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What the Devs Got Right! (but everyone hates)


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#1
Kreidian

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 Bioware did just about everything right for this game. In particular a lot of the story elements were just nothing short of fantastic! And yet there are a couple of things that people are royally pissed off about when it comes to the story. One or two of these might have a valid point, but there more then a few story elements that Bioware did perfectly right and people still have a problem with. Well the last thing I want is for the Devs to think that all their great work is going unappreciated, so I decided to discuss some of the story bits that people seem to have a huge problem with but that Bioware should definitely not back down on if at all possible!
This is just the short list, mind you, I'm sure we can spend all day going over every nuance of the game that people liked or disliked. 
An Honest Mature Story in Missions
Mature in this case doesn't mean showing off naughty bits, blowing people up into a bloody mess, or exaggerated use of foul language. That is in fact quite immature by comparison. I'm talking about the stuff with real deep meaningful significance, situations that expose you to the harsh realities of life and put before you real difficult decisions and opinions without any simple answers. This is stuff that makes some people uncomfortable, but it's a perfect and vital part of what makes Mass Effect so great, especially for this darker second chapter.
Jacob's loyalty mission can be truly disturbing, especially when you can clearly see it happening. Mordin's loyalty mission gives you a very honest, defendable, and logical reason why sterilizing an entire species was the best course of action. What's more it refuses to back down from this position and give you an easy way out. While at the same time is shows you the horrors that can develop in a species that are forced to live with this manufactured genetic curse. Tali's mission is a heart-wrenching example of how much politics can ruin a person and a family, and gives you a difficult decision between doing what's right for the truth or doing what's best for those you care about. 
Which is why it's kind of strange, though not unexpected, to have people complaining about the intensity and dark, mature themes explored in these missions. These plot elements really bothered some people, who now insist that Bioware went to far. Well I completely disagree. The whole point of the game is that people go too far in real life all the time, and here they show you the result. It's up to you, as the mature player here, to figure out how to deal with that. It is by experiencing these real, and sometimes horrible situations that you become truly immersed in the story. The real world is never all about happy jokes and easy to kill enemies. And there's no reason to insult a mature audience by pretending that it is. Don't shy away from doing these kinds of missions, keep it real, even if the reality is more disturbing then we'd be comfortable.
The caveat to this however is that it only works because these themes are interspersed with some really high quality humor, as well as some wonderfully simplistic choices and a good heaping of violence and/or sex. This is important because all of this heavy mature story elements can become quickly morose and downright depressing if the player isn't given ample opportunity to break away from it. I've seen it too often in other games, movies, and TV shows where the writers are trying too damn hard to make everything so serious, and nothing good ever happens as a result, just one more depressing hardship after another. At which point I lose all interest.
Thankfully ME2 doesn't do that, it is the great balance towards fun that really makes the game work so well. The simple mindless fun aspects of the game really give you a greater sense of just how dark the universe can get when you're exposed to it in later missions. Likewise those dark themed uncomfortable missions allow you to appreciate the opportunity for mindless fun that much more. 
Plus it helps to know that at the end of the game we'll be the ones kicking ass, winning against the bad guys, and making the galaxy a better place. True happy endings like that aren't exactly realistic, but that is where the game and the real world have to diverge. You have to win in the end, you have to be happy with your experiences when all is said and done, simply because this is still a game, and at the end of the day we want to enjoy ourselves. And that is what makes these missions even better, because at the end of the day you Can and Do make a difference. You rescue all the people from the planet on Jacob's mission. You can choose to save the data on the Genophage cure, you can help people resolve their dark pasts. This is what makes the game great, and I for one can't wait for more.

Liara Hardened
Wow, this one was a big shock to everyone. We were so used to the innocent archaeologist from the first game. Like the science geek in high school, she had this naivete that people found endearing. Of course that all went out the window when the Normandy blew up. Now when we meet her she's angry. Handing out threats, looking for people to kill, and lost in her own world of vengeance. 
It's kind of strange seeing people who just can't quite handle that. It is such a drastic change people are convinced it ruined the character. This is, simply put, not the same Liara from the first game.
To which I say, what the hell did you expect? It's been 2 years! And Liara's gone through hell during that time. Which she'll tell you about if you bothered to talk to her about it. She changed a lot just in the few months she spent with you in the original game, it makes sense that after 2 years she wouldn't be the same. 
This is something the Devs got down right. After two years I want to see characters changing and developing. Seeing Liara change so drastically was just great! I personally love the way she was handled, I love seeing her becoming a bit meaner, a bit more ruthless, as she struggles to deal with the injustices of the galaxy in her own way. This is a path Liara needed to take and it was awesome being able to see that in person.Plus it really showed you in a jarring way just how much things have changed. I can't imagine a better way to show the players that they're not in Kansas anymore. This is what the Universe has become without your presence in the last two years. Just imagine how boring it would have been for Liara to remain exactly the same this time. That would have truly sucked.
You see other characters change pretty dramatically as well in this game, and every time I have to say it was wonderfully done. Tali's become a lot more mature since completing her Pilgrimage. Garrus went from a lawful but troubled cop on the edge to a full blown vigilante. And it's awesome! Hell even Joker changed noticeably. It might not be something you pick up right away, but he's the one out on the port entrance of the ship shooting down collectors at the end of the game. He's the one risking his life for you the way you risked your life for him two years prior. 
Seeing character develop especially for a game like Mass Effect, is truly great. The greater injustice would have been to not see the characters develop at all.

Jack
So now people are afraid of strong personalities in a woman? Even though at least half of the players are actually playing one?
Ok I jest, but it's funny that people would find her offensive, since that's kinda the whole point. She's a criminal, of the violent Homicidal Maniac variety. She lived in a prison where the most innocent man there killed about twenty people and destroyed a habitat. And even then they had to put her in cryo-statis isolation, guarded by three heavy mechs. 
But for some reason there are some people that are offended by her rude behavior. Truly that can only be described as comedy. It's equally funny, and just as pointless, that the one thing people seem to hate about her the most is her haircut. 
Regardless of the reasons why though, I personally think she's a great character. In fact I think the fact that so many people hate her is a good thing. Great in fact, she's the type of person that wants you to hate her, she wants to make the people around her uncomfortable. Let's face it, she'd love any excuse to kill anyone near her. The way I figure, the more people hate her the better she is as a character because of it.
That said I do look forward to how she will evolve in ME3, maybe she'll learn to be kinder and gentler person. Personally I hope she remains the same offensive violent person, only evolved to the point where she at least treats her friends (i.e. you) a lot better. Not kinder, mind you, just better. She'll still insult you given half the chance, but at least she'll be willing to sit down with you for a friendly lunch while doing so.

Miranda
Like Jack, Miranda has a surprising number of haters out there as well. Unlike Jack, however, Miranda was a character that I pretty much hated for most of the game. But this is what makes her such an awesome character. 
All throughout the game she was always going on about how superior she was. She made sure to remind you that if it hadn't been for her and Cerberus you wouldn't even be alive. And even after showing her proof she still refused to see how bad Cerberus truly was. I couldn't believe it that after helping her with her sister, after taking her to see the conditions Jack was raised in, after confronting her about the experiments they conducted on Husks, Thorians, even Rachnni, she was still defending Cerberus and all their actions. 
It seemed we disagreed on everything. So much so that when she and Jack had their little argument, I sided with Jack even though I could have easily persuaded both of them to stand down without choosing a side. I came back around to smooth things over with her with the proper renegade dialog, sure, but at the time I simply refused to agree with her even remotely. God how I hated her.
And that was the biggest reason why I love the writing they did with this character. Because as much as I hated her, I also totaly respected her. I liked that she stuck with her guns even when I completely disagreed with her. I liked that she never once had a problem disagreeing with me in return. And it was the fact that we completely disagreed and yet still respected each other that made things so much better when she finally did agree with me about the Collector base, even going so far as resigning from Cerberus rather then be forced into following TIM's orders. 
This is why I so look forward to her in ME3, not as a friend who agrees with me, there are plenty of those already, but as someone I respect who still disagrees with me. I want to have that character who is a constant foil to my decisions, someone who will always have the opposing viewpoint available for me to see. 
I can see a great rivalry happening here between Miranda and my Shepard. Shepard was born on the streets of Earth and had to fight everyday just to survive. Miranda also born on Earth but in a a life of luxury, everything she could ever want was provided for her but she threw it all away for the one thing she didn't have, her freedom. Despite both coming from the same planet they come from two completely different worlds. And I can't wait to see how this develops further.

Again this is just a short list of the wonderful story elements Bioware added to this game, even if they weren't the most loved. And I can only hope that Bioware will continue to add more of these in the future. That's not to say they didn't make some mistakes that they really need never repeat if at all possible. But that's probably something best left for another thread. :D

#2
Mox Ruuga

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Yes, let's hope more unexpected mature moments.

Tali becoming a diseased prostitute would be shocking, but think how ultimately rewarding such a mature and provocative development would be... Unexpected, and her fans would surely protest. But just think...

Modifié par Mox Ruuga, 21 février 2010 - 09:23 .


#3
NuclearBuddha

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Mox Ruuga wrote...

Yes, let's hope more unexpected mature moments.

Tali becoming a diseased prostitute would be shocking, but think how ultimately rewarding such a mature and provocative development would be... Unexpected, and her fans would surely protest. But just think...


Very clever idea!  Oh, hey, you've got a little vitriol on your chin.

#4
Frotality

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story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.

you and bioware seen to have forgotten that part.

#5
silentstephi

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I like your assessment of the game, and pretty much agree. Mature themed doesn't mean boobs and gore, but topics people aren't comfortable with. It's awesome to see that your choices aren't always black and white as well.


#6
Suron

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Liara's "hardening" only bothers me if you romanced her in ME1...



so you're the first she's been with sexually...she "loved" you.



You, her first real love, die...now everyone moves on..but in 2 years time..she met and got closer to someone then she EVER was to you somehow..her reaction shows this. She's obsessed with finding and taking down/killing the shadow broker for her "friends" death...so much so that she's not even really bothered with your return...sure she says some nice words..but then goes onto her complete obsession with the SB..



If pursuing a love interest in ME2 affects your ME1 "LI" in ME3...then Liara's is the one we better be given an option about her obsession and how she totally blew you off....OBVIOUSLY she's more interested in killing the SB over her "friends" death then she is with even the fact you're still alive.



She's the ONLY one that should be shot down entirely if there's a dialogue tree about "cheating" on ME1 LI's in ME2...ashley/kaiden can make a case perhaps..not Liara..she obviously moved passed you, found someone else, and now is obsessed with punishing that "friends" killer.



now from a non-romance viewpoint..it's whatever. But her entire callous demeanor towards in ME2 if you romanced her in ME1 is just a coldhearted face slap (on her part..not biowares.)

#7
Suron

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freakin double post...damn these boards are stupid at times.

Modifié par Suron, 21 février 2010 - 09:37 .


#8
Ileanos07

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I completely agree with you... You just write alot what is on my mind... Especialy about Jack and maturity...

#9
primero holodon

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I accepted Liara becoming Hardened and cold because it kinda gave you a perspective on the situation. It gave me a feeling of Liara and shepard still loved eachother but Liara changed, Shepard didn't, it just wouldn't have worked. I felt it gave you the feeling that you lost more than just the Normandy in the ambush. however on that note... Bioware better not mess with Tali or there will be hell to pay

#10
silentstephi

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Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.

you and bioware seen to have forgotten that part.


Really?  Because Butcher did just fine making Lasciel into someone who you love and hate...

If you can't understand the concept of different people with different motivations striving for the same goal, then you've missed a large part of the game. 

You're going to have situations in life where you have a large social group going after the same thing, but for radicially different reasons.  Dealing with that is part of life.  (Though in this aspect it's just a game, but still, it reflects close enough to reality that it makes it all that much more engaging.)

#11
Schneidend

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Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.


Bioware's philosophy is that if the morality, merits, and ideas of a character can be debated, then they have succeeded in writing a character that is not shallow. A narrative writer's biggest fear is, in my opinion, whether he's penning an interesting person into being or just stringing a bunch of words together and calling it a character.

I tend to agree that this is an excellent model to use. If all characters were likable, then that is a sign that there isn't enough going on with them to argue one way or another.

#12
Skilled Seeker

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I completely agree. ME2 is damn near perfect IMHO.

#13
stealthisaccount101

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Mox Ruuga wrote...

Yes, let's hope more unexpected mature moments.

Tali becoming a diseased prostitute would be shocking, but think how ultimately rewarding such a mature and provocative development would be... Unexpected, and her fans would surely protest. But just think...


Mass Effect 3 should just be GTA in space.

"Welcome to the Citadel, cousin!  28 flavors of intergalactic ******!"

#14
Unit-Alpha

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Your first and third points were especially valid. I found Miranda to have a great personality once you did her loyalty mission. They did a stunning job on it. Yes, and this dispute over nudity = maturity is irrational.

#15
Frotality

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silentstephi wrote...

Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.

you and bioware seen to have forgotten that part.


Really?  Because Butcher did just fine making Lasciel into someone who you love and hate...

If you can't understand the concept of different people with different motivations striving for the same goal, then you've missed a large part of the game. 

You're going to have situations in life where you have a large social group going after the same thing, but for radicially different reasons.  Dealing with that is part of life.  (Though in this aspect it's just a game, but still, it reflects close enough to reality that it makes it all that much more engaging.)


what same goal? to frustrate the player with a complete 180 of personality that completely blows off everything youve ever done for them? conflict amongst characters is all well and good, but not when there is conflict and absloutely no semblance of resolution one way or the other. that is the case with the LIs (like liara); if the shift in character actually presented an obstacle for the player to deal with in the interest of preserving a relationship, it wouldve been awesome; but instead its thrown in your face for no reason with barely a chance to so much as acknowledge it. the problem is that you 'dont' deal with it, suddenly the character is completely different, and thats it, you just accept it or you dont, if never branches out at all. and thats beside the fact that personality conflict should strive to be more than "completely change this character so the player can hate her".

unless you paragon romance her, jack is the same thing; shes a b*tch who only cares about herself to start and tells you to f**k off all the time, and she ends the exact same b*tch. there is no development, there is no conflict, theres just her being a b*tch for the entirety of the game. she has no goal, shes just being a b*tch. dealing with differing reasons of accomplishing the same thing isnt in any way difficult or emotional or anything other than accepting all the help you can get. the whole focus of the game is developing the characters and 'giving' them a reason beyond just working for you; jack does none of this.

but i dont really care about jack, if you like characters that do little beyond curse at you, fine, i dont have to deal with it. my main problem is the terrible bit of cop-out that was liara; completely changing the base personality of a character because the writers couldnt think of a better way to tempt you with the new romances other than making you unanimously hate the old ones. seeing as they went absolutely nowhere with the shift of character and just hoped we would accept it, that is the only logical reason for it.

#16
enormousmoonboots

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The thing that makes me angry about Jack is that she has no character arc for a female Shepard. I feel completely justified in disliking her when she has no development at all for the half of the story that I'm invested in.

#17
CraigHB

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I have to say the ME series has the most developed and interesting story of any game I've ever played. I might go so far as to call it groundbreaking. This is what makes the game so exceptional. I hope to see more of the same in ME3. The game isn't beyond criticizm by any stretch, but what it does well, it does spectacularly well.

#18
bjdbwea

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So, basically you liked everything that others didn't. Good for you. And that makes it "right", because...?

#19
babylonfreak

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I wonder how many of the people who hate Jack because she's too polarized a character are the same people who accuse Kaidan of being bland and Tali boring. You just can't please some people. They also seem to forget that Jack was imprisoned and tortured as a kid, pitted in fighting matches against other kids, and had to kill people to escape. She's the way she is because, as she says herself, she was *made* that way. It's not really her fault, and if you get past her barriers you can find the hurt, traumatized kid underneath her hardass shield.



I also fully support the other points. ME2 is not an "epic" story, it is a deeply personal story. Bioware wisely did not make ME1 a second time, they delivered a new experience, and made the MEverse richer for it.

#20
Kreidian

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bjdbwea wrote...
So, basically you liked everything that others didn't. Good for you. And that makes it "right", because...?


My, aren't we feeling all superior.

This isn't about me being "right". However there were a lot of people ****ing and complaining about several very well done story elements that they didn't like, often for really stupid reasons. I'm simply expressing an alternate opinion with my own reasons. 

Though I suppose you would rather just be a dick about it then actually try to put some thought into what I'm saying.

#21
Rishathra_Anyone

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Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.

you and bioware seen to have forgotten that part.


And evidently you forgot that JACK IS A VILLAIN! Shepard did after all break her out of a maximum security prison. And Zayeed is too. And if you play as a Renegade, your Shepard might also be viewed as a villain.

They stated from the begining that this is the dark episode of the trilogy. therefore the cast will tend alittle more in that direction also. Kinda like the Dark Knight version of Batman, doesn't mean that he isn't a hero.

Your formula above is very simplistic, and this is a very complex story, which places it outside the restrictions of the above quote.

Personally I tend toward agreeing with the OP, as we are seeing the crew mature without Shep. What I'm now looking forward to is finding out how they evolve in ME3. Remember how Garrus changed in ME1 if you played a Paragon. And remember, there are a ton of actions/interactions to track. I just really hope they are up to the challenge.

#22
sirisaacx

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Schneidend wrote...

Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.


Bioware's philosophy is that if the morality, merits, and ideas of a character can be debated, then they have succeeded in writing a character that is not shallow. A narrative writer's biggest fear is, in my opinion, whether he's penning an interesting person into being or just stringing a bunch of words together and calling it a character.


Yeah, Imagine if all of the squadmates were Yeoman Kelly, and all of the Enemies were Vorcha. That is what you are proposing.
I tend to agree that this is an excellent model to use. If all characters were likable, then that is a sign that there isn't enough going on with them to argue one way or another.

Modifié par sirisaacx, 21 février 2010 - 10:43 .


#23
ZennExile

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Kreidian wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
So, basically you liked everything that others didn't. Good for you. And that makes it "right", because...?


My, aren't we feeling all superior.

This isn't about me being "right". However there were a lot of people ****ing and complaining about several very well done story elements that they didn't like, often for really stupid reasons. I'm simply expressing an alternate opinion with my own reasons. 

Though I suppose you would rather just be a dick about it then actually try to put some thought into what I'm saying.

You mean all the plot elements that don't make sense in a psuedo realistic scenario?  Or how more than half the characters and all but two loyalty missions seem to have nothing at all to do with the Mass Effect Universe?  You mean those well done story elements that only stupid people would complain about?

How about the lack of depth to any of the over arching story?  Or how even the characters (the central story focus AND design focus) aren't fleshed out in any meaningful way or how the entire story is a linear amuzement part filled with mission rides instead of the branching story arcs we've come to expect from Bioware?

Or how about how ME2 doesn't further the overall story in any tangeble way other than to say "look at the neat characters we pulled out of our crap cannon and sold you for 60$ "  You mean all those stupid complaints?

Modifié par ZennExile, 21 février 2010 - 10:48 .


#24
silentstephi

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Frotality wrote...

silentstephi wrote...

Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.

you and bioware seen to have forgotten that part.


Really?  Because Butcher did just fine making Lasciel into someone who you love and hate...

If you can't understand the concept of different people with different motivations striving for the same goal, then you've missed a large part of the game. 

You're going to have situations in life where you have a large social group going after the same thing, but for radicially different reasons.  Dealing with that is part of life.  (Though in this aspect it's just a game, but still, it reflects close enough to reality that it makes it all that much more engaging.)


what same goal? to frustrate the player with a complete 180 of personality that completely blows off everything youve ever done for them? conflict amongst characters is all well and good, but not when there is conflict and absloutely no semblance of resolution one way or the other. that is the case with the LIs (like liara); if the shift in character actually presented an obstacle for the player to deal with in the interest of preserving a relationship, it wouldve been awesome; but instead its thrown in your face for no reason with barely a chance to so much as acknowledge it. the problem is that you 'dont' deal with it, suddenly the character is completely different, and thats it, you just accept it or you dont, if never branches out at all. and thats beside the fact that personality conflict should strive to be more than "completely change this character so the player can hate her".


But this isn't the case of a character 'suddenly' changing.  She's had two years to change, Shep's only felt like it's been a few weeks, which again, gives you that immersed feeling of " ... wait, wut?"  Maybe the reason you're not given an option to deal with it is because she doesn't want to.  That's exactly what I got out of the conversation you have with her.  Same with Kaiden/Ash, though they do give you a bit more semblence of a resolution in the apology note later.  But your current mission, Stop the Collectors, is going to interfer with whatever they have going on.  The obsticle is there, and there are reasons (oh jee You've been DEAD).  Liara's still got some heavy feelings of guilt to deal with too (especially if you tell her giving your body to Cerberus was a bad idea.)

But it's all there.  Heavy conflict, and yea, you're not able to finish it this game, but it is a trilogy and all the ME1 LI's people have been promised a resolution in the final chapter.   

unless you paragon romance her, jack is the same thing; shes a b*tch who only cares about herself to start and tells you to f**k off all the time, and she ends the exact same b*tch. there is no development, there is no conflict, theres just her being a b*tch for the entirety of the game. she has no goal, shes just being a b*tch. dealing with differing reasons of accomplishing the same thing isnt in any way difficult or emotional or anything other than accepting all the help you can get. the whole focus of the game is developing the characters and 'giving' them a reason beyond just working for you; jack does none of this.

She's a **** if you both follow the same Renegade path.  Like attitudes aren't going to attract, they're just going to clash.  That's very IC, and I'm actually looking forward to Jack leaving my Shep's team in ME3 because of it.  It's really good writing and if you didn't like her character, then you probably won't care if she's gone.  Either way, it's still a good story.   And she is given a reason to work with you if you do her loyalty mission - you helped her stick it to Cerberus.  It's going to get you a small bone.  Yea.  She's still a b*tch, but that's Jack.


but i dont really care about jack, if you like characters that do little beyond curse at you, fine, i dont have to deal with it. my main problem is the terrible bit of cop-out that was liara; completely changing the base personality of a character because the writers couldnt think of a better way to tempt you with the new romances other than making you unanimously hate the old ones. seeing as they went absolutely nowhere with the shift of character and just hoped we would accept it, that is the only logical reason for it.


Really?  The fact that they've changed makes you hate the ME1 romances?  They've grown in two years, without Shep, and that makes them aweful people now?  How could they have stayed the same after two years?  That just doesn't make sense.  If Liara was the same in ME2, I'd actually have written her off as boring.  "Oh hey, you're back!  Isn't that so great!  Want to come to my latest dig site?  Oh no, you weren't dead, you just had a cough right?"  Hell, you're practically a zombie.  The way the person was before they might have just rejected you out of hand because YOU'VE COME BACK FROM THE DEAD.

#25
ZennExile

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Oh and FYI if everyone hates something, the devs didn't get it right.