222 réponses à ce sujet

[Nautica773]

the_one_54321 wrote...

What exactly is meant by "linear?" Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as true openness in a digital single player game. All you have is a flow chart of options, perhaps with multiple end points through multiple paths. But each of those paths is "linear" in it's own way.

So what is the intended meaning of "linear" and "not linear?"

I think it's a catchphrase more than anything else. You know, along the lines of "innovative!" and is just meant to get people excited despite not communicating anything about the game.

[the_one_54321]

slimgrin wrote...
I can't believe this is so confusing to people.

Ok, well it's not confusing, but you are framing your thoughts poorly.

slimgrin wrote...
Look at the leveling up system: how many options do you really have? Few. So you call it simplified or LINEAR.

That really has nothing to do with linearity. Linearity involes the determination of pathways through the game. It is not related to leveling mechanics.

slimgrin wrote...
Look at the level design. You couldn't get lost if you tried. You can cover the entire space of omega in about 7 minutes. Done. You've seen it all.

So the levels are offer little in the way of variation. That's a fair criticism.

slimgrin wrote...
And the side missions: Find an item on your way to the end of a level, and run into the person in the same hub to deliver item. Done.

The side missions are not terribly in depth. Also a fair criticism. However, with this and the last point, you should probably consider that BioWare was deliberately going for a shooter type game in terms of level stylization.

slimgrin wrote...
The side missions for Liara are a joke compared to the city side missions in ME1

This doesn't really say much of anything except to state the opinion you have about it.

slimgrin wrote...
Look. ME2 is a terrific game. But they oversimplified in areas they didn't need to.

I'm not even sure if this relates to linearity at all.

[tetracycloide]

Games piecewise linear, yes.  Sand-box gains free-form.  Expense of broken narrative, credibility.  Events wait for PC?  Why?  Leave incomplete objectives.  Return weeks, months later.  Still there.  Still waiting.  Breaks fourth wall.

[LoweGear]

slimgrin wrote...

So is Arkham asylum, which afforded the player a bit more exploration than ME2 as well.

Not to bash Arkham Asylum (since I thoroughly enjoyed it), but Arkham Asylum was able to give you the aspect of exploration because you were basically exploring a single small area, which is the entire island of Arkham. And most of the time, you had to backtrack between places you've visited before in order to progress in the game (though they did a good job of making each area at least play differently when you got back).



There's really nothing wrong with a linear game though: when done right linearity in games allow for tighter scripted and more intense experiences while still allowing wiggle room for player choices. Many of the titles considered to be the best FPS games of all time, like F.E.A.R., Half-Life, Call of Duty and others are very linear games afterall, and some of the games with the best stories are also linear, like Dead Space.

[Spinnazie]

Ryzaki wrote...

I find it hilarious though how some BioWare fans slam on Jrpgs for being linear. Like uh...hello?

Though yes all BioWare games have a great deal of linearity to them.

They're more linear then Bioware games, so whats wrong with that argument?

[Nautica773]

slimgrin wrote...

Perhaps linear is the wrong word. Predetermined might be better.

I know its more of an action shooter. I simply think the game would be even better with a more complex stat system, larger levels to explore, and more in depth side quest.

I realize I'm picking on a masterpiece here.

Wanting more is a fairly common reaction. I wouldn't say Mass Effect is a masterpiece, but it is a solid game considering all the factors. I think it's fair to criticize the lack of level variability (though they did make a good effort in that regard with the various N7 missions). I also think the condensed leveling system is a step backwards from the original game and if the side missions are going to be so short, it would have been nicer to have more of them.

[the_one_54321]

Spin****e wrote...
They're more linear then Bioware games, so whats wrong with that argument?

What's wrong with it is that they almost never say it the way you just did.
90% of the time it's "ZOMG JRPG SUXORS because they are linear and WRPGs aren't!" [insert funny/insulting image as necessary]

[Ryzaki]

Spin****e wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I find it hilarious though how some BioWare fans slam on Jrpgs for being linear. Like uh...hello?

Though yes all BioWare games have a great deal of linearity to them.

They're more linear then Bioware games, so whats wrong with that argument?

Damnit.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[Seanylegit]

They may be, but they're also still the ****. So I don't have a problem with it.

[Nautica773]

Ryzaki wrote...
Tis hypocritical. "OMG JRPGS are sooo linear!" and ME isn't? Really? Doing the recruiting quests in a different order and killing someone now instead of later does not a great deal of nonlinearity make. (Paragon and Renegade on the other hand offer some non-linearity)

Also BioWare allows you to do the middle (and its usually the recruiting phase) in any order you like. However the intro and ending with a very slight variation often play exactly the same.

And yeah pretty much what the one said. Damn ninja'd.

Aren't more JRPGs focussed on telling stories about teenagers coming of age and the power of love and friendship and whatnot? I thought the general dislike came from the ridiculous stories and annoying characters than any pretense of linearity. 

[Grand_Commander13]

While it's true that a completely nonlinear computer game is impractical (not impossible, but the development costs would likely be prohibitive to make it really fun), you need to make a distinction between the purely linear A then B then C then D then E then F structure, Bioware's A then B then C, D, and E in any order before finishing with F, and the A, then any combination of B, C, and D, then E, then any combination F and G, then H.

[LoweGear]

Nautica773 wrote...
(though they did make a good effort in that regard with the various N7 missions).

The N7 missions are one of the things that make me like ME2's move to linearity. Sure they're short, but they don't involve having to drive the Mako to get to them (I use the Mako just to get from point to point on a map anyway), and many of them have unique mechanics or ambience that break the standard Mass Effect mission mold - my favorite missions are the ones where you fight Geth in extreme fog where you can hardly see anything, and one where you feed power cells to a YMIR Mech (something about having a Heavy Mech on your side that you don't need to use AI Hack on is rather appealing to me).

I do feel that the potential of the side missions is underutilized, and that much could've been done to further the variety involved. But all in all, for me it's way better than the mission structure in ME1.

[Ryzaki]

Nautica773 wrote...

Aren't more JRPGs focussed on telling stories about teenagers coming of age and the power of love and friendship and whatnot? I thought the general dislike came from the ridiculous stories and annoying characters than any pretense of linearity. 

Yeah but you get those who try to use the linearity as an excuse. "OMG the story never changes!" or the infamous: "It's an boring interactive movie!!!" *sighs*

[the_one_54321]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...
While it's true that a completely nonlinear computer game is impractical (not impossible, but the development costs would likely be prohibitive to make it really fun), you need to make a distinction between the purely linear A then B then C then D then E then F structure, Bioware's A then B then C, D, and E in any order before finishing with F, and the A, then any combination of B, C, and D, then E, then any combination F and G, then H.

I'd argue that the only way to do this would be to have the player input personal text responses, perhaps with suggested lines of thought given by the game. Then the game interprets the custom text responses and responds accordingly. That would be epic on an unheardof scale, but is also probably well beyond the capabilities of current development.

[orpheus333]

Linearity encourages story-telling and i think personally its a matter of taste. Bethesda provide for an off the rails experiance, Bioware and Obsidian cater to those that enjoy a deeper more focused experiance. I think linear gameplay also gives greater freedom to develop atmosphere. ME2, for me, has a far more developed and believable role-playing experiance due to its specific goals compaired to Fallout 3 for example which i enjoyed equally but left me wanting for specific goals throughout my adventure.

Alot of the time in Bethesdas RPGs I find myself not roleplaying due to their disperate story arcs. The character i am playing becomes more of an avatar rather than a character with oppurtunities to explore its personality.

Modifié par andyr1986, 21 février 2010 - 06:56 .

[vhatever]

All games have some degree of linearity in some aspect of their play. Bioware isn't particularly known for a high or even significant degree of linearity.

[Nautica773]

LoweGear wrote...
The N7 missions are one of the things that make me like ME2's move to linearity. Sure they're short, but they don't involve having to drive the Mako to get to them (I use the Mako just to get from point to point on a map anyway), and many of them have unique mechanics or ambience that break the standard Mass Effect mission mold - my favorite missions are the ones where you fight Geth in extreme fog where you can hardly see anything, and one where you feed power cells to a YMIR Mech (something about having a Heavy Mech on your side that you don't need to use AI Hack on is rather appealing to me).

I do feel that the potential of the side missions is underutilized, and that much could've been done to further the variety involved. But all in all, for me it's way better than the mission structure in ME1.

I agree. Many of the N7 missions showed a remarkably amount of creativity and interesting design but after the 10 or so minutes it took to complete them, that was it. It would be nice if they could expand on these concepts in the third, perhaps tell more intricate or involved N7 missions that are just as well designed but are tied closer to the story like traditional sidequests.

Ryzaki wrote...
Yeah but you get those who try to use the linearity as an excuse.  "OMG the story never changes!" or the infamous: "It's an boring interactive movie!!!" *sighs*

Oh. Yeah, I'd be annoyed if the complaint were just 'they're more linear!' But I hate when anybody complains about linearity since it neither communicates what they're actually frustrated with and reinforces this concept of some mystical "non-linear" quality every game should for some reason strive for. 

[Hizoka003]

that is why the game is so short an linear

[Ryzaki]

Also:

Oh and this: http://gza.gameriot...._1257581825.png Too big to post.
*runs*

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[lumen11]

^For the two empty spaces:
-Cultists
-Dragon

slimgrin wrote...

I can't believe this is so confusing to people.

Ah, the irony...

Modifié par lumen11, 21 février 2010 - 07:07 .