116 réponses à ce sujet

[Skilled Seeker]

tonnactus wrote...

It also doesnt make sense,that organics(collectors) are used again after the keepers developed in a unexpected way.In the first game that was the reason why the souvereign used the geth.The mainstrory of Mass Effect 2 is just a bad joke.No doubt about that.

You are a bad joke.


See what I did there? Its called OPINION. Don't like it fine but don't nerdrage.

[JrayM16]

I I agree that the end motivation for the collectors was really stupid.

[bluem00se]

 Your 'plan C' is not their backup plan. At the end of ME2, did you see that huge ARMY of reapers slowly moving closer? THAT was plan C: just effing take in on foot lol. The human abduction thing was probably just to make another reaper, and because the reapers probably took an interest in humans after Shepard destroyed Sovereign's ass in ME1.

[The Benster]

Moleculor wrote...

Torguemada wrote...

Moleculor wrote...
They're no more 'coming' than they were at the end of ME1. They're currently stuck.

Did you completdly miss those thousands of Reaper powering up at the end.

Powering up does not mean 'able to move without killing themselves'. It means "Oh? *yawn* I'm awake, I'm awake. What? What's going on?" followed by discussion on what to do next. A little research into the Codex about how FTL flight works will show you exactly why they can't get to the galaxy without the relay

I don't think that the Reapers are stuck. Sure, their instantaneous method of transportation isn't available to them, but they aren't stuck. Think about it. Way back when, billions upon billions of years ago, they first came up with the whole scheme. So they built the citadel to serve as their gateway to the milkyway. But for mass relays to work, you need two in order to go anywhere. At some point, they had to travel out to dark space to construct the mass relay (that is paired with the citadel. So it has to be possible for them to travel that great distance.

The only other way would be to create some kind of worm hole to dark space. Maybe that's what is going on with halstrom's "sun"

[mhenders]

Plan B was to send an indoctrinated agent through the Conduit to open the mass relay when the keepers failed.  OK, makes a bit less sense (it's unclear why the Conduit is needed since it wouldn't exactly be difficult for a mind-controlled Spectre to infiltrate the Citadel, but whatever).  Still, suspension of disbelief goes a long way.

Plan B never really made any sense at all, either. Your parenthetical is right. The Conduit doesn't make sense. The plot of ME1 is like this:

http://xkcd.com/530/

Why didn't Sovereign just ring the doorbell? When Saren was a Spectre in good standing, Sovereign could have just sent Saren into the Council Chambers at any time and used the master control console of the Citadel to open up the Reaper Relay.

[ZennExile]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

It also doesnt make sense,that organics(collectors) are used again after the keepers developed in a unexpected way.In the first game that was the reason why the souvereign used the geth.The mainstrory of Mass Effect 2 is just a bad joke.No doubt about that.

You are a bad joke.


See what I did there? Its called OPINION. Don't like it fine but don't nerdrage.

The difference is his opinion is based on evidence that supports it.  Yours just got ripped out of your crap cannon and splattered all over the forum.

[b1n0ry]

A plot hole would be... how did Harbinger learn that humans (particularly Shepard) destroyed Sovereign? Like how did the knowledge that Sovereign was destroyed by humans reach Harbinger since it is in Dark Space which is far beyond the Milky Way Galaxy (it would make sense if Quantum Entangling data is a form of communication for the Reapers). But who gave that knowledge to Harbinger? The Collectors?  

Yeah I agree... Sovereign and the reapers aren't as DIVINE and GODLY as they make themselves sound. If Sovereign's intelligence and reasoning are beyond that of any organic life, it would not allow for failure, e.g. during the attack on the citadel, Sovereign would've had Saren, the Geth, and the Collectors (they are just tools after all) by his side... which would've greatly improved the success of capturing the citadel. 

It seems like Sovereign captured the essence of a retarded species and therefore his reasoning and methods are messed up....

[expanding panic]

The only people that know that the reapers actually exist is Shepherds old and new crew and Tim. As far as everyone else in the universe knows the collectors are working alone from what ever reason to capture humans. The don't know that there is an army of reapers coming. I also believe that no one knows the reapers actually took a hard core stance in the collecting the humans, they just said get it done.

[Moorpheusl9]

The human reaper was never meant to be anything other than a replacement for Sovereign - the last thing the Reapers want to do is to march in on 'foot' - that's gonna use energy reserves and will leave them weakened in my opinion and that could very well be a major thing to exploit come ME3.



The collectors were already under the reapers' control - and so after Sovereign failed, they employed them to replace it. They failed and now that they have no one 'on the inside' they've gotta do things the hard way.



That is what the purpose of the human reaper was. No more, no less.

[b1n0ry]

babylonfreak wrote...

They probably left Sovereign behind as a contingency plan in case something went wrong with the Citadel, but since they were totally overconfident he was the only contingency they had, and he might not have been the brightest Reaper. Something did go wrong and he got flustered and started a lot of plans to figure things out. We know how that ended for him. So now Harbinger (who is in Darkspace with the rest of the Reapers) is forced to scramble for a plan C they had never even planned for, since plan A was obviously going to work as it always had, and plan B was Sovereign's problem. The last asset they have left in the galaxy are the Collectors, basically a biology lab with no real military value or power. He quickly cobbles together the idea of a Human Reaper to replace Sovereign.

We know how that turned out.

yes that makes a lot of sense. cheers.

[BatarianBob]

Using people as building material is a stretch, but other than that I don't see any major problems in "plan c".



They lost Sovereign, so they're replacing it. Probably to do what Sovereign failed to do.



Not an ambitious plot, but it's straight forward enough.

[mcsupersport]

tonnactus wrote...

It also doesnt make sense,that organics(collectors) are used again after the keepers developed in a unexpected way.In the first game that was the reason why the souvereign used the geth.The mainstrory of Mass Effect 2 is just a bad joke.No doubt about that.

Please remember when the Collectors were pressed into service was 50,000 years ago, long before the Reapers knew anything had happened to the Keepers.

Plan A ----Send the signal to the Keepers.
Plan B---Use organic race to clear the way to the Citadel--Rachni, and possibly others, but only Rachni are known now.
Plan c--Use Geth and Saren to open the Citadel.
Plan D--Replace the killed reaper, and test genetics out of all known races, and then open Citadel.
Plan E--Probably some sort of direct flight, which may end up being their weakness draining their powers, allowing them to be beaten.



In Plan C  Saren didn't just walk onto the Citadel and open the gate because of two reasons.  One is Soverign didn't know if he would actually do it, and two Soverign didn't know what happened to cause the gate to not open in the first place.  So he sent Saren to find the Protheans data so he could figure out why the signal didn't work and how the Protheans did what they did, so it could be corrected and prevented in the future.  As to why Soverign didn't just fly up and attack, well he probably would have been killed or locked out of the Citadel if they closed it before he could have gotten in. 

As far as Plan D goes, why not, since they stayed in the Traverse who actually cared that a few humans went missing, especially since the Collectors had killed Shepard.   Also the Collectors had ONE ship, it seems, so how much help wold that have been to Soverign in the attack on the Citadel??   Too me the Collectors are the arms and legs for the Reapers, used as remote control cars.  

[TyDurden13]

stillnotking wrote...

Plan A was to send a signal to the keepers to open the Citadel mass relay and let all the Reapers in.  Fine, makes sense.

Plan B was to send an indoctrinated agent through the Conduit to open the mass relay when the keepers failed.  OK, makes a bit less sense (it's unclear why the Conduit is needed since it wouldn't exactly be difficult for a mind-controlled Spectre to infiltrate the Citadel, but whatever).  Still, suspension of disbelief goes a long way.

Plan C was, apparently, to abduct a few billion colonists and sneakily construct a human Reaper in a secret base in the galactic core.  This makes no sense at all.  If they wanted a human Reaper for whatever reason, the logical course of action would be to return to the Milky Way in force, subjugate and pacify the Council races, and then make whatever Reapers they feel like. 

Well, although I think ME holds up reasonably well, you can nitpick pretty much any big sci-fi epic apart. But, I think you have some some things wrong here.  First of all, the reapers are returning to the Milky Way in force, as seen at the end of ME2.  Presumedly without the mass relays that can take some time.

Second - the Collector agenda wasn't Plan C of the invasion.  We are told in ME1 the reapers need organics for some purpose, which is why they propogate an extinction cycle rather than just wiping them out for good.  IN ME2, we find out what they need them for is reproduction.  The human reaper was part of this reproductive process, not a part of the invasion of which Soverign was the vanguard.  The Collectors have been operating for some time prior to the events of ME1 and ME2 - we get dialogue (from TIM and MIranda toward the beginning of the game) to the effect that they have been around for a long time, looking for species and organics with specific genetic abnormalities.  They have always been there (well at least since the Prothean reaper experiment failed), surveying species and evaluating their potential to become a reaper.

50K years ago the Protheans were subjugated, repurposed and left behind at their base in the galactic core to make a Prothean reaper.  For whatever reason, they turned out not to be viable, so they were repurposed into Collectors.  From that point on the Collectors began surveying races, looking for one that would be viable to become a reaper.  Meanwhile, Soverign is awakened and tries to contact the keepers to open the Citadel relay, only to find their signal has been changed, and no longer responds to him, so the reaper fleet is stuck in dark space.  So over the course of however long (do we know?) he begins building forces to capture the Citadel and open the relay manually (the plot of ME1).  The Collectors continue to surve races for viability.  Then Shepard and the Alliance destroy Soverign.  All the sudden, the Collectors think they have their candidate in humanity, so they start abducting colonies wholesale.  While the reaper fleet is still stuck in dark space because of the keepers' signal change, the Collectors  go about their business.  If they can succeed in constructing a new reaper, great - perhaps it can accelerate the rate of the main force's return.  If not, they can alwas start over once the galaxy is subjugated.

As pertains to Saren - I take it the Conduit was really just a nice back door for a good sneak attack.  He may have been able to move about the Citadel freely, but I really doubt he could have taken the controls by force himself.  He needed to get an army  of hostile synthettics in.

Modifié par TyDurden13, 22 février 2010 - 03:48 .

[CatatonicMan]

From what I can tell, the original ME story was likely not the first of Sovereign's attempts to summon the Reaper fleet.



I'm not sure of this, of course, but it is likely that Sovereign (or at least some reaper) tried to activate the citadel relay sometime before the start of the Rachni wars. When the relay failed to respond, the next step was probably to try to take over or destabilize Council space to allow access to the citadel, so they corrupted the Rachni and forced a war. That plan was ruined by the emergence of the Krogan.



What comes after could also have been another plan to destabilize Council space, though this is pure speculation and likely completely wrong. It is possible that Sovereign could have worked to provoke the Krogan into starting another war, only to be foiled by the emergence of the Turians and the use of the genophage.



The Collectors appeared sometime after the Krogan wars, but this seems to be unrelated to Sovereigns plans. Maybe Harbinger decided that Sovereign was taking too long, or maybe this was an alternate plan in case Sovereign failed in the more direct attempt.



Anyway, the next part was using the obedient Geth army (a relatively recent occurrence) and Saren to directly assault and fix the citadel. That failed.



The latest attempt with the human reaper might have simply been a faster alternative than trying to fly in. It also might have produced some unknown benefit aside from having a functioning reaper working in citadel space.

[porky88]

Perhaps a reaper is only as strong as the organics used to make it. A human was largely responsible for killing the reaper Sovereign. The first reaper death in along time I believe. It makes sense that they would be curious about humans and perhaps humans are a stronger species than most of the aliens give credit for.

The Protheans were made into collectors because in large part, they were the most advanced civilization to ever exist. Well to our knowledge as a player. While I do think that there is another species out there that was more advanced than the protheans, as hinted too, I think it's safe to say that the Reapers were very impressed and intrigued by them. Afterall, they did delay the next invasion before they died out.

I guess my point is. The Reapers were probably experimenting on humans because they see humans as a "worthy" asset or tool in the future. Much like the Protheans.

Just theories. Afterall, the third game isn't out so I tend to think that judging what the devs are doing right now is like judging what the writers of a serialized tv show are doing in episode five of a 21 episode season.

It is worth nothing that you'll have to read books, play other future spin-off games, maybe movies tv shows etc... if you really want to know everything there is about Mass Effect. This game triology is about Commander Shepard. It's his story. Not the Collectors. Not the Reapers. Not other Humans.

Modifié par porky88, 22 février 2010 - 04:33 .

[Eumerin]

Talk to Wrex while you're walking around the Council Chamber in ME1, and he mentions that you're probably being watched by snipers.

So no, Saren couldn't just walk into the Council Chambers and casually take control of the Citadel.  He needed to bring an army through, which was why he needed the Conduit.

As for what the Collectors were up to, at this point we really don't know.  We can make guesses, but that's all they really are.  ME3 may end up revealing that EDI's various hypothesis were all completely wrong.  And if she's right, then doesn't it make sense to take out the race that stopped you *before* you start your giant galactic invasion?  It's kind of like Salarians and war - by the time the Salarians declare war on you, they've already arranged things so that you've lost (even if you don't realize it yet).  The Reapers are coming to make war on the galaxy - wouldn't it make sense to get rid of those trouble-making humans first?

Bonus points for the Reapers due to the fact that if the Reapers issued a statement along the lines of, "We'll leave the rest of you alone if you just give us the humans," half of the known galaxy would probably agree to the terms...

[kraidy1117]

I love how if people don't understand something they label it as a plot hole.



First lets look at there second plan. No one knew what the hell the conduit was, if Saren knew it was a back door to the Citadel then there would be no need for it, but he did not. Also Shepard and his crew where on the Citadel before Saren was and Saren coming to the Citadel after the hearing (even tho he was not found guilty at that time, but knew soon he would be) would just be stupid. So again that is not a plothole.



As for the collectors. They have been operating for 50 thousand years, asking various races for items in exchange for advanced technology. EDI confirms that the Collectors tried to make a Prothean reaper but failed. That is why the Reapers re purposed them. Mordin goes into great detail about this and even tells the player how it was done. The likely reason why the Collectors where doing this was so the Reapers did not make the same mistake they made with the Protheans. Now as we all know, it was humans that killed a reaper, and there vanguard. Vigil even states that from time to time the Reapers wake up to check on progress. Most likely Harbinger contacts the Collector General. Again, no plotholes.



The plan was to grow, NOT build a new Reaper. Again when you meet the Human-Reaper EDI even states they are growing the Reaper and it is in a Fetus stage. What was the purpose of this new Reaper you might ask. Simple, this is how Reapers "reproduce" again stated by EDI. Remember they lost a Reaper and a Vanguard. Most likely this new Reaper was going to be the new Vanguard or to they had a new Reaper. There is no plothole there.



The other people are poking at is how would the Collectors attack Earth? This is very simple. Throughout the game, we witness that the Collectors don't need the relays expect to get back home (simply because the core would be too dangerous. We also know they can cut out communication. All they would need to do is cut communication, slip into the Sol system and take as many humans possible which would be alot. Soon as heavy reinforcements come up (which would only be cruisers) the Collectors could easily destroy them or leave. Again no plot hole.



EDI and Mordin answer alot of questions on the Reapers and Collectors, because heaven forbid we have to pay attention to conversations to get the story. The thing is ME2 story was very good, I enjoyed it alot better then ME, and this is coming from a writers stand point. The point of ME2 was to expand the Galaxy which it did. We learned a hell of alot of detail on Alien culture and the main focus on the characters is what is needed in the second part of the trilogy. ME3 will be stopping the reapers once and for all, it will most likely be more story heavy then ME2 which means less character dev, now iminge if ME2 was like that? ME3 would suck, because most likely some key characters will die in ME2 regardless of choices.



The only real plothole that I have seen in this game is how the hell can people like Miranda run around in space with a face mask and not get injured by the coldness in space >_>