116 réponses à ce sujet

[silentstephi]

ZennExile wrote...

Oh and FYI if everyone hates something, the devs didn't get it right.

I'd like to point out that because this thread exists, your statement isn't valid.

[bjdbwea]

Kreidian wrote...

This isn't about me being "right". However there were a lot of people ****ing and complaining about several very well done story elements that they didn't like, often for really stupid reasons. I'm simply expressing an alternate opinion with my own reasons.

Uh... isn't the title of your thread - quote - "What the Devs got right"? Your first sentence - quote - "Bioware did just about everything right for this game"? So, the question why your opinion is the measurement of what's "right" is a valid one, I'd say.
With that said, you're wrong. Enough ideas in the main story as well as the side stories are interesting, that much is true. Some is well done. But at too many (crucial) points, the story telling simply lacks, both from the ideas per se as well as the technical implementation / presentation.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 21 février 2010 - 11:00 .

[davidt0504]

Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.

you and bioware seen to have forgotten that part.

well some of us aren't quite happy with the comicbook outline for a story.  Why would you want to like all the characters? Thats not realistic. 

[Vendrac]

I agree with most of the points you've made. The only thing I was even truly disappointed with story/character wise was how little they let you interact with your former LI from the first game. All of them got the short end of the stick from what I've seen. I really would have liked to be able to at least talk to them more.



As for Jack and Miranda, they both really surprised me. I wasn't too sure about Jack when I first saw the character announced. And I was pretty much counting on hating Miranda, being such a Cerberus flunky, or so I thought.

But in the end I enjoyed both of them very much.

[Speakeasy13]

Interesting post. I agree with you for the most part. Here are my two cents:

Story
While I did enjoy the story elements in ME2, I didn't enjoy it nearly as much as I did in ME1. It's a design choice by Bioware that I must respect, not them "dropping the ball" as some detractors claim. As opposed to the epic space opera of ME1, ME2 is a series of pulp fictions set in space. Recruiting for the suicide mission only serves as a thread that takes us through these intertwining stories of a ragtagged band of individuals, and their motivations of saving the galaxy.

Problem is, people are self-absorbed. We paid our $60 expecting the main course to be a Shepard's story, even though heavy promotion on squad mates would suggest otherwise. It seems that we can't really process the fact that Shepard's role in the story this time around is as the thread and sometimes, even a foil to his squad mates. And people don't like that because hey, I paid to play this game so that I can be the hero. We are not interested in the story if it's not about us.

Jack
I do enjoy Jack's character, probably the most out of all 3 female LIs. But the problem is, a good chunk of her development lies in her being an LI for a male Shepard. Here's the problem. I, like most people, hate her haircut. So much that I refrained for the longest time from romancing her, only to miss finding out how deep and conflicted a character she really is.

I know it can be considered shallow. And as a friend, or a squad mate, I don't think I have the right to tell her to grow some hair. But as a romantic LI? The haircut really can affect my decision, and rightfully. So you see, the haircut, while only a small portion of her overall character, had stopped the vast majority of us from getting to know her for seemingly absurd reasons, and as a result, all we see is her violent, offensive exterior.

Miranda
May I stress again, that people are self-absorbed? We don't like people second-guessing us all the time, and we can't stand people acting superior to us, especially when we're playing a videogame where we're supposed to be a hero. Once we get past our own ego, Miranda is quite a conving, if not compelling character.

My only reservation is that, while I enjoyed her development as a character, said development seemed forced. There's not enough turning point in her story that would suggest her turning from a cold-hearted loyalist **** to someone who'd be bold enough to take a stand against the TIM. Like you said, the fact that she had defending Cerberus in every possible occassion no matter how late into the game it had been really didn't help.

Zaeed
Another GREAT character that Bioware brought us this time around that people seem to hate because we are self-absorbed. The main bones people have to pick with him are: 1) he doesn't get a dialogue tree and 2) he's supposedly "under-developed".

1) Apparently a lot of us don't bother initiating a conversation unless we get to talk back, which would suggest why an extremely well-done conversation options is turned into such a hated subject. Zaeed has more insight to offer than any other character in the game, but nope, we would rather go to Garrus, TALK to him when he's calibarting, than hear wonderful stories from the veteran merc. Because of the the simple reason  that we don't get to say "oh that's horrible!" or "yay that's awsome!"

2) Zaeed is not under-developed, he's already developed when he comes into the scene. For someone with so much more experience than Shepard, you don't expect to just turn him all around. You don't "lecture" and "develop" him like you do with Tali, you simply find out about him as you go. That takes away the ego from most people, and we don't like him because of that.

When the game does not develop to your liking, I think people should first refrain from complaining, and reflect on how they've been experiencing the game. People are self-absorbed about their expectations, and I appreciate Bioware for trying something different this time around. So next time when you have something to complain, maybe it's not dev's problem. Maybe it's you.

[FlyinElk212]

[quote]ZennExile wrote...

Oh and FYI if everyone hates something, the devs didn't get it right.[/quote]

[/quote]
If BIoware intentionally created something they knew their fans would hate (Liara/Kaidan/Ashley's development, for example), then yes, they got it right. That being said, anyone arguing over Bioware's handling of any character in this game is just plain stupid. Characters were the focus of this game, and simply because you didn't like where they took a character doesn't make it wrong.

If you wanna argue that the writer's sucked in ME2, take shots at the shoddy overall storyarc. Character complaints are usually opinionated and fan-driven.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 21 février 2010 - 11:12 .

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Yes, let's hope more unexpected mature moments.

Tali becoming a diseased prostitute would be shocking, but think how ultimately rewarding such a mature and provocative development would be... Unexpected, and her fans would surely protest. But just think...

I think it is a great direction for Tali.  Shows how much she has matured and hardened through the "dark second chapter"  I mean why would you want just the same old character back again?  It would be boring if she didn't evolve and grow over the course of the story.  In fact I think it still needs the edgyness amped up a bit more, show just how tough she is now, maybe make her a chain smoker and a cold blooded killer as well.

[JrayM16]

A fine post.

[Sharn01]

silentstephi wrote...

but i dont really care about jack, if you like characters that do little beyond curse at you, fine, i dont have to deal with it. my main problem is the terrible bit of cop-out that was liara; completely changing the base personality of a character because the writers couldnt think of a better way to tempt you with the new romances other than making you unanimously hate the old ones. seeing as they went absolutely nowhere with the shift of character and just hoped we would accept it, that is the only logical reason for it.

Really?  The fact that they've changed makes you hate the ME1 romances?  They've grown in two years, without Shep, and that makes them aweful people now?  How could they have stayed the same after two years?  That just doesn't make sense.  If Liara was the same in ME2, I'd actually have written her off as boring.  "Oh hey, you're back!  Isn't that so great!  Want to come to my latest dig site?  Oh no, you weren't dead, you just had a cough right?"  Hell, you're practically a zombie.  The way the person was before they might have just rejected you out of hand because YOU'VE COME BACK FROM THE DEAD.

Are there people who still do not know that Liara is the one who recovered your body and gave you to Cerberus to resurrect?

[silentstephi]

Sharn01 wrote...

silentstephi wrote...

but i dont really care about jack, if you like characters that do little beyond curse at you, fine, i dont have to deal with it. my main problem is the terrible bit of cop-out that was liara; completely changing the base personality of a character because the writers couldnt think of a better way to tempt you with the new romances other than making you unanimously hate the old ones. seeing as they went absolutely nowhere with the shift of character and just hoped we would accept it, that is the only logical reason for it.

Really?  The fact that they've changed makes you hate the ME1 romances?  They've grown in two years, without Shep, and that makes them aweful people now?  How could they have stayed the same after two years?  That just doesn't make sense.  If Liara was the same in ME2, I'd actually have written her off as boring.  "Oh hey, you're back!  Isn't that so great!  Want to come to my latest dig site?  Oh no, you weren't dead, you just had a cough right?"  Hell, you're practically a zombie.  The way the person was before they might have just rejected you out of hand because YOU'VE COME BACK FROM THE DEAD.

Are there people who still do not know that Liara is the one who recovered your body and gave you to Cerberus to resurrect?

The option to get that conversation is subtle.  I missed it in my first play through.  So it's possible.

[Sailears]

Nice post OP. It's refreshing to gain some insight from your analysis.

[glacier1701]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Interesting post. I agree with you for the most part. Here are my two cents:

Story
While I did enjoy the story elements in ME2, I didn't enjoy it nearly as much as I did in ME1. It's a design choice by Bioware that I must respect, not them "dropping the ball" as some detractors claim. As opposed to the epic space opera of ME1, ME2 is a series of pulp fictions set in space. Recruiting for the suicide mission only serves as a thread that takes us through these intertwining stories of a ragtagged band of individuals, and their motivations of saving the galaxy.

Problem is, people are self-absorbed. We paid our $60 expecting the main course to be a Shepard's story, even though heavy promotion on squad mates would suggest otherwise. It seems that we can't really process the fact that Shepard's role in the story this time around is as the thread and sometimes, even a foil to his squad mates. And people don't like that because hey, I paid to play this game so that I can be the hero. We are not interested in the story if it's not about us.

Considering that the whole triology is supposed to be SHEPARD's STORY paying $60 and finding out ME2 is really a loosely connected group of vignettes about squadmates and nothing really to say about Shepard then there really is cause for complaint. Nothing within ME2 really developed Shepard any further from what we had at the end of ME1. If anything Shepard is further behind at the end of ME2 than at the end of ME1. To my mind ME2 (with suitable alterations) should have been the first game and then we get the story of ME1 as the second in the triology. It certainly would make a lot more sense than it does as things have been presented.

[anmiro]

I love BioWare and I would pre-order ME3 and SW:TOR right now if I could because I know they'll be quality games. But Mass Effect 2 felt more like an Action Adventure and less like an RPG because it simply does not cater to each players unique experience as they promised. The choices of Mass Effect 1 that I thought would enhance the story of Mass Effect 2, by making it unique to me, simply felt like bottle necks that every variable of the story had to pass through. This was most apparent when being reunited with the love interests of ME1. Aside from the awkward hug or kiss, the generality of these conversations make it clear that they could be speaking to anyone who played Mass Effect 1. This game made many improvements over ME1 and I enjoyed it immensely, but it did not feel like an RPG to me. And I think that is the worst thing that you can say about any Bioware game.

[Shazzie]

I loved most of the characters in ME2.

Jack is awesome. I only play females, though, so I was really disappointed to hit the wall of 'I'm not talking to you any longer because the only further dialogue they wrote for me is for romances'. Ugh. C'mon, BioWare, do I REALLY have to sleep with someone to be able to fully develop their character?

Miranda...again, no romance, but I liked her. The 'superiority' thing bugged me at first, but after conversation with her, it's more like...she keeps saying that because it was drilled into HER head. She was 'made better' so she has to 'be better' else she's a failure. I found it rather sad.

The one character I was disappointed in was Jacob. I haven't romanced him yet, but honestly, it's because I wasn't interested. As a female it seems I'm hitting on him from the first moment I talk to him, and I disliked that immensely. I didn't even know anything about the character yet, and he didn't seem to want to talk much, so I'm flirting with him. No thanks.

Someone commented about sidekicks earlier. I don't want to surround myself with sidekicks. I want to surround myself with unique, interesting characters that I want to get to know. BioWare did that. Kudos! 

[shinobi602]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

If BIoware intentionally created something they knew their fans would hate (Liara/Kaidan/Ashley's development, for example), then yes, they got it right.

I didn't hate their development one bit.

[ZennExile]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Oh and FYI if everyone hates something, the devs didn't get it right.

If BIoware intentionally created something they knew their fans would hate (Liara/Kaidan/Ashley's development, for example), then yes, they got it right. That being said, anyone arguing over Bioware's handling of any character in this game is just plain stupid. Characters were the focus of this game, and simply because you didn't like where they took a character doesn't make it wrong.

If you wanna argue that the writer's sucked in ME2, take shots at the shoddy overall storyarc. Character complaints are usually opinionated and fan-driven.

The character story arcs are no less hokey than the overall plot outline of a story they never fully fleshed out.  The characters are like their own little story except they have no purpose.  No reason for being other than some intern dreamt them up.  They were not well implemented because of the lack of over arching story elements that gave them purpose.  Half of the characters are just filler thrown in at the last minute to be "cool" hense Thane, Morinth, Zaeed...  Even Garrus and Tali aren't even properly fleshed out and they have preexisting ties to the story,

The story is supposed to bring the characters to life but since there is no story none of the characters come to life.  They are expendable characters.  The only one even remotely fitting my expectation of Bioware was Mordin and even that character sufferes because of a lack of depth to the overall experience.

I know it seems like you should be able to seperate the characters from the overaching story because the story was supposed to focus on them (or so we assume) but you can't because "the story" doesn't focus on anything.  The characters are fleshed out and tacked on without purpose.  The story is supposed to give them purpose.  By yer own admission it very much doesn't.

Modifié par ZennExile, 21 février 2010 - 11:59 .

[Ultrabobo]

I think i pretty much agree with everything the OP wrote, is more or less what i think but probably couldn't have written so well (minor difference, i've ended liking Miranda a lot, but that's subjective).

I do think ME2 is groundbreaking in many ways, expecially in how the characters were written and thought, i've liked all off them one way or another, just because were all different. I've appreciated being second guessed, i've sort of liked Jack's insults, it was part of the experience. Hell, i wouldn't want friends agreeing with me on everything in real life, about time i can get to argue in a videogame too. (Admittedly i've not enjoyed so much Zaeed, but i guess Speakeasy13 explained me why, shame on me!)

Aside that, i'd like to add something on the story, from a bigger picture side. Many complain about the lack of a main plot, but i think is just a wrong perspective (mind it, i've said i THINK, is my opinion, not a fact).
The main plot of ME2 is to build the team, not to fight the collectors. The collectors are a reason to recruit, not the whole point. Find people and gain their loyalty is the point. In the first chapter Shep found out the enemy, in the second gets ready to fight, the third will be about war. I find it appropriate to take the time to pick the right people and make sure they are committed.

Still, in my opinion, the chain moved, we're not at the same point of the end of ME1, Shep found out more about the Reapers, found closure in the whole Prothean matter, and most importantly all the loyalty quests added depth to our personal vision of Shepard. The way we handled each one evolved the main character in our personal way.
Sure, by the end of the game was again the man on his ship, but with a different resolve. Maybe not yet the leader of humanity, so to speak, but with the resolve to be the leader the galaxy needs for the upcoming war, that's huge.

Gah, ended up with a wall of text, better stop for now.

[Sharn01]

silentstephi wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

silentstephi wrote...

but i dont really care about jack, if you like characters that do little beyond curse at you, fine, i dont have to deal with it. my main problem is the terrible bit of cop-out that was liara; completely changing the base personality of a character because the writers couldnt think of a better way to tempt you with the new romances other than making you unanimously hate the old ones. seeing as they went absolutely nowhere with the shift of character and just hoped we would accept it, that is the only logical reason for it.

Really?  The fact that they've changed makes you hate the ME1 romances?  They've grown in two years, without Shep, and that makes them aweful people now?  How could they have stayed the same after two years?  That just doesn't make sense.  If Liara was the same in ME2, I'd actually have written her off as boring.  "Oh hey, you're back!  Isn't that so great!  Want to come to my latest dig site?  Oh no, you weren't dead, you just had a cough right?"  Hell, you're practically a zombie.  The way the person was before they might have just rejected you out of hand because YOU'VE COME BACK FROM THE DEAD.

Are there people who still do not know that Liara is the one who recovered your body and gave you to Cerberus to resurrect?

The option to get that conversation is subtle.  I missed it in my first play through.  So it's possible.

I wish they would have stuck to their origonal plan to make a gap between your death and waking in the lab where Liara and Legion are both trying to rescue your body from the Shadow Broker at the same time and end up meeting up and helping each other to get the job done, there would be so many fewer unanswered question's by the player's.

[DrunkenGoon]

I agree completely with the OP.. Simply put you can't please everyone.. For every person who loves the game their will be another who doesn't. The fact that people even bother to come here and post about the game means that in one way or another they got to you.. If you really hated this game you wouldn't waste your time on the official ME board.. Well either that or your just a troll..

[Mobile-Platform-928]

Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.

you and bioware seen to have forgotten that part.

If this is how you think stories should be told, perhaps this is not the game for you, my friend.

[ZennExile]

Sharn01 wrote...

silentstephi wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

silentstephi wrote...

but i dont really care about jack, if you like characters that do little beyond curse at you, fine, i dont have to deal with it. my main problem is the terrible bit of cop-out that was liara; completely changing the base personality of a character because the writers couldnt think of a better way to tempt you with the new romances other than making you unanimously hate the old ones. seeing as they went absolutely nowhere with the shift of character and just hoped we would accept it, that is the only logical reason for it.

Really?  The fact that they've changed makes you hate the ME1 romances?  They've grown in two years, without Shep, and that makes them aweful people now?  How could they have stayed the same after two years?  That just doesn't make sense.  If Liara was the same in ME2, I'd actually have written her off as boring.  "Oh hey, you're back!  Isn't that so great!  Want to come to my latest dig site?  Oh no, you weren't dead, you just had a cough right?"  Hell, you're practically a zombie.  The way the person was before they might have just rejected you out of hand because YOU'VE COME BACK FROM THE DEAD.

Are there people who still do not know that Liara is the one who recovered your body and gave you to Cerberus to resurrect?

The option to get that conversation is subtle.  I missed it in my first play through.  So it's possible.

I wish they would have stuck to their origonal plan to make a gap between your death and waking in the lab where Liara and Legion are both trying to rescue your body from the Shadow Broker at the same time and end up meeting up and helping each other to get the job done, there would be so many fewer unanswered question's by the player's.

This actually would have made some logical sense to the ME universe.  Apparently Bioware feels the ME universe is crap so they need to create a new one that doesn't make any damn sense.

[Sharn01]

They felt it would be to "confusing" for people who did not play ME1.

[BattleVisor]

You raise some good points

[ZennExile]

Sharn01 wrote...

They felt it would be to "confusing" for people who did not play ME1.

That is the most pathetic excuse I've heard so far.  "We have to make the second chapter completely different so people won't get confused if they never read the first chapter".  Really Captain?   Probing Uranus....

[Leather_Rebel90]

Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.

you and bioware seen to have forgotten that part.

Exactly, but I've never creditted BioWare for an over-abundance of brains when it comes to story writting. So far all their stories have been the same (Minus the BG Series); Join an anchient sect of Warriors (Grey Wardens, Spectre, etc.) and then travel to 3 or 4 key locations and then do the final mission.