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[ABCoLD]

Somewhat recently-as in a month ago-Ray Muzyka was responding to an interview and had this to say about Mass Effect.

Ray Muzyka:
Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role,
and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional.

And it confused the heck out of me. I was seriously left scratching my head and wondering how Mass Effect is fundamentally different than any other Bioware game.  I mean, in it I can play a black female with decidely asian features who's a human supremacist-biotic adept who enjoys keeping dead fish in her fish tank...  that's about as far from their poster John Shepard as you can get.

I realize that you have limited choices in these games, but indeed most Bioware games about choice have a decidedly binary feel to your choices, so could someone please help me understand what I'm missing here? 

Modifié par ABCoLD, 21 février 2010 - 06:42 .

[marshalleck]

In Dragon Age, there's a wide variety of character backgrounds.



In Mass Effect, whether your Shepard is a colonist or a spacer, ruthless or war hero, you pretty much come from standard space marine stock. Shepard comes largely defined right from the first game. That's all the good doctor is saying.

[PingoBlack]

Since Shepard speaks, you cannot roleplay the character 100%. He will always fit into a limited amount of predetermined versions of Shepard, based on the voice acting done.



Unlike Dragon Age, where you can say whatever you want in your mind and you have absolutely no mold for your character. Or less of a mold ...

[aaniadyen]

Essentially, you can pick a lot of things, but you can't change major things. Commander Shepard has his own personality, for lack of a better word. He isn't your character, he is his own character who sticks to a certain track.

[Gill Kaiser]

Also, Shepard has his/her own things to say in conversation. You don't choose exactly what he/she says, only a rough summation. It's more like the player is guiding Shepard rather than becoming Shepard.

[ABCoLD]

marshalleck wrote...

In Dragon Age, there's a wide variety of character backgrounds.

In Mass Effect, whether your Shepard is a colonist or a spacer, ruthless or war hero, you pretty much come from standard space marine stock. Shepard comes largely defined right from the first game. That's all the good doctor is saying.

In Mass Effect, you can be either a Colonist, Spacer, or Earthborn.  You can also be a Sole Survivor, Ruthless or a Warhero.  That's 9 possible Origin variations that can be played by 6 classes leading to 54 variations of gameplay discounting gender and moral choice.  Dragon Age has 6 Origins that can be played by only 3 classes but in fact only has 12 variations discounting gender and moral choice.

PingoBlack wrote...

Since Shepard speaks, you cannot
roleplay the character 100%. He will always fit into a limited amount
of predetermined versions of Shepard, based on the voice acting done.

Unlike
Dragon Age, where you can say whatever you want in your mind and you
have absolutely no mold for your character. Or less of a mold ...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Also, Shepard has his/her own things
to say in conversation. You don't choose exactly what he/she says, only
a rough summation. It's more like the player is guiding Shepard rather
than becoming Shepard.

Ermmm, I can't say what I want in Dragon Age.  I have a limited list of choices I can make in every situation, the only difference is one character is fully voice acted and the other is not but completely writes out your responses.

aaniadyen wrote...
Essentially, you can pick a lot of
things, but you can't change major things. Commander Shepard has his
own personality, for lack of a better word. He isn't your character, he
is his own character who sticks to a certain track.

How is this different from Dragon Age Origins or say KOTOR?

[aaniadyen]

ABCoLD wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

In Dragon Age, there's a wide variety of character backgrounds.

In Mass Effect, whether your Shepard is a colonist or a spacer, ruthless or war hero, you pretty much come from standard space marine stock. Shepard comes largely defined right from the first game. That's all the good doctor is saying.

In Mass Effect, you can be either a Colonist, Spacer, or Earthborn.  You can also be a Sole Survivor, Ruthless or a Warhero.  That's 9 possible Origin variations that can be played by 6 classes leading to 54 variations of gameplay discounting gender and moral choice.  Dragon Age has 6 Origins that can be played by only 3 classes but in fact only has 12 variations discounting gender and moral choice.

PingoBlack wrote...

Since Shepard speaks, you cannot
roleplay the character 100%. He will always fit into a limited amount
of predetermined versions of Shepard, based on the voice acting done.

Unlike
Dragon Age, where you can say whatever you want in your mind and you
have absolutely no mold for your character. Or less of a mold ...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Also, Shepard has his/her own things
to say in conversation. You don't choose exactly what he/she says, only
a rough summation. It's more like the player is guiding Shepard rather
than becoming Shepard.

Ermmm, I can't say what I want in Dragon Age.  I have a limited list of choices I can make in every situation, the only difference is one character is fully voice acted and the other is not but completely writes out your responses.

aaniadyen wrote...
Essentially, you can pick a lot of
things, but you can't change major things. Commander Shepard has his
own personality, for lack of a better word. He isn't your character, he
is his own character who sticks to a certain track.

How is this different from Dragon Age Origins or say KOTOR?

In dragon age you can be homosexual. In Mass Effect you can't. In Dragon Age you are your own character. Here you are Shepard. Shepard is not homosexual.

[aaniadyen]

Grr. Sorry, DP

Modifié par aaniadyen, 21 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[marshalleck]

ABCoLD wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

In Dragon Age, there's a wide variety of character backgrounds.

In Mass Effect, whether your Shepard is a colonist or a spacer, ruthless or war hero, you pretty much come from standard space marine stock. Shepard comes largely defined right from the first game. That's all the good doctor is saying.

In Mass Effect, you can be either a Colonist, Spacer, or Earthborn.  You can also be a Sole Survivor, Ruthless or a Warhero.  That's 9 possible Origin variations that can be played by 6 classes leading to 54 variations of gameplay discounting gender and moral choice.  Dragon Age has 6 Origins that can be played by only 3 classes but in fact only has 12 variations discounting gender and moral choice.

And yet Shepard is always an N7 spec ops in the Systems Alliance when the character is introduced. There are variations on a theme, but that's all they are. The protagonist is much more strictly defined in Mass Effect than they are in Dragon Age or some of the other Bioware games.

It's pretty obvious what Muzyka is talking about there, what else are you looking for?

Modifié par marshalleck, 21 février 2010 - 06:44 .

[DarthCaine]

The problem with third person is that half the time what I choose and what Shepard actually says is completely different and I have to replay each dialogue a dozen times

The thing is, I don't want my Shepard to be 100% paragon or 100% renegade. I want him to say smart-ass stuff to criminals and still be nice and kind to other people, but doesn't act like a wuss that's sorry for everything

I wish they add an option in ME3 where you could, for example, right click the dialogue option and a box comes out that says the exact words Shepard is going to say

Modifié par DarthCaine, 21 février 2010 - 06:46 .

[ABCoLD]

marshalleck wrote...

And yet Shepard is always an N7 spec ops in the Systems Alliance when the character is introduced. There are variations on a theme, but that's all they are. The protagonist is much more strictly defined in Mass Effect than they are in Dragon Age or some of the other Bioware games.

It's pretty obvious what Muzyka is talking about there, what else are you looking for?

This is perhaps the closest thing I've seen to an actual answer to the question, but a third person narrative is different from a first in that in a first person narrative the narrator is the main character, whereas in the third the narrator is a nebulous entity.  I've yet to see how the styles of the game, narration, story or dialogue make the discernable difference there.

[WilliamShatner]

It's just PR speak like "dark", "emotionally engaging" and "asexual".

[marshalleck]

ABCoLD wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

And yet Shepard is always an N7 spec ops in the Systems Alliance when the character is introduced. There are variations on a theme, but that's all they are. The protagonist is much more strictly defined in Mass Effect than they are in Dragon Age or some of the other Bioware games.

It's pretty obvious what Muzyka is talking about there, what else are you looking for?

This is perhaps the closest thing I've seen to an actual answer to the question, but a third person narrative is different from a first in that in a first person narrative the narrator is the main character, whereas in the third the narrator is a nebulous entity.  I've yet to see how the styles of the game, narration, story or dialogue make the discernable difference there.

Well like WilliamShatner said, Dr. Muzyka likes to use "cool sounding" buzzwords that don't actually say a whole lot in interviews. Maybe he believe there is some huge fundamental difference in the games, but I doubt it. I think he was using grandiose verbiage to say Shepard is more clearly defined as a protagonist than most of the "nameless" protagonists in their other games.

[babylonfreak]

aaniadyen wrote...


In dragon age you can be homosexual. In Mass Effect you can't. In Dragon Age you are your own character. Here you are Shepard. Shepard is not homosexual.

Commander Kris Shepard is a homosexual. It's just that no other females on board are, except Kelly, whom she is sleeping with.

Modifié par babylonfreak, 21 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[babylonfreak]

Yay a triple.

Modifié par babylonfreak, 21 février 2010 - 07:22 .

[babylonfreak]

sigh

Modifié par babylonfreak, 21 février 2010 - 07:24 .

[ABCoLD]

marshalleck wrote...

Well like WilliamShatner said, Dr. Muzyka likes to use "cool sounding" buzzwords that don't actually say a whole lot in interviews. Maybe he believe there is some huge fundamental difference in the games, but I doubt it. I think he was using grandiose verbiage to say Shepard is more clearly defined as a protagonist than most of the "nameless" protagonists in their other games.

It's nice to get a clear cut answer on this (that I wanted to hear ).

I do think it's rather frustrating to say that Shepard is a more narrowly defined character than Revan or the Student, both of whom originate from a single background and have a single defining moment in their character's lives.  By the same note it's annoying when the game is marked as different from any Bioware game when all Bioware games follow the same tired (but good) plot.

Confusing and frustrating and yeah....

[aaniadyen]

babylonfreak wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...


In dragon age you can be homosexual. In Mass Effect you can't. In Dragon Age you are your own character. Here you are Shepard. Shepard is not homosexual.

Commander Kris Shepard is a homosexual. It's just that no other females on board are, except Kelly, whom she is sleeping with.

Pretty sure Bioware says she isn't.

Shep never sleeps with Kelly, just watches her dance. I could be wrong. *shrugs* that's just how I see it considering Jack is bi and FemShep can't romance her.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 21 février 2010 - 07:48 .

[SmokePants]

The distinction is more important from a development standpoint. They have to define jargon such as this to keep their project -- with so many different writers and designers -- consistent and heading in the same direction. The third-person narrative philosophy guides their decisions. They simply couldn't have made either ME1 or 2 the way they made them if they didn't have the concept at the top of mind at all times. But from a consumer's point of view, it isn't really important.

[ABCoLD]

SmokePants wrote...

The distinction is more important from a development standpoint. They have to define jargon such as this to keep their project -- with so many different writers and designers -- consistent and heading in the same direction. The third-person narrative philosophy guides their decisions. They simply couldn't have made either ME1 or 2 the way they made them if they didn't have the concept at the top of mind at all times. But from a consumer's point of view, it isn't really important.

If you'd like to elaborate on this, I'd like to hear the reasoning.

[babylonfreak]

aaniadyen wrote...

babylonfreak wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...


In dragon age you can be homosexual. In Mass Effect you can't. In Dragon Age you are your own character. Here you are Shepard. Shepard is not homosexual.

Commander Kris Shepard is a homosexual. It's just that no other females on board are, except Kelly, whom she is sleeping with.

Pretty sure Bioware says she isn't.

Shep never sleeps with Kelly, just watches her dance. I could be wrong. *shrugs* that's just how I see it considering Jack is bi and FemShep can't romance her.

Jack isn't Bi. She ended up in bed with a guy and his GF, and ended up killing them, so it wasn't really a good experience. She tells femshep in no uncertain terms she is *not* into the whole "girl's club" thing.

Kelly dances, and she also cuddles in bed and sits on your lap, like any other LI post-game. There's no pre-battle "love scene" because she was taken by the Collectors, but the implication of her in stripper outfit cuddling with you in bed are clear enough, at least for me. I don't need sideboob for confirmation, I can read ellipsis.

Modifié par babylonfreak, 21 février 2010 - 08:34 .

[ABCoLD]

babylonfreak wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

babylonfreak wrote...

Commander Kris Shepard is a homosexual. It's just that no other females on board are, except Kelly, whom she is sleeping with.

Pretty sure Bioware says she isn't.

Shep never sleeps with Kelly, just watches her dance. I could be wrong. *shrugs* that's just how I see it considering Jack is bi and FemShep can't romance her.

Jack isn't Bi. She ended up in bed with a guy and his GF, and ended up killing them, so it wasn't really a good experience. She tells femshep in no uncertain terms she is *not* into the whole "girl's club" thing.

Kelly dances, and she also cuddles in bed and sits on your lap, like any other LI post-game. There's no pre-battle "love scene" because she was taken by the Collectors, but the implication of her in stripper outfit cuddling with you in bed are clear enough, at least for me. I don't need sideboob for confirmation, I can read ellipsis.

I find this interplay highly amusing.  Also to state that femShep having relations with Liara wasn't a homosexual relationship was perhaps the silliest thing I've ever heard.  Also, this has nothing to do with my question, but thank you for playing.

[babylonfreak]

/Highjacks thread