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[aaniadyen]

stillnotking wrote...

Taggart_KT wrote...
I though Saren was unlocking the controls of the citadel so Sovereign could hack it, to undo what ever the prothean scientists did. Saren needed the geth to be able to take control of the citadel so that no-one would of been able to stop him taking control of the citadel. As I am guessing it would take sovereign time to take control of the rely network so he would need to be protected by having the citadel arms closed around him. If Sovereign just turned up without Saren beign in control, the citadel controllers would of just closed its arms and sovereign would remain locked out and vulnerable to the defence fleet.

OK... well if that's the case then Plan C would boil down to "make a new Reaper to replace Sovereign, and try again".  That is at least internally consistent -- if still revealing colossal bad planning on the Reapers' part, but that's explainable as arrogance or force of habit.  It's really hard to imagine Plan C actually succeeding (Harbinger couldn't know that the Council would be as blind and useless as they turned out to be, and it would take years of uninterrupted harvesting of human colonists to build the new Reaper).

So with that in mind, I think I'll withdraw my big objections.  The plot makes more sense than I realized.  Thanks to the posters here for constructively pointing some of this out.

Yes, but now there is another big issue with the plot. If all the collectors were doing was creating a new reaper to fulfil the same role as Sovereign what's different from the ending for ME 1? At the end of ME 2 it has a big ominous "the reapers are comming" message. If they could just travel to the galaxy without the relays...why wouldn't they do that at the end of ME 1 after you destroy Nazara? You're in the exact same situation, the plot wasn't really advanced in any significant way. It makes it feel like the collectors were just an excuse so you have something to fight while you form a team to deal with the reaper threat.

[Moorpheusl9]

aaniadyen wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

Taggart_KT wrote...
I though Saren was unlocking the controls of the citadel so Sovereign could hack it, to undo what ever the prothean scientists did. Saren needed the geth to be able to take control of the citadel so that no-one would of been able to stop him taking control of the citadel. As I am guessing it would take sovereign time to take control of the rely network so he would need to be protected by having the citadel arms closed around him. If Sovereign just turned up without Saren beign in control, the citadel controllers would of just closed its arms and sovereign would remain locked out and vulnerable to the defence fleet.

OK... well if that's the case then Plan C would boil down to "make a new Reaper to replace Sovereign, and try again".  That is at least internally consistent -- if still revealing colossal bad planning on the Reapers' part, but that's explainable as arrogance or force of habit.  It's really hard to imagine Plan C actually succeeding (Harbinger couldn't know that the Council would be as blind and useless as they turned out to be, and it would take years of uninterrupted harvesting of human colonists to build the new Reaper).

So with that in mind, I think I'll withdraw my big objections.  The plot makes more sense than I realized.  Thanks to the posters here for constructively pointing some of this out.

Yes, but now there is another big issue with the plot. If all the collectors were doing was creating a new reaper to fulfil the same role as Sovereign what's different from the ending for ME 1? At the end of ME 2 it has a big ominous "the reapers are comming" message. If they could just travel to the galaxy without the relays...why wouldn't they do that at the end of ME 1 after you destroy Nazara? You're in the exact same situation, the plot wasn't really advanced in any significant way. It makes it feel like the collectors were just an excuse so you have something to fight while you form a team to deal with the reaper threat.

OK so I finally finished this last night (yeah I know, 3 weeks is a long time )
Anyway - I was under the impression, the human reaper was being built to replace Sovereign as the vanguard, so that it could accomplish what Sovereign couldn't and open the Citadel relay.

The Reapers already had the Protheans under their control, why not use them? If we assume that the human Reaper was advanced to that stage in just 2 years, it's logical to assume it wouldn't take much longer to finish it - say 10 years tops. In Reaper terms, that's not long.

I reckon travelling to the Milky Way the slow way (which they are now forced to do) will use considerable energy reserves and possibly leave them in a weakened state upon arrival (something which we will have to use to our advantage if correct).

We've forced the Reapers into a corner now and they've only got 1 option to get to us, with just 1 chance to wipe us out.

I have some aside questions though - was Harbinger the Reaper built by the Protheans (as it looked very similar to the Collector General)? And also, where did Joker get those readings on the Reapers at the end of the game?

[aaniadyen]

Moorpheusl9 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

Taggart_KT wrote...
I though Saren was unlocking the controls of the citadel so Sovereign could hack it, to undo what ever the prothean scientists did. Saren needed the geth to be able to take control of the citadel so that no-one would of been able to stop him taking control of the citadel. As I am guessing it would take sovereign time to take control of the rely network so he would need to be protected by having the citadel arms closed around him. If Sovereign just turned up without Saren beign in control, the citadel controllers would of just closed its arms and sovereign would remain locked out and vulnerable to the defence fleet.

OK... well if that's the case then Plan C would boil down to "make a new Reaper to replace Sovereign, and try again".  That is at least internally consistent -- if still revealing colossal bad planning on the Reapers' part, but that's explainable as arrogance or force of habit.  It's really hard to imagine Plan C actually succeeding (Harbinger couldn't know that the Council would be as blind and useless as they turned out to be, and it would take years of uninterrupted harvesting of human colonists to build the new Reaper).

So with that in mind, I think I'll withdraw my big objections.  The plot makes more sense than I realized.  Thanks to the posters here for constructively pointing some of this out.

Yes, but now there is another big issue with the plot. If all the collectors were doing was creating a new reaper to fulfil the same role as Sovereign what's different from the ending for ME 1? At the end of ME 2 it has a big ominous "the reapers are comming" message. If they could just travel to the galaxy without the relays...why wouldn't they do that at the end of ME 1 after you destroy Nazara? You're in the exact same situation, the plot wasn't really advanced in any significant way. It makes it feel like the collectors were just an excuse so you have something to fight while you form a team to deal with the reaper threat.

OK so I finally finished this last night (yeah I know, 3 weeks is a long time )
Anyway - I was under the impression, the human reaper was being built to replace Sovereign as the vanguard, so that it could accomplish what Sovereign couldn't and open the Citadel relay.

The Reapers already had the Protheans under their control, why not use them? If we assume that the human Reaper was advanced to that stage in just 2 years, it's logical to assume it wouldn't take much longer to finish it - say 10 years tops. In Reaper terms, that's not long.

I reckon travelling to the Milky Way the slow way (which they are now forced to do) will use considerable energy reserves and possibly leave them in a weakened state upon arrival (something which we will have to use to our advantage if correct).

We've forced the Reapers into a corner now and they've only got 1 option to get to us, with just 1 chance to wipe us out.

I have some aside questions though - was Harbinger the Reaper built by the Protheans (as it looked very similar to the Collector General)? And also, where did Joker get those readings on the Reapers at the end of the game?

It's unclear who mande Harbinger. As for the Reaper schematics, I like to think that the Collector General sent them to the Normandy right after Harbinger relinquished control over him. So as kind of a final "**** you to the Reapers he sends you the information right before he gets blown to ****. Other than that...I'm not sure. Maybe they simply stole them from the Collector Base somehow.

[The Capital Gaultier]

stillnotking wrote...

Plan C was, apparently, to abduct a few billion colonists and sneakily construct a human Reaper in a secret base in the galactic core.  This makes no sense at all.  If they wanted a human Reaper for whatever reason, the logical course of action would be to return to the Milky Way in force, subjugate and pacify the Council races, and then make whatever Reapers they feel like.  Setting aside the fact that we don't know how Harbinger woke up -- presumably this will be explained in ME3 -- his goal would be, like Sovereign's, to bring about the end of the cycle by awakening the other Reapers and opening the dark-space relay in the Citadel.  I can think of  many possible ways to do this, but none of them involve potentially tipping my hand by conducting massive (yet ineffectual) kidnappings with a proxy army.  Then there's the fact that the Collectors seem to have been around "off camera" during the events of ME1 (several characters in ME2 are familiar with them, including Shepard himself), which raises the question of why they weren't helping Saren in the first place.

It makes perfect sense to me.  I can't be certain of the motives, but we do know a few things:
1)  The Reapers and Collectors coordinated their movements.
2)  The Collectors hit poorly-defended worlds or attempted to assassinate Shepard in weakly-held areas.
3)  The Collectors aren't a match for the fleets of any Council race.
4)  The Collectors were prepared to handle a massive influx of humans into the Reaper manufacturing facility.

To me, the most plausible explanation is that they were essentially biding their time until the Reapers returned.  With their manufacturing base set up, the Reapers decided to pick off a few colonies and get the Human Reaper project underway.  Shepard was also a target.  Once the Reapers had arrived, the Collectors would have had a facility ready to go to handle an influx of human subjects to liquefy and feed into the new Reapers.  They may have even had a few new Reapers ready to go by the time the invasion started.  This wouldn't have been a large enemy force to confront, but it would have complicated the Citadel war effort tremendously.

I would say that there is one prediction this theory could make: the Reapers would hit Human space first.  Though they lost their manufacturing facility, I don't think the Reapers will change this plan now.  Perhaps there will be a few minor efforts in other areas, but I think that the first major attack will advance into Human space - and it may prove decisive.

[nitefyre410]

Moorpheusl9 wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

Taggart_KT wrote...
I though Saren was unlocking the controls of the citadel so Sovereign could hack it, to undo what ever the prothean scientists did. Saren needed the geth to be able to take control of the citadel so that no-one would of been able to stop him taking control of the citadel. As I am guessing it would take sovereign time to take control of the rely network so he would need to be protected by having the citadel arms closed around him. If Sovereign just turned up without Saren beign in control, the citadel controllers would of just closed its arms and sovereign would remain locked out and vulnerable to the defence fleet.

OK... well if that's the case then Plan C would boil down to "make a new Reaper to replace Sovereign, and try again".  That is at least internally consistent -- if still revealing colossal bad planning on the Reapers' part, but that's explainable as arrogance or force of habit.  It's really hard to imagine Plan C actually succeeding (Harbinger couldn't know that the Council would be as blind and useless as they turned out to be, and it would take years of uninterrupted harvesting of human colonists to build the new Reaper).

So with that in mind, I think I'll withdraw my big objections.  The plot makes more sense than I realized.  Thanks to the posters here for constructively pointing some of this out.

Yes, but now there is another big issue with the plot. If all the collectors were doing was creating a new reaper to fulfil the same role as Sovereign what's different from the ending for ME 1? At the end of ME 2 it has a big ominous "the reapers are comming" message. If they could just travel to the galaxy without the relays...why wouldn't they do that at the end of ME 1 after you destroy Nazara? You're in the exact same situation, the plot wasn't really advanced in any significant way. It makes it feel like the collectors were just an excuse so you have something to fight while you form a team to deal with the reaper threat.

OK so I finally finished this last night (yeah I know, 3 weeks is a long time )
Anyway - I was under the impression, the human reaper was being built to replace Sovereign as the vanguard, so that it could accomplish what Sovereign couldn't and open the Citadel relay.

The Reapers already had the Protheans under their control, why not use them? If we assume that the human Reaper was advanced to that stage in just 2 years, it's logical to assume it wouldn't take much longer to finish it - say 10 years tops. In Reaper terms, that's not long.

I reckon travelling to the Milky Way the slow way (which they are now forced to do) will use considerable energy reserves and possibly leave them in a weakened state upon arrival (something which we will have to use to our advantage if correct).

We've forced the Reapers into a corner now and they've only got 1 option to get to us, with just 1 chance to wipe us out.

I have some aside questions though - was Harbinger the Reaper built by the Protheans (as it looked very similar to the Collector General)? And also, where did Joker get those readings on the Reapers at the end of the game?

 

My guess would be EDI got that data... The Collector general could not have done it  because the collectors where just drones they had  no free thought.  

[Moorpheusl9]

^ Well, I think the general might have done. He (?) looks sad just before he dies (and is released from control). I make this point because he shows emotion (whereas the others don't) and perhaps that could be extended to free thought.

But even so - the few seconds the general had to himself he was turning round to look at the flames of DEATH, not sending data readings to the Normandy.

However, TIM does say 'I'm analysing the data EDI sent me' (or something like that) so it's most likely that.

Modifié par Moorpheusl9, 21 février 2010 - 01:23 .

[aaniadyen]

nitefyre410 wrote...My guess would be EDI got that data... The Collector general could not have done it  because the collectors where just drones they had  no free thought.  

Plus, if you watch the cutscene, you notice that the glow in the Generals' eyes indicative of Harbinger's control doesn't go out until after he uses the computer. He doesn't do anything between the time he is freed, and he dies beyond turning his head. It couldn't have happened, but I like to think so.

[Moleculor]

aaniadyen wrote...
Yes, but now there is another big issue with the plot. If all the collectors were doing was creating a new reaper to fulfil the same role as Sovereign what's different from the ending for ME 1? At the end of ME 2 it has a big ominous "the reapers are comming" message.

They're no more 'coming' than they were at the end of ME1. They're currently stuck.

If they could just travel to the galaxy without the relays...why wouldn't they do that at the end of ME 1 after you destroy Nazara?

They can't.

[Torguemada]

Moleculor wrote...
They're no more 'coming' than they were at the end of ME1. They're currently stuck.

Did you completdly miss those thousands of Reaper powering up at the end.

[Moleculor]

Torguemada wrote...

Moleculor wrote...
They're no more 'coming' than they were at the end of ME1. They're currently stuck.

Did you completdly miss those thousands of Reaper powering up at the end.

Powering up does not mean 'able to move without killing themselves'. It means "Oh? *yawn* I'm awake, I'm awake. What? What's going on?" followed by discussion on what to do next. A little research into the Codex about how FTL flight works will show you exactly why they can't get to the galaxy without the relay

[tonnactus]

It also doesnt make sense,that organics(collectors) are used again after the keepers developed in a unexpected way.In the first game that was the reason why the souvereign used the geth.The mainstrory of Mass Effect 2 is just a bad joke.No doubt about that.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Moleculor wrote...

Torguemada wrote...

Moleculor wrote...
They're no more 'coming' than they were at the end of ME1. They're currently stuck.

Did you completdly miss those thousands of Reaper powering up at the end.

Powering up does not mean 'able to move without killing themselves'. It means "Oh? *yawn* I'm awake, I'm awake. What? What's going on?" followed by discussion on what to do next. A little research into the Codex about how FTL flight works will show you exactly why they can't get to the galaxy without the relay

You need to watch the ending again. They were right on the borders of the Milky Way. They are closer than they were in ME1.

[Moleculor]

tonnactus wrote...

It also doesnt make sense,that organics(collectors) are used again after the keepers developed in a unexpected way.

The collectors have been there since the last Reaping. How were the Reapers supposed to replace them? Magic? Besides, it's explained that the Collectors are really nothing more than fleshbags surrounding a bunch of technological brain-stuff anyhow.

PoliteAssasin wrote...
You need to watch the ending again. They were right on the borders of the Milky Way. They are closer than they were in ME1.

If they were 'just on the edge', then you wouldn't be able to see most of the galaxy. You'd only be able to see star clusters.

Modifié par Moleculor, 21 février 2010 - 10:35 .

[PingoBlack]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

You need to watch the ending again. They were right on the borders of the Milky Way. They are closer than they were in ME1.

They were not close at all.

From the perspective they can see the whole Milky Way, they are stil a huge distance away. In ME1 we had no point of reference as far as I remeber.

[Schneidend]

Plan C wasn't to create a human reaper. Creating new reapers is the whole point of the harvesting cycle. Mass Effect 2 wasn't about stopping another attempt by the reapers to enter the galaxy, it was about stopping a more immediate, reaper-related threat.

[Talogrungi]

Perhaps Sir Isaac Newton comes into play here.

We know there's no inertia in space. (unless you're flying the Normandy) so If the Reapers started moving, they would continue moving without burning fuel/energy unless a course-correction was necessary. Maybe they just gave a wee push and are slowly drifting towards the Milky Way.

And yeah, though our Galaxy was in "sight" at the end of ME2, it was still a looooong way off for conventional propulsions.

[PingoBlack]

Talogrungi wrote...

We know there's no inertia in space. (unless you're flying the Normandy) so If the Reapers started moving, they would continue moving without burning fuel/energy unless a course-correction was necessary. Maybe they just gave a wee push and are slowly drifting towards the Milky Way.

But sublight it would take forever, they would arrive after Shepard was dead from old age. And I mean at a serious fraction of c sublight.
FTL will propel them part of the way, but at Eezo core charge limit they again have to go subllight again ... so same problem.

They need a mass relay, either Citadel or something new.

[Fox234]

This whole story feels like a cop out honestly. They wanted to start a new "darker" story for the series but couldn't deny the ME1 story so just destroy pretty much everything from ME1 in a crappy opening sequence and call it a day. The game play is decent even if it does have some bugs but the whole thing feels like Mass Effect 1.5 and not a whole sequel since honestly nothing changed from the end of ME1 and what "revelations" were given to us made no sense even by sci-fi standards.

[babylonfreak]

Close to the galaxy? The fact that you can see almost the entire spiral means they have to be light-millenia away from it. And closer than in ME1? We have no idea *where* they are in ME1. At all.

[Moleculor]

Talogrungi wrote...

Perhaps Sir Isaac Newton comes into play here.
We know there's no inertia in space. (unless you're flying the Normandy) so If the Reapers started moving, they would continue moving without burning fuel/energy unless a course-correction was necessary. Maybe they just gave a wee push and are slowly drifting towards the Milky Way.
And yeah, though our Galaxy was in "sight" at the end of ME2, it was still a looooong way off for conventional propulsions.

I get what you're trying to say, but you're saying it wrong.

Inertia exists in space. It'd be the only thing keeping them moving if they were to suddenly start moving, and then not try to stop themselves.

What you're thinking of is 'there's no atmosphere in space to slow them down once they start moving'. And while that's -mostly- true (and more true in the darksapce between galaxies), space is not a vacuum. There's dust and gases and all sorts of other stuff out there to slow ships down once they start moving. Far less than an atmosphere, certainly, but they'd slow down over the thousands of years it would take them to reach the galaxy at non-FTL (or even FTL) speeds.

[Talogrungi]

PingoBlack wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

We know there's no inertia in space. (unless you're flying the Normandy) so If the Reapers started moving, they would continue moving without burning fuel/energy unless a course-correction was necessary. Maybe they just gave a wee push and are slowly drifting towards the Milky Way.

But sublight it would take forever, they would arrive after Shepard was dead from old age. And I mean at a serious fraction of c sublight. FTL will propel them part of the way, but at Eezo core charge limit they again have to go subllight again ... so same problem.

They need a mass relay, either Citadel or something new.

What's "forever" to a Reaper? .. they were definately moving so at the very least, we can say that they would eventually get here, though that doesn't lend much urgency to Shepard's crusade. Perhaps the slow drift is the ultimate contingency plan; a way of saying to the player "you might have slowed us down, but you haven't stopped us .. so try harder next game, k?"

[Talogrungi]

Moleculor wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Perhaps Sir Isaac Newton comes into play here.
We know there's no inertia in space. (unless you're flying the Normandy) so If the Reapers started moving, they would continue moving without burning fuel/energy unless a course-correction was necessary. Maybe they just gave a wee push and are slowly drifting towards the Milky Way.
And yeah, though our Galaxy was in "sight" at the end of ME2, it was still a looooong way off for conventional propulsions.

I get what you're trying to say, but you're saying it wrong.

Yah, it's late and I'm sleepy .. you're right, it should have been "there's nothing (or at least, not much) to impede inertia in space"

[Default137]

Actually.

Plan A was to have the Keepers open up the Relay for them, so they could kill everything in the Citadel, and then take out every system one by one with no resistance.

Plan B was formed after they realized Plan A no longer worked due to the Protheans, the only thing they knew was the Protheans somehow shut down the Keepers, and it involved something called a Conduit, as a GIANT SHIP flying around asking questions about what the Conduit is would be a bit awkward, they used an indoctrinated agent, this is why Saren is so desperate to find out what the Conduit is as well, rather then just opening up the Citadel at the start, because the Reapers are worried it could be a means to stop them anyway, and they want to know what it was.

Plan C is less of full of plot holes, and more lacking any real information, guesstimate from what we were told, the Collectors were left behind, most likely as a means to find out what would be the best species to Ascend when the Reapers did come back, and that honestly could be what they were doing. Its never really said they were trying to bring the Reapers back with their giant Human Reaper, for all we know, they were just testing to make sure we would be a good fit, and they found out we would be, so they got started on making the first Reaper for when the Reapers did arrive.

Who knows, maybe we reactivated the Omega 4 Relay for the Reapers when we went to go stop the Collectors.

Modifié par Default137, 21 février 2010 - 11:07 .

[Moleculor]

Talogrungi wrote...

What's "forever" to a Reaper?

Death. If they were truly immortal, they wouldn't need to stop in at the galaxy every fifty millenia or so.

.. they were definately moving

They were? I didn't see that. I saw lights coming on inside their shells, I saw their -arms- twitching a bit, and I saw some god rays, and the CAMERA pulled back through their fleet, but they didn't seem to have much if any forward motion. If anything there was more motion sideways than forward.

[rabbitchannel]

stillnotking wrote...

Plan A was to send a signal to the keepers to open the Citadel mass relay and let all the Reapers in.  Fine, makes sense.

Plan B was to send an indoctrinated agent through the Conduit to open the mass relay when the keepers failed.  OK, makes a bit less sense (it's unclear why the Conduit is needed since it wouldn't exactly be difficult for a mind-controlled Spectre to infiltrate the Citadel, but whatever).  Still, suspension of disbelief goes a long way.

Plan C was, apparently, to abduct a few billion colonists and sneakily construct a human Reaper in a secret base in the galactic core.  This makes no sense at all.  If they wanted a human Reaper for whatever reason, the logical course of action would be to return to the Milky Way in force, subjugate and pacify the Council races, and then make whatever Reapers they feel like.  Setting aside the fact that we don't know how Harbinger woke up -- presumably this will be explained in ME3 -- his goal would be, like Sovereign's, to bring about the end of the cycle by awakening the other Reapers and opening the dark-space relay in the Citadel.  I can think of  many possible ways to do this, but none of them involve potentially tipping my hand by conducting massive (yet ineffectual) kidnappings with a proxy army.  Then there's the fact that the Collectors seem to have been around "off camera" during the events of ME1 (several characters in ME2 are familiar with them, including Shepard himself), which raises the question of why they weren't helping Saren in the first place.

ME2 is a great game and I enjoyed it tremendously, but I really hope they "retire" whoever wrote the main plot line before ME3 comes out.  If they don't, then we run a real risk of Plan D involving midi-chlorians.

I assume it will take sometime for the Reapers to reach us from dark space. I'm guessing that the human Reaper is an attempt to understand the power of a species that is a potential threat. An additional Reaper in the region may also help pave the way for the income forces and address any emergencies. It may be a required vanguard. As for the Collector having been around "off camera", I think, given that the Geth are a hive mind, it wouldn't be far-fetched to assume the Reapers are too. Thus, it would be reasonable to assume that everything Sovereign knew, the rest of the Reapers knew too. And since the Collectors are the Reapers' underlings, they, in turn, would also know.