I can actually recognise (like many others are doing, just as I ALWAYS SAID THEY WOULD) areas where ME2 failed miserbly. Thats what makes m "impossible to please"? Well like I said, ME1 did a fine job of pleasing me, and a fair few other folks actually. ME2? Not so much.

Listen, ME2 above all else focused on the shooter elements. The loyalty missions were shallow character errands that offer nowhere near the amount of character development you ascribe to them, and certainly nowhere near enough to overthrow ME1s squad. If they really we as in depth as you say, wouldnt they all follow the Thane/Samara model of being dialogue and roleplay heavy, rather than "cover based shooting" heavy with a few morsels of exposition here and there, all pointing towards the same thing that got you the damn errand in the first place.

I think ME1, with its smaller, more dialogue, less "combat mission" reliant squadmates were far superior to ME2s squad, and I hope Bioware (now that theyve got the combat down, since its what ME2 almost revolves around) will return to a similar setup in ME3. Simply stating "the ME2 squad is deeper" isnt going to convince me of anything, and just make me state my opposing viewpoint. I mean I do have eyes, ears and most importantly a copy of ME2. I can see its failings for myself, and Id count most of ME2s shallow loyalty missions as one of them, to be sure.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 21 février 2010 - 03:22 .

[Madecologist]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I think there really needs to be a spoof of that 'Cheaters' show in ME3. Where Liara (and/or Kai/Ash) and a cameraman jump out to confront Shep while he's on a date with his ME2 interest.

Bah, then Shepard says things were over and she was just too dense to see it. Then it becomes the Jerry Springer show. Shepard and Liara screaming about the relationship, some Latifa clone in the crowd going "you tell him girl!" while the audience booing and cheering at both.

Then when the fighting gets stale, they walk in the ME2 LI from the back stage to spice up things. I can see Tali screaming at Liara "where were you when Shepard needed you!?" with Liara counter accusing her of being a boyfriend thief, and then a chair fight breaks out between the two. With Krogan security trying to break up the two.

Modifié par Madecologist, 21 février 2010 - 03:20 .

[InvaderErl]

Midnight Reyn wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

So yeah, the ME2 characters were definitely deeper.

Not exactly a fair comparison, though, because the ME1 characters did not have the equivalent of a loyalty mission.

Taking the loyalty mission out of the equation and comparing the conversations (not including any talk related to the loyalty mission) that occur on the normandy between the ME1 characters and the ME2 characters is, in my opinion, a much fairer comparision.

But that is WHAT I am saying. The loyalty missions do make those characters deeper, to take out the loyalty missions is to take out what gives them the edge. That was an improvement on Bioware's part.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Madecologist wrote...

No wonder people will argue against you.... assigning absolutes to your opinions will rile up feathers.

I answer absolutes with absolutes of my own. The very reason Im stating the surperiority of the ME1 squad is because so many people do it with the ME2 squad.

Besides, if this place was simple trade of opinions, I doubt Id hang around here as it would get boring. Sometimes its fun to get into a heated debate over your own views vs someone elses.

[Cutlass Jack]

Madecologist wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I think there really needs to be a spoof of that 'Cheaters' show in ME3. Where Liara (and/or Kai/Ash) and a cameraman jump out to confront Shep while he's on a date with his ME2 interest.

Bah, then Shepard says things were over and she was just too dense to see it. Then it becomes the Jerry Springer show. Shepard and Liara screaming about the relationship, some Latifa clone in the crowd going "you tell him girl!" while the audience booing and cheering at both.

Then when the fighting gets stale, the walk in the ME2 LI from the back stage to spice up things. I can see Tali screaming at Liara "where were you when Shepard needed you!?" with Liara counter accusing her of being a boyfriend thief, and then a chair fight breaks out between the two. With Krogan security trying to break up the two.

Then we find out Liara claims she got pregnant while pretending to read Shepard's mind in front of all the other squadmates, and it becomes the Maury show as we do paternity tests.

[MutantSpleen]

(Shrug)

I stayed faithful, I was glad to see Liara grow more of a backbone.  My Shepard is not the nicest girl, so maybe Liara's a little more up to speed with me now. I found all the ME2 romances lacking and creepy so I had no trouble staying faithful.

Though I had a little fling with Kelly. :innocent:

[Madecologist]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

No wonder people will argue against you.... assigning absolutes to your opinions will rile up feathers.

I answer absolutes with absolutes of my own. The very reason Im stating the surperiority of the ME1 squad is because so many people do it with the ME2 squad.

Besides, if this place was simple trade of opinions, I doubt Id hang around here as it would get boring. Sometimes its fun to get into a heated debate over your own views vs someone elses.

Well that is alright, I am just gonna toss my own in, counterargue, and throw in my analysis at the tension. Occassionally spicing it up with humour. Other than that carry on. Just making sure there is no suprises

[Mox Ruuga]

DRACO1130 wrote...

(incidentally, anyone else notice the 'consort' planning to leave the citadel just as Liara is closing in on the shadow broker - Coincidence ? I think not) 

Now there's an idea I hadn't considered! Kudos to Bioware if it turns out to be correct, hiding the SB in plain sight, without the revelation ending up yet another asspull.

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I think ME1, with its smaller, more dialogue, less "combat mission" reliant squadmates were far superior to ME2s squad, and I hope Bioware (now that theyve got the combat down, since its what ME2 almost revolves around) will return to a similar setup in ME3. Simply stating "the ME2 squad is deeper" isnt going to convince me of anything, and just make me state my opposing viewpoint. I mean I do have eyes, ears and most importantly a copy of ME2. I can see its failings for myself, and Id count most of ME2s shallow loyalty missions as one of them, to be sure.

I agree with this and want to add a little to it because some of the loyalty missions I thought were pretty well done. 

Mordin's for instance I thought showed what could have really been done with them  There was enough relevant dialogue before hand and enough of a mix between action and interaction in the missin itself to give the character some depth and personality.  I also enjoyed Samara's for the same reasons.  Her dialogue and story actually tied into her loyalty quest making her a more well rounded character.  

I thought Tali's mission itself was well done but there is nothing leading up to it and nothing to take away from it.  It is just sprung upon you and only serves as a "trigger" to allow the romance to begin, overall it didn't add much of anything to the character.  

Then you get ones like Miranda and Jacob where not only do they follow the Tali version of just kinda popping up randomly without any real connection to anything before or after it they were extremely over focused on combat and didn't really tell me anything about the character I didn't already know.

The loyalty missions suffered from the the same thing that other areas of the game suffered from, inconsistency and too little development.

[Madecologist]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Then we find out Liara claims she got pregnant while pretending to read Shepard's mind in front of all the other squadmates, and it becomes the Maury show as we do paternity tests.

Did we just introduce reality TV and talk shows to ME?
I can see Doctor Phil doing a special about Quarian love and the challenges of a relationship with someone who lives in a environment suit and has the wrong chirality. Mordin would guest star often.

[raz3r]

I don't understand Liara's reason (actually there are no reason at all) but I did trust her because I want to see what will happen in Mass Effect 3. This time the Shadow Broker should be dead so no apologizes...

[Nightwriter]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Oh, I know how you work, Dink. Spiting differing opinions and viciously dismissing counter arguments as ridiculousness right out of the chute is your opening right hook. He he.
 
But I’m not really interested in proving to you that my opinion is valid. And I’m sure Bioware isn’t really interested in proving to you that their deeper character development is valid, either.
 
All I’m saying is that you are rarely satisfied. This stagnates your arguments. Trying to make you happy with a story or a game is the equivalent of trying to cheer up Eeyore the Donkey.
 
It’s impossible. Even when he’s happy he’s miserable.  

Clearly you dont know how I work, since you cant clearly see "harshly respondin to arrogance with your own brand".

Plus its really quite pathetic how you fabricate this "forever disappointd" persona. Why do you think Im here Nightwriter? You dont think maybe its because, despite its flaws, I though ME1 was a superb game, easily ranking among my all time favourites? Oh wait, you mean its simply because I can actually recognise (like many others are doing, just as I ALWAYS SAID THEY WOULD) areas where ME2 failed miserbly. Thats what makes m "impossible to please"? Well like I said, ME1 did a fine job of pleasing me, and a fair few other folks actually. ME2? Not so much.

Listen, ME2 above all else focused on the shooter elements. The loyalty missions were shallow character errands that offer nowhere near the amount of character development you ascribe to them, and certainly nowhere near enough to overthrow ME1s squad. If they really we as in depth as you say, wouldnt they all follow the Thane/Samara model of being dialogue and roleplay heavy, rather than "cover based shooting" heavy with a few morsels of exposition here and there, all pointing towards the same thing that got you the damn errand in the first place.

I think ME1, with its smaller, more dialogue, less "combat mission" reliant squadmates were far superior to ME2s squad, and I hope Bioware (now that theyve got the combat down, since its what ME2 almost revolves around) will return to a similar setup in ME3. Simply stating "the ME2 squad is deeper" isnt going to convince me of anything, and just make me state my opposing viewpoint. I mean I do have eyes, ears and most importantly a copy of ME2. I can see its failings for myself, and Id count most of ME2s shallow loyalty missions as one of them, to be sure.

I agree that I wished some of the loyalty missions had had more to them. Jack’s in particular felt very short. But then again, I thought that the feel of every overall mission in the game was a bit short, which sucked cuz I loved the game.
 
However, I support loyalty missions in general. They help me bond. I like bonding. I felt like I didn’t do enough of it in game one.
 
As for me suggesting that you tend to be a consistently critical person, well… I’m sorry that I’m right about that. Because you do.  What you don’t understand is that I don’t think there’s anything at all wrong with that, or that you don't have anything good to say about the game. It’s your opinion. If nothing else you’re always a good sparring partner. I myself criticize the game quite often. Just not quite as much, or so vehemently.
 

[Haventh]

I don't like Oblivion, that doesn't mean that the game is shallow or bad. Just that it doesn't fit me. The fact that you don't like something, doesn't have to mean it is a bad product. In most cases it is not. It is just you who are clouded by your opinion and unable to form an objective response.



There isn't a character in Mass Effec that i don't like. Even the Turian Councilor i don't dislike, hes just made that good that he pisses of the majority of the gamers.



I am just into the way of not looking for faults, or things i don't like. And rather focus on the things i do like, and the things that isn't exactly to my liking, i try to form an objective view, though it it is very hard to do so.



I seriously reccomend people to find what they like, and focus on that instead of finding things you don't like. Everything will be so much more enjoyable.



Both Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 are great games, i had alot of fun with Mass Effect, the characters are great, and the story was quite epic. Mass Effect 2 i just like more, combat is more fun, well , and i like the characters more (i have said why before, i won't say again because i'm not into forcing my views on others).



I apologize when i called anyone an idiot, i was the idiot of sort, i just get so freaking mad when i see any form of bashing (not an excuse, just explenation).

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
But I’m not really interested in proving to you that my opinion is valid.

No need to validate an opinion, you are entirely within your rights to have an opinion.  Having an opinion though doesn't make it fact or correct,  Not yours, not Dinks, not Surfaces, not mine.

I prefer the ME1 characters and think ME2 was a very shallow game overall.  Just my opinion.

Hey, don't pull me in to this!

Though, if I can make a comment, while everyone is entirely entitled to their own opinion, it would be nice if there were more an exchange and acceptance of the opinions of others rather than bitter arguing about who's opinions are fact. Some people get absolutely violent when an opposing viewpoint is presented to them, not only denying it but hostily lashing back towards the person who made it.

That should stop.

Or at least the person who does it should be trolled. Whichever is funnier really.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Nozybidaj wrote...

*snip*

Here are my own thoughs on each individual loyalty mission, in no particular order:

Samara: Probably my favourite, since it was a nice change of pace from damn tedious cover hopping and shooting all the time. You learnt a little about Samara in the process and her hunt for Morinth. Not much though, since again, most of it must involve player action and in this mission thats talking to anyone BUT Samara. Talking to Morinth was interesting though, as was talking to some of the patrons.

Thane: Not one of my favourite characters definitely, but his loyalty mission again, like Samaras, was one of my favourites for not being about "shootkill everything until they are all dead from it". The "good cop/bad cop" interrogation was fun, and heavily involves one of ME2s best features: the interrupt.

Grunt: Nice to see Wrex again. Other than that, a total bore. Just a krogan ritiual involving waves of enemies and finally a thresher maw (which was tame by comparison to ME1, since it only spits). Oh, and then you kill Uvenk. Yay, if there was one thing I wanted from this mission, it was surely more combat to top it off with.

Mordin: Liked Mordins character, and again, it involved Wrex somewhat. Definitely one of the more "character heavy" loyalty missions IMO, since you get to see him chew over his past actions, and learn something about him. Still, the mission is predominantly combat, killing vorcha and krogan and varren.

Miranda: Yes, her whole deal with her sister is quite touching. Would be more so if the bulk of the mission wasnt a shootout in some warehouse/factory/cargo bay thing. Again, too damn reliant on shooting enemies.

Tali: Starts off well, with the whole trial. Seeing Talis grief over her father was very nice, but I didnt learn anything new about her. If not for the whole trial and the possible foreshadow of feature geth-quarian involvement in ME3, this would just be a "kill the geth on the ship" mission. One of my favourites, but in spite of the combat heavy stuff once again, definitely not because of it.

Zaeed: Pleh, if not for the flamethrower weapon, I wouldnt even dignify this one with an answer. Boooring.

Jacob: Some whacked out, sicko loyalty mission that involves shooting lots of mechs and nutcases, and some daddy issues. One of, if not the worst.

Jack: The idea, and some of the dialogue about the test facility were okay. Still, much of it is about shooting yet more krogan and vorcha and varren. Just a few details/excuses on why Jack is such a b*tch though, and she definitely wasnt a character I liked.

Garrus: Just like his recruitment, its more about combat than anything. One of the most boring by far.

Legion: Similar to Tali in that it might have some repurcussions. Other than that, too late in the game, and simply spammed me with geth. If not for the decsion you make, Id question if it even was a "loyalty mission".

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 21 février 2010 - 03:48 .

[Nightwriter]

Haventh wrote...

I don't like Oblivion, that doesn't mean that the game is shallow or bad. Just that it doesn't fit me. The fact that you don't like something, doesn't have to mean it is a bad product. In most cases it is not. It is just you who are clouded by your opinion and unable to form an objective response.

There isn't a character in Mass Effec that i don't like. Even the Turian Councilor i don't dislike, hes just made that good that he pisses of the majority of the gamers.

I am just into the way of not looking for faults, or things i don't like. And rather focus on the things i do like, and the things that isn't exactly to my liking, i try to form an objective view, though it it is very hard to do so.

I seriously reccomend people to find what they like, and focus on that instead of finding things you don't like. Everything will be so much more enjoyable.

Both Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 are great games, i had alot of fun with Mass Effect, the characters are great, and the story was quite epic. Mass Effect 2 i just like more, combat is more fun, well , and i like the characters more (i have said why before, i won't say again because i'm not into forcing my views on others).

I apologize when i called anyone an idiot, i was the idiot of sort, i just get so freaking mad when i see any form of bashing (not an excuse, just explenation).

Very good post. Very good attitude, too.

[Madecologist]

Well this thread is still tame. I mean anyone who knows my forum post history, I have trolled and flamebaited people that I thought were complete idiots. Considering I am civil so far, means I do not think anyone crossed a line... yet.... *gets his Troll outfit ready just in case*.

What I think we all can agree on, cheating/loyal is too strong a word. They should have used moving on/second chances. Heck I asked none ME players what they thought. Most find the idea it is cheating laughable (even a 75 year old woman laugh). Man I am sad when I discuss ME plotlines with the older generation of my family.

Modifié par Madecologist, 21 février 2010 - 03:49 .