116 réponses à ce sujet

[stillnotking]

Plan A was to send a signal to the keepers to open the Citadel mass relay and let all the Reapers in.  Fine, makes sense.

Plan B was to send an indoctrinated agent through the Conduit to open the mass relay when the keepers failed.  OK, makes a bit less sense (it's unclear why the Conduit is needed since it wouldn't exactly be difficult for a mind-controlled Spectre to infiltrate the Citadel, but whatever).  Still, suspension of disbelief goes a long way.

Plan C was, apparently, to abduct a few billion colonists and sneakily construct a human Reaper in a secret base in the galactic core.  This makes no sense at all.  If they wanted a human Reaper for whatever reason, the logical course of action would be to return to the Milky Way in force, subjugate and pacify the Council races, and then make whatever Reapers they feel like.  Setting aside the fact that we don't know how Harbinger woke up -- presumably this will be explained in ME3 -- his goal would be, like Sovereign's, to bring about the end of the cycle by awakening the other Reapers and opening the dark-space relay in the Citadel.  I can think of  many possible ways to do this, but none of them involve potentially tipping my hand by conducting massive (yet ineffectual) kidnappings with a proxy army.  Then there's the fact that the Collectors seem to have been around "off camera" during the events of ME1 (several characters in ME2 are familiar with them, including Shepard himself), which raises the question of why they weren't helping Saren in the first place.

ME2 is a great game and I enjoyed it tremendously, but I really hope they "retire" whoever wrote the main plot line before ME3 comes out.  If they don't, then we run a real risk of Plan D involving midi-chlorians.

[Aradace]

Just keep telling yourself...It's only science fiction...it's only science fiction...It's a game, and it's only science fiction.

[E96 B]

The more I think about the ME2 plot more doubtful I become.

[Paladus902]

When you put it like that I don't think the word sneaky applies. That said if you remember what EDI said, they may have tried to make a Prothean Reaper and failed, hence why they became subjugated and transformed into the Collectors. At least this way the Reapers could see if the humans would be worthwhile? I mean its not like they are in any rush.

[Homebound]

Ya...The game has a lot of plot holes when you look at it that way. I just hope you dont have to read a bunch of books just to get the story like Bungie did with Halo. The story has to be in the game or else it's just jibberish to the less-than obsessed players.

[stillnotking]

Aradace wrote...

Just keep telling yourself...It's only science fiction...it's only science fiction...It's a game, and it's only science fiction.

Sure.  But the quality of science fiction is determined by how well-written it is.  I'm not nerd-raging about this, just expressing disappointment that the narrative of the second game didn't live up to the standards of the first.

[Talogrungi]

As I understand it, Saren had been stripped of Spectre status before discovering exactly how the Protheans had sabotaged the Citadel and how to fix it. The player didn't find out 'til Ilos.

[dinin70]

I agrere with the OP, but maybe everything will be explained in ME3. The issue about ME2 is that the scenario is extremely unclear, very short, explaining almost nothing. Maybe to raise doubts about the possible outcomes in ME3? In this case it's a success.



In some french video game sites, people are speculating about several stuff with decent "proofs" (SPOILER: like TIM being a Reaper, or a Reaper ally)



The issue is that with such a small scenario in ME2, Bioware created a casted massive doubts about the situation, wanting people to have a great ME3! This can be a two-sided knife --> people are waiting it like a Messiah, but on the other hand, they have to build something HUGE for ME3.



Let's see in the future.

[Aradace]

stillnotking wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Just keep telling yourself...It's only science fiction...it's only science fiction...It's a game, and it's only science fiction.

Sure.  But the quality of science fiction is determined by how well-written it is.  I'm not nerd-raging about this, just expressing disappointment that the narrative of the second game didn't live up to the standards of the first.

Well, the disappointment you feel for the story is exactly what I feel in general over DA so now you know how I feel lol...Irrelevant yes, but still.  It's a good game, and that's all I care about.  The supposed "plot holes" that exist are only there to the semi to extremely obsessed ME players.  I enjoy the game, I enjoy the universe, but Im not going to obsess over plot holes and such just so I can find something wrong with the game.  If I wanted a "solid" story I'd play Final Fantasy or even some other RPG.  Otherwise, this is exactly what I expect "story wise" out of a game of this nature.

[xIxDarkWolfxIx]

They should say that the Human Reaper would be the 'Core' of the Reaper. But they will need to explain it well otherwise everyone will still be just as confused and dissappointed.



Also I agree with E96 B the more I think about it, the more it annoys me.

[Daerog]

The Reapers are lazy. They like to do their genocide plan with minimal effort.



That, or they are not as powerful as they like to say they are and can't just invade the galaxy from the outside in, making in more like a siege than anything else which is not as easy as just sneaking in. The Reapers have a better chance without freaking the galaxy out and having it unite against them instantly, the Reapers would lose too much.



They were able to destroy the Prothean civilization because they took out their central government and main fleet very quickly and unexpectedly with the Citadel relay. If they didn't, then the whole galaxy would have a single place to rally and hold the line.



In short, Reapers are not as powerful as they want others to believe, full on invasion would result in unified galaxy and many casualties on Reaper side, greater chance at failing then. Better to play it quiet as much as they can. They can no longer play quiet and are now impatient with what happened in ME1 and ME2, so they must invade now. Perhaps they have a limited time to do the genocide for some reason.

[Talogrungi]

In regards to the Collectors, it's logical to assume that they were always the plan. The Reapers were supposed to pop through the Citadel, wipe out all opposition then the Collectors (who had been working behind the scenes evaluating sentient physiology for years to select the right candidate) would be the heavy lifters in regards to rounding up the organics to be processed into Reaper goo.

Why they started taking outlying colonies before the Reapers had arrived? .. that I can't answer.

I could theorize that the Reapers are so arrogant and assured of their own superiority that the concept of failure just never occurs to them.

[ZennExile]

The reason the plot is so terrible isn't the result of one bad writer. It's the result of a backwards design method. They created these characters fleshed out their history and traits, then created the main plot elements around these charatcers. It's completely understandable that several different creative influences that aren't tied to a central idea will go in conflicting directions. So they attempted to "feather" the character plots together and birth a comprimise version of the over arching story out of it. As if the character plot elements could stand up on their own.



They shoulda had Drew write the over arching story with a set of characters in mind instead of having a different writer or group of writers for each character bring together completely unrelated story elements. It feels mostly forced and there is a severe lack of attention paid to detail.



I think it was a huge mistake to focus so much on the characters in the story rather than let the story bring the characters to life.

[joeymtl]

It seems they were more concerned about improving the gameplay and writing new character backgrounds and missions than working on the main story. I hope it will be richer and more logical and more focused in ME3. Even though a lot of damage is done already.

Modifié par joeymtl, 21 février 2010 - 10:23 .

[keginkc]

I'm not sure I even understand what Plan C was at this point.

[fusilero1]

Plan C was, apparently, to abduct a few billion colonists and sneakily construct a human Reaper in a secret base in the galactic core.  This makes no sense at all.  If they wanted a human Reaper for whatever reason, the logical course of action would be to return to the Milky Way in force, subjugate and pacify the Council races, and then make whatever Reapers they feel like.  Setting aside the fact that we don't know how Harbinger woke up -- presumably this will be explained in ME3 -- his goal would be, like Sovereign's, to bring about the end of the cycle by awakening the other Reapers and opening the dark-space relay in the Citadel.  I can think of  many possible ways to do this, but none of them involve potentially tipping my hand by conducting massive (yet ineffectual) kidnappings with a proxy army.  Then there's the fact that the Collectors seem to have been around "off camera" during the events of ME1 (several characters in ME2 are familiar with them, including Shepard himself), which raises the question of why they weren't helping Saren in the first place.

ME2 is a great game and I enjoyed it tremendously, but I really hope they "retire" whoever wrote the main plot line before ME3 comes out.  If they don't, then we run a real risk of Plan D involving midi-chlorians.

Well, I suspect that only a reaper may be able to open the Citadel, so perhaps they did it so that the human reaper could forcibly open the Citadel. This time without making a Saren avatar to get himself killed. Remember, Harbringer appears to be with the rest of the fleet rather than inside the Galaxy so he can't affect things directly.

[E96 B]

I just don't understand why it helps.

Habringer says "we will find another way", but it isn't really elaborated what that way was.

Was the new Reaper supposed to activate the citadel? Then how could they ever abduct enough people in the first place? Wouldn't you need a Reaper to attack Earth to make one in the first place?

Lacks subtlety anyway.

[aaniadyen]

stillnotking wrote...
Plan B was to send an indoctrinated agent through the Conduit to open the mass relay when the keepers failed.  OK, makes a bit less sense (it's unclear why the Conduit is needed since it wouldn't exactly be difficult for a mind-controlled Spectre to infiltrate the Citadel, but whatever).  Still, suspension of disbelief goes a long way.

Saren was flagged as being rogue. If he tried infiltrating the Citadel without concealing his identity, he'd have been aprehended. He probably didn't simply go in and open it at the beginning of the game because 1. He wasn't indoctrinated enough yet for the Reapers to trust him with it, and 2. Even assuming he was going to do that, it'd be suspicious as hell and he'd run the risk of being aprehended before he even got the chance. It would be like strolling up to a computer in the pentagon with detailed military reports. They'd never let anyone without proper clearance do that, even a Navy Seal.

stillnotking wrote...
Plan C was, apparently, to abduct a few billion colonists and sneakily construct a human Reaper in a secret base in the galactic core.  This makes no sense at all.  If they wanted a human Reaper for whatever reason, the logical course of action would be to return to the Milky Way in force, subjugate and pacify the Council races, and then make whatever Reapers they feel like.  Setting aside the fact that we don't know how Harbinger woke up -- presumably this will be explained in ME3 -- his goal would be, like Sovereign's, to bring about the end of the cycle by awakening the other Reapers and opening the dark-space relay in the Citadel.  I can think of  many possible ways to do this, but none of them involve potentially tipping my hand by conducting massive (yet ineffectual) kidnappings with a proxy army.  Then there's the fact that the Collectors seem to have been around "off camera" during the events of ME1 (several characters in ME2 are familiar with them, including Shepard himself), which raises the question of why they weren't helping Saren in the first place.

I'm with you on this one. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense at face-value. I've got a few guesses at explinations, but I'm really hoping they can explain it in ME 3 in a logical fashion that actually makes sense.

[babylonfreak]

If this helps...



1. Why do people think that even Saren could walk into the council chambers and fiddle with stuff without being suspicious? There are probably limits to SpecTRe authority. After all the council basically tells you in ME2 you can have your title if you stay in the Terminus. Remember C-Sec does not like SpecTRes, so it is entirely likely that they cannot act directly on the Citadel. In ANY case it would be damned suspicious if he took control of the Citadel systems, and no matter how bad-ass he is, I am sure the Council has a sizable force of C-Sec officers near the chambers, like the Prez has plenty of Secret Service guys hidden in closets around the White House. Lastly it seem that Sovereign has to assume direct control (sorry couldn't resist) of the Citadel to open the relay, that Saren could only open and close the Citadel, NOT the relay. Perhaps only a Reaper can fix the Prothean tampering.



2. If a Reaper is needed to open the relay, it is most likely the reason a Reaper was being created in the Core. Its mission would have been a second attack on the Citadel. The end seems to suggest the Reaper fleet is on the move, but it could just be a camera effect. It was rather hard to see relative movement. Even if they are on the move, it is quite possible they only started moving after Plan C (the Human Reaper unlocking the Citadel) failed. As far as "waking up" is is very likely the Reaper use the same kind of quantum entanglement comm that Normandy uses, and the issue is never to wake up the other Reapers, but to get them into the Galaxy, via activation of the Citadel relay.

[ZennExile]

keginkc wrote...

I'm not sure I even understand what Plan C was at this point.

No one does.  They didn't tell the story so all we can do is guess about what the point of all this crap was.  It's like they did everything in their collective power to ensure ME2 would have no tangeble impact on the Mass Effect Universe.  Like they wanted to keep the doors all the way open for ME3 (or they just took the EA road and decided to grab as much cash as they can from the IP as possible before it tanks completely).

But it is undeniable that a great deal of the story is missing and it makes the game feel void of substance.  Also makes it appear to be smaller that it really is.  ME2 has a lot of physical gameplay compared to a lot of action games on the market but even the solo experience in Call of Duty:  MW2 felt more massive.  Without doing the special OPS missions.

[Talogrungi]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

If the collectors decided on which race was to become a reaper, Sovereign is redundant. His signal may also have been sent by the collectors. I sincerely hope that the collectors have been repurposed for one of two things:
1) they are simply the newest generation of collectors that the reapers have always been using
2) they are conducting their experiments to find out how to become a prothean reaper in the end

I misspoke; I'm sure that the decision on which race was "worthy" was made by the Reapers based on the information that the Collecters had, erm .. collected.

[Admoniter]

stillnotking wrote...

Plan A was to send a signal to the keepers to open the Citadel mass relay and let all the Reapers in.  Fine, makes sense.

No arguement there.

Plan B was to send an indoctrinated agent through the Conduit to open the mass relay when the keepers failed.  OK, makes a bit less sense (it's unclear why the Conduit is needed since it wouldn't exactly be difficult for a mind-controlled Spectre to infiltrate the Citadel, but whatever).  Still, suspension of disbelief goes a long way.

Well it wouldn't be much of a story if the Normandy is on its shakedown run, which goes off without a hitch. Then turns around to jump out of the system but can't because the entire relay network is down. Next thing you know bam galaxy crushing, sentient being elimenating gigantic intergalactic robotic cuttlefish come and kill everyone.

So I'll take ME1s plot over that.

Plan C was, apparently, to abduct a few billion colonists and sneakily construct a human Reaper in a secret base in the galactic core.  This makes no sense at all.  If they wanted a human Reaper for whatever reason, the logical course of action would be to return to the Milky Way in force, subjugate and pacify the Council races, and then make whatever Reapers they feel like.  Setting aside the fact that we don't know how Harbinger woke up -- presumably this will be explained in ME3 -- his goal would be, like Sovereign's, to bring about the end of the cycle by awakening the other Reapers and opening the dark-space relay in the Citadel.  I can think of  many possible ways to do this, but none of them involve potentially tipping my hand by conducting massive (yet ineffectual) kidnappings with a proxy army.  Then there's the fact that the Collectors seem to have been around "off camera" during the events of ME1 (several characters in ME2 are familiar with them, including Shepard himself), which raises the question of why they weren't helping Saren in the first place.

Well first I think the Collectors are more of a contigency plan, incase the vanguard fails to open up the relay to dark space. I imagine that the Reapers now have to make a hard-burn for the Milky way which would take a long ass time. And  I imagine by reaper logic that the more time spent getting attempting to reach the mily way = more time for the organics to prepare. So attempting to open the Citadel relay (which is really the only use I can think of for the human-reaper.

That's not to say I disagree, the whole Collector plan is full of rediculousness.

[Faceman2006]

ZennExile wrote...

I think it was a huge mistake to focus so much on the characters in the story rather than let the story bring the characters to life.

QFT.

As for the plot of ME2, maybe the Reapers really are screwed? Maybe after Sovereign was destroyed, there was literally no way for them to get back into the Galaxy, so they've gone for the only option left - rebuilding another reaper within the Galaxy to try and open the Citadel relay again - that would be a hilarious ending / twist to ME3 - all through the game you're snubbed by people not believing you, until eventually it's just Shepard left on his own, ship taken off him, companions deserted him, just broken down in a heap. Meanwhile the Reapers hover at the edge of the Galaxy...

Reaper 1: So how do we get in?
Reaper 2: What?
Reaper 1: I said how do we get in?
Reaper 2: Er...weren't you handling that?
Reaper 1: What?...No!
Reaper 2: Oh.
Reaper 1 and 2: ...Bugger.
Reaper 3: Sooo...shall we go back home then?


But on a more serious note - is Harbinger meant to already be within the galaxy, or is it assumed he's with the main Reaper fleet? Because if he's with the main fleet, how could he communicate with the Collectors from outside the Galaxy?