222 réponses à ce sujet

[Varenus Luckmann]

Riot Inducer wrote...
on the linearity...isn't a story by definition linear?

Not necessarily. A non-linear story isn't a story about a specific set of events in a specific timeframe. A non-linear story can be a story about an object, a person or a place. Most good roleplaying scenarios are non-linear. This is extremely hard to do on a computer, however, since you don't have a DM that can make stuff up on the spot, or judge wheter or not it makes sense for actions to be set in motion outside the player's control, or if they are still consistent (since they are as-of-yet unrevealed to the player(s)) and can be applied at a later time (such as the state of a town in the game universe).

What is more important in a PC game is to convey a feeling of nonlinearity. The linearity is still there, but it should appear as if it is not. Such as Baldur's Gate, that had a deep feeling of nonlinearity, but you were gently tugged in the right direction(s) from the start.

So you didn't go to Friendly Arm Inn at first? You ended up in Nashkel? Well no problem, turns out that they've been having problems there...

[ImperialOperative]

Hizoka003 wrote...

you can continue to dump on them but Bilzzard will keep laughing at you all the way to the bank


its funny how single people think they are the ones who are enlightend when, yet they ignore what real. Personaly i do not like wow anymore they changed the game too much, but that does not change the fact that its the most played game in the world right now. You dump on the Wii, but yet more people own Wiis then PS3 and Xbos combined, and its not becasue of "stupid" people as you say, it becasue they want GAMEPLAY, not CoD4 clones every 3 months.



Gameplay needs to be the focus of a game, not story, not charater development, but GAMEPLAY. The other things are fantastic in games, but they can never trup how the game plays, no matter how great the story is if the game is a turd to play its a turd game.

You keep correlating Wii success to good gameplay.  It's hilarious.

[Varenus Luckmann]

slimgrin wrote...
Profitability lies in accessibility, and
action oriented titles with shallow stories and easygameplay are much
more accessible.

Which is the inherent problem in a wide range of
things, not just gaming.

Hizoka003 wrote...
you can continue to dump on them but Bilzzard will keep laughing at you all the way to the bank

You're judging success based on monetary gain. McDonalds is one of the most profitable corporations in the world; Yet you'd never argue that their food is healthy.

Just because something is popular or profitable, in no way means that it is good, healthy or actually contributing anything to civilization.

[Ryzaki]

Nautica773 wrote...
I did notice. Makes me sad that these companies are focusing so much attention on a market that really isn't that savvy when it comes to the medium. Mercifully, developers are free from publishers, so I don't have to worry about Mass Effect with a Wiiwand or Dragon Age and the new Wiield and Wiord attachments.

I won't lie. This made me LOL.

I can just imagine: "DA2 with the Wiimote! Now you cast your spells in REAL TIME!" 

[Hizoka003]

Nautica773 wrote...

Hizoka003 wrote...
they are getting more gamers becasue they are making gameplay the top priority, they make games fun to play. Games can be hard but have great gameplay and it will bring people in. honestly what better for a shooter, pointing at what you want to hit, or using an anolog stick?? if you ever played a shooter on Wii you would laugh at the idiocy of XBox shooters

Actually, they're not. The detection of the Wii remote is atrocious and does not have the fine sensitivity you can get with something like... say, a mouse. Now, I haven't tried the new Wii + or whatever their new add-on for the controller is that's suppose to make the Wii remote actually detect finer movement (which is what the damn thing was suppose to do at launch but now requires $40 extra).

I tried Red Steel, it does not mimic sword fighting in the least. Wii Resort? About as smooth as playing in maple syrup, and just as responsive.

and a game does not have to be hard to have great gameplay, its simply got to be fun and REPLAYABLE, i do not know if you payed any attention to E3 but both PS3 and XBox 360 are trying to make motion control systems now simply becasue Wii kicked their asses in the money making departments.

I did notice. Makes me sad that these companies are focusing so much attention on a market that really isn't that savvy when it comes to the medium. Mercifully, developers are free from publishers, so I don't have to worry about Mass Effect with a Wiiwand or Dragon Age and the new Wiield and Wiord attachments.

Can you pea sized brain even understand that game play is the most important part of gaming, Nintendo does and it takes that understanding to the bank

Nintendo isn't marketing gameplay, they're marketing a gimmick. Good, balanced gameplay can be found in things that don't involved waving some silly hunk of plastic at a small sensor on your screen. Team Fortess 2 has excellent gameplay, Left 4 Dead is a far better shooter than anything on that console. A lot of the best games on the Wii don't even utilize the wiimote that much (or, in Brawl's case, not at all). 

anyone whos actually played a wii can tell you are just vomiting out your ass, you have no concept of the Wii, not every game uses motion controls, and many that do use them extremly well. Sorry but pointing at something is MUCH faster then moving a mouse to it (BTW XBox does not use a mouse and keyboard for shooters) Look at Arcade games, the shooters there use a point and shoot mechanic, not an anolog stick or a mouse.

Keep crapping on something you know less then nothing about. It suits somoene like you very well.


BTW the reason Wii is atracting new gamers is not the "gimmick" its opening gameplay to everyone young and old because movement is something everyone can do, button mashing is not something the elderly can do, and what better at Chirtsmas having a 7 year old play a new game with granpa watching or playing the game with Grandpa.

Keep craping on the most successful consol to date, you are the smart one. <--- the last part was sarcasam, i know you might not of caught it

[Hizoka003]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...
I did notice. Makes me sad that these companies are focusing so much attention on a market that really isn't that savvy when it comes to the medium. Mercifully, developers are free from publishers, so I don't have to worry about Mass Effect with a Wiiwand or Dragon Age and the new Wiield and Wiord attachments.

I won't lie. This made me LOL.

I can just imagine: "DA2 with the Wiimote! Now you cast your spells in REAL TIME!" 

well that is kinda funny, but at the same time, swordplay is fun. Ever notice how the people who do not have something or cannot find enjoyment in it claim its terrible?

[Schneidend]

Did I miss something? How is a game in which you can do quests in any order linear? You people do understand the root word of linear is line, right? If Mass Effect 1 were linear, you'd have to do the planets in a particular order. If Mass Effect 2 were linear, you'd have to recruit squadmates in a particular order.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Ryzaki wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...
I did notice. Makes me sad that these companies are focusing so much attention on a market that really isn't that savvy when it comes to the medium. Mercifully, developers are free from publishers, so I don't have to worry about Mass Effect with a Wiiwand or Dragon Age and the new Wiield and Wiord attachments.

I won't lie. This made me LOL.
I can just imagine: "DA2 with the Wiimote! Now you cast your spells in REAL TIME!"

Oh god, that reminds me of Arx Fatalis. As someone that has positively terrible coordination skills, I can tell you that moving my mouse to draw runes for quick spellcasting was a horrible, horrible experience.

[Hizoka003]

Schneidend wrote...

Did I miss something? How is a game in which you can do quests in any order linear? You people do understand the root word of linear is line, right? If Mass Effect 1 were linear, you'd have to do the planets in a particular order. If Mass Effect 2 were linear, you'd have to recruit squadmates in a particular order.

yes you missed the linear part, ME2 is get woken up, get a team, beat the big bad. Hiding the line by saying you can get Tali before Jack does not make it magicaly unlinear.

[Ryzaki]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...
I did notice. Makes me sad that these companies are focusing so much attention on a market that really isn't that savvy when it comes to the medium. Mercifully, developers are free from publishers, so I don't have to worry about Mass Effect with a Wiiwand or Dragon Age and the new Wiield and Wiord attachments.

I won't lie. This made me LOL.
I can just imagine: "DA2 with the Wiimote! Now you cast your spells in REAL TIME!"

Oh god, that reminds me of Arx Fatalis. As someone that has positively terrible coordination skills, I can tell you that moving my mouse to draw runes for quick spellcasting was a horrible, horrible experience.

That sounds horrible. I was playing a game where they wanted me to draw a rune to cast a spell with my mouse and ended up screaming in frustration. I could already imagine the epic fail it would be during combat.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Schneidend wrote...
Did I miss something? How is a game in which you can do quests in any order linear? You people do understand the root word of linear is line, right? If Mass Effect 1 were linear, you'd have to do the planets in a particular order. If Mass Effect 2 were linear, you'd have to recruit squadmates in a particular order.

Not entirely true. That's somewhat like calling Oblivion non-linear, because you can approach the next step of the storyline from east instead of west.

Overall, it doesn't matter what order you do things in. You will be doing them all in roughly the same manner, even if not the same order, across all playthroughs, and the story will always go from.. eh.. I just realized I can't type out the name of the various big plot points.

[Nautica773]

Hizoka003 wrote...
anyone whos actually played a wii can tell you are just vomiting out your ass

Interesting metaphor.

... you have no concept of the Wii, not every game uses motion controls, and many that do use them extremly well. Sorry but pointing at something is MUCH faster then moving a mouse to it (BTW XBox does not use a mouse and keyboard for shooters) Look at Arcade games, the shooters there use a point and shoot mechanic, not an anolog stick or a mouse.

The Xbox is terrible for shooters. The analog stick does not have the responsiveness for that kind of gameplay and you end up with games like Halo or the incorporation of some type of 'auto-aim' mechanic. Duck Hunt used a point and shoot mechanic, but it's hardly the epitome of the genre now is it?

Furthermore, arcades use the Rail Shooter format since it's impossible to both use the 'point and shoot' along with some sort of movement control. And as much fun as House of the Dead is, Unreal Tournament and Team Fortress 2 are far more compelling shooter games.

 

Keep crapping on something you know less then nothing about. It suits somoene like you very well.

Indeed, and keep making pointless attacks on character since it both adds to the conversation remarkably well and won't get the thread closed if you continue.

BTW the reason Wii is atracting new gamers is not the "gimmick" its opening gameplay to everyone young and old because movement is something everyone can do, button mashing is not something the elderly can do, and what better at Chirtsmas having a 7 year old play a new game with granpa watching or playing the game with Grandpa.

This is probably the silliest thing I have ever heard. 

Keep craping on the most successful consol to date, you are the smart one. <--- the last part was sarcasam, i know you might not of caught it

See above ^

[ImperialOperative]

Hizoka003 wrote...
pointing at something is MUCH faster then moving a mouse to it (

Wii mote is faster than a mouse?  LOL

[Varenus Luckmann]

THIS IS NOT THE REAL WORLD

Ryzaki wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...
I did notice. Makes me sad that these companies are focusing so much attention on a market that really isn't that savvy when it comes to the medium. Mercifully, developers are free from publishers, so I don't have to worry about Mass Effect with a Wiiwand or Dragon Age and the new Wiield and Wiord attachments.

I won't lie. This made me LOL.
I can just imagine: "DA2 with the Wiimote! Now you cast your spells in REAL TIME!"

Oh god, that reminds me of Arx Fatalis. As someone that has positively terrible coordination skills, I can tell you that moving my mouse to draw runes for quick spellcasting was a horrible, horrible experience.

That sounds horrible. I was playing a game where they wanted me to draw a rune to cast a spell with my mouse and ended up screaming in frustration. I could already imagine the epic fail it would be during combat.

Awwwww, YEAH! One out of three runes done! Now jus- Oh, no, wait, scratch that. My hook registered as a lightning bolt. Start over!

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 21 février 2010 - 08:43 .

[Ryzaki]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
Awwwww, YEAH! One out of three runes done! Now jus- Oh, no, wait, scratch that. My hook registered as a lightning bolt. Start over!

LOL Epic failure.

Yeah I'd get frustrated. Doesn't help that I have a tendency to rush things.

[Schneidend]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Not entirely true. That's somewhat like calling Oblivion non-linear, because you can approach the next step of the storyline from east instead of west.

Overall, it doesn't matter what order you do things in. You will be doing them all in roughly the same manner, even if not the same order, across all playthroughs, and the story will always go from.. eh.. I just realized I can't type out the name of the various big plot points.

But a chart of the events in these games, especially Oblivion, could not be demonstrated in a single linear timeline unless you were talking about a specific playthrough. If we're talking about what paths are presented to a player and when, then a linear model simply would not accurately depict these paths. Mass Effect 2, for instance, has three major events that do, in fact, go in a straight line, but in between those events you have several fields of choices, which would probably be best demonstrated using web diagrams. In between points Major Plot Mission A and Major Plot Mission B you have Recruitment/Loyalty Missions {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.} which can be completed in any order. That simply is not linear.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Ryzaki wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
Awwwww, YEAH! One out of three runes done! Now jus- Oh, no, wait, scratch that. My hook registered as a lightning bolt. Start over!

LOL Epic failure.

Yeah I'd get frustrated. Doesn't help that I have a tendency to rush things.

It's a great game, though. I'm lettin' it rip a bit more than I should. I most heartly recommend it, if you can get it working. It's available at GOG.com (Good Old Games) but some people (including me) are having issues with crashes. It is possible to pre-cast spells and save up to three (I think) at the same time for quick-casting later.

Good game. It's just that it's part of that really old-old school of gaming, before the "next generation". I don't think anyone truly misses the times where you had to paint your own maps on a piece of paper, memorize your spells' names/incantations and what ingredients that was necessary. I like some of it and I'd like to see a return with modern UIs, though.

[Ryzaki]

Schneidend wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Not entirely true. That's somewhat like calling Oblivion non-linear, because you can approach the next step of the storyline from east instead of west.

Overall, it doesn't matter what order you do things in. You will be doing them all in roughly the same manner, even if not the same order, across all playthroughs, and the story will always go from.. eh.. I just realized I can't type out the name of the various big plot points.

But a chart of the events in these games, especially Oblivion, could not be demonstrated in a single linear timeline unless you were talking about a specific playthrough. If we're talking about what paths are presented to a player and when, then a linear model simply would not accurately depict these paths. Mass Effect 2, for instance, has three major events that do, in fact, go in a straight line, but in between those events you have several fields of choices, which would probably be best demonstrated using web diagrams. In between points Major Plot Mission A and Major Plot Mission B you have Recruitment/Loyalty Missions {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.} which can be completed in any order. That simply is not linear.

So Persona 3 and 4 aren't Linear?  That's...news to me. Heck in that case the ending of Wild Arms 5 isn't linear either. Or Star Ocean (you can choose who to recruit) or Raidant Stories. Or Suikoden. Heck that's a lot of JRPGs that aren't linear for such a linear genre!

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
It's
a great game, though. I'm lettin' it rip a bit more than I should. I
most heartly recommend it, if you can get it working. It's available at
GOG.com (Good Old Games) but some people (including me) are having
issues with crashes. It is possible to pre-cast spells and save up to
three (I think) at the same time for quick-casting later.

Good
game. It's just that it's part of that really old-old school of gaming,
before the "next generation". I don't think anyone truly misses the
times where you had to paint your own maps on a piece of paper,
memorize your spells' names/incantations and what ingredients that was
necessary. I like some of it and I'd like to see a return with modern
UIs, though.

Nah I had enough trouble memorizing alchemy recipes in DQ8. Soo many wasted ingrediants.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[tetracycloide]

Schneidend wrote...

Did I miss something? How is a game in which you can do quests in any order linear? You people do understand the root word of linear is line, right? If Mass Effect 1 were linear, you'd have to do the planets in a particular order. If Mass Effect 2 were linear, you'd have to recruit squadmates in a particular order.

Piecewise linear.

[Iain123_]

the level are linear, but make the levels biger and less linear could take other things away from the game, e.g. the level of detail.

[Endurance_117]

Did someone call Oblivion and Morrowind as linear as ME1 and 2?

[Varenus Luckmann]

Schneidend wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
Not entirely true. That's somewhat like calling Oblivion non-linear, because you can approach the next step of the storyline from east instead of west.

Overall, it doesn't matter what order you do things in. You will be doing them all in roughly the same manner, even if not the same order, across all playthroughs, and the story will always go from.. eh.. I just realized I can't type out the name of the various big plot points.

But a chart of the events in these games, especially Oblivion, could not be demonstrated in a single linear timeline unless you were talking about a specific playthrough. If we're talking about what paths are presented to a player and when, then a linear model simply would not accurately depict these paths. Mass Effect 2, for instance, has three major events that do, in fact, go in a straight line, but in between those events you have several fields of choices, which would probably be best demonstrated using web diagrams. In between points Major Plot Mission A and Major Plot Mission B you have Recruitment/Loyalty Missions {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.} which can be completed in any order. That simply is not linear.

You're getting too hooked on the "straight line" part of linear. Every seperate mission is entirely linear. The overreaching narrative is linear. The order in which you do the recruitment missions simply doesn't matter.

What you're saying only holds water if you boil it down to semantics, in which case this discussion has no merit regardless.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Endurance_117 wrote...
Did someone call Oblivion and Morrowind as linear as ME1 and 2?

Did you just compare the linearity of Morrowind and Oblivion? Because if you did, I'm afraid I have to slap you.

[Hizoka003]

people do not know what terms like "linear" mean anymore, if people cannot understand that kind of concept then how are game makers going to ever make a good game. ME2 was not a horrible game, but it was not close to as good as what BioWare has put out in the past, thus the disapointment from long time BioWare fans (note fans do not equal fanbois)



Bioware is know for great story and the story seemed lacking in ME2, and while the shooting gameplay is a bit better then ME1 it got too repetitive way too fast, cover, shoot, cover, ability does not make gameplay that engaging after the first few times.