116 réponses à ce sujet

[Leather_Rebel90]

I want to surround myself with unique, interesting characters that I want to get to know. BioWare did that. Kudos!

Exactly, Liara was a unique and interesting character, right up until the point that BioWare made her a very generic revenge-bent crazy. 

[Nozybidaj]

ZennExile wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

They felt it would be to "confusing" for people who did not play ME1.

That is the most pathetic excuse I've heard so far.  "We have to make the second chapter completely different so people won't get confused if they never read the first chapter".  Really Captain?   Probing Uranus....

Yeah I never understood why a reset in the middle of the trilogy would be less confusing to new players that don't know anything about what happened before anyway.  In fact all it probably did is confuse old players returning to the game from ME1 that were expecting to see a continuing story.  But its pretty clear that the returning players were never a priority when development was underway, so I guess it's perfectly acceptable by BW standards.

[Nozybidaj]

Leather_Rebel90 wrote...

I want to surround myself with unique, interesting characters that I want to get to know. BioWare did that. Kudos!

Exactly, Liara was a unique and interesting character, right up until the point that BioWare made her a very generic revenge-bent crazy. 

Reminds me a lot of a Blizzard version of character progression, I wouldn't be surprised to find her dropping "phat lewtz" in ME3.

[GuardianAngel470]

At first I though Liara was a poorly written character but the more I thought about it, the more I (think) I understood. In the first game she was naive, everyone can agree on that. Then you recruit her and take her on a mission to save the galaxy. I don't know about you but I after that I don't think I could go back to studying digsites. So you have this character that has been violently thrust into this world of violence and danger who had been this complete and utter book nerd, who wouldn't expect that person to react (or overreact) to their changed circumstances? I think Liara was portrayed as trying too hard because she was. She knew nothing about this world but she chose to engage in it. Would you expect the nearest nerd to transition well into ghetto culture? I wouldn't.



And remember, 2 years is like a week to the asari, I don't imagine their psychology is good at adapting quickly, certainly not like the salarians.

[Nizzemancer]

To find out the reason I hate jack you must follow this trail of words:



Chronicles of Riddick



Purgatory



Jack



Rip



Off



Lazy



Writers



+ I hate emos, and she's just as arrogant as miranda "I would steal this ship and nobody could stop me because I'm a biotic god bla bla"

[FlyinElk212]

@ Shinobi-- I didn't either, but after seeing all the backlash with Liara fans, I've got the feeling we're in the minority...or at least the very un-vocal majority.

ZennExile wrote...

The character story arcs are no less hokey than the overall plot outline of a story they never fully fleshed out. The characters are like their own little story except they have no purpose......They were not well implemented because of the lack of over arching story elements that gave them purpose.

I know it seems like you should be able to seperate the characters from the overaching story because the story was supposed to focus on them (or so we assume) but you can't because "the story" doesn't focus on anything. The story is supposed to give them purpose. By yer own admission it very much doesn't.

You know what, that was extremely well said. I suppose that since the "story" really IS supposed to be the characters, that arguing about the character's development isn't really that wrong. I do hope though that most fans take your side of the matter and choose to argue over the character's RELEVANCE to the story, and not just how "seeing Ashley/Kaidan turn on me made me pee my pants, and is totally a writing flaw!!!!!!!!111one"

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 22 février 2010 - 12:45 .

[Crowwalker100]

Suron wrote...

Liara's "hardening" only bothers me if you romanced her in ME1...

so you're the first she's been with sexually...she "loved" you.

You, her first real love, die...now everyone moves on..but in 2 years time..she met and got closer to someone then she EVER was to you somehow..her reaction shows this. She's obsessed with finding and taking down/killing the shadow broker for her "friends" death...so much so that she's not even really bothered with your return...sure she says some nice words..but then goes onto her complete obsession with the SB..

If pursuing a love interest in ME2 affects your ME1 "LI" in ME3...then Liara's is the one we better be given an option about her obsession and how she totally blew you off....OBVIOUSLY she's more interested in killing the SB over her "friends" death then she is with even the fact you're still alive.

She's the ONLY one that should be shot down entirely if there's a dialogue tree about "cheating" on ME1 LI's in ME2...ashley/kaiden can make a case perhaps..not Liara..she obviously moved passed you, found someone else, and now is obsessed with punishing that "friends" killer.

now from a non-romance viewpoint..it's whatever. But her entire callous demeanor towards in ME2 if you romanced her in ME1 is just a coldhearted face slap (on her part..not biowares.)

Liara, do not move on, she still love's Shep, the first hint of this is the kiss she gvies you if you are her LI, second she tells you why she is after SB, and it is not all about her firend, it also about SB trying to sell you to the Collecters. ( if you read the comic Redmention you find all this out ) . Also she owes a lot of debts to people in the process of finding and rescuing Shep. She wants to go with Shep but because ot the debt she can not.  She would not be surprised that Shep is alive she knew what Cerburus was up to.
Why people thinks here reaction to Shep is cold I have no idea..

Modifié par Crowwalker100, 22 février 2010 - 01:08 .

[Jarcander]

*sarcasm* Everyone certainly seem to hate these things devs got right. */sarcasm*

Modifié par Jarcander, 22 février 2010 - 01:11 .

[Sprgmr]

Since when did the idea that the loyalty missions (and their corresponding stories) have to relate to the main story? As Jacob says after the Collector ship, everybody has loose ends in their lives that they need to finish, since there is a good chance that they die. The game maybe lasts a maybe month (game time) so how could their lives (or past events in their lives) relate to your mission in any way? All of their stories are 5+ years in the making, whereas yours in only what, 3?

Concerning Zaeed, you can talk to him, just go down to him, hit talk, and he reveals parts of his life to you, memories of old. The easy ones to get are the ones about the helmet, model and rifle, but he will talk about other things too. Just hit talk talk about 3 times (per trip down), and then after his stories he says something like "I've wasted enough of your time." Then you go back later, as you would for any other character.

[Chuvvy]

Bioware went to far? I must have missed something or maybe I'm just cold. Nothing in Mass Effect effected me or made me sad other than Garrus always calibrating. The Tali hug thing was awkward More awkward than just standing their and trying to strike up a conversation with Garrus,while she had a mental break down. "So,Garrus I noticed you brought a sniper rifle and an assault rifle,that's cool." "I just brought this pistol,it works for me."



"You look out that window today,talk about stars."

[Peer of the Empire]

I wasn't disturbed by anything, I ignored Liara in ME1 and like what little convo I decided to have with her in ME2.  I don't respect Jack and I like Miranda

[ZennExile]

Sprgmr wrote...

Since when did the idea that the loyalty missions (and their corresponding stories) have to relate to the main story? As Jacob says after the Collector ship, everybody has loose ends in their lives that they need to finish, since there is a good chance that they die. The game maybe lasts a maybe month (game time) so how could their lives (or past events in their lives) relate to your mission in any way? All of their stories are 5+ years in the making, whereas yours in only what, 3?

The difference is their stories have nothing to do with the ME universe.  They are just random left field "amusement park rides" that have nothing to do with anything relavent to the mission.  Jacob's Dad woulda been fine pimpin his hoes until after Shepard save's the gallaxy.

The problem with all the random chracter arcs and no main plot is the lack of cohesion and purpose.  When you tell a story yer not supposed to describe how the grass got there.  You are supposed to describe how it feels when you walk across it with bare feet.  Do you understand?

[Frotality]

"Really?  The fact that they've changed makes you hate the ME1
romances?  They've grown in two years, without Shep, and that makes
them aweful people now?  How could they have stayed the same after two
years?  That just doesn't make sense.  If Liara was the same in ME2,
I'd actually have written her off as boring.  "Oh hey, you're back! 
Isn't that so great!  Want to come to my latest dig site?  Oh no, you
weren't dead, you just had a cough right?"  Hell, you're practically a
zombie.  The way the person was before they might have just rejected
you out of hand because YOU'VE COME BACK FROM THE DEAD."


the fact that they changed for the sole purpose of alienating you makes me hate them. they havent grown, theyve gone insane. the change is completely unbelieveable, and more importantly, im not even given good enough reason to even try to justify it, its just there. this is a case of swing and miss; liara becoming a cold-hearted walled up deviant COULD have made sense; shes young and unprepared for the kind of crap she had to deal with, shes gone through alot, and she should be very conflicted about shepard considering her part in reviving you and what she knows; but instead of having that be a dramatic obstacle to overcome, they go NOWHERE with it, they just expect me to accept it, do her quest, and leave. kaiden and ashley have that dramatic moment, and while it definitely doesnt develop as much as it should, at the very least they send you an email that reassures that you still have a relationship, but with a very big problem to deal with (cerberus) in the way of it. liara does nothing of the sort, i can fully understand her being conflicted and distant about seeing sheapard again, but we are never given any sign that she will ever feel differently. with the utter lack of development regarding such a massive shift in character (kaiden and ash can at least be chalked up to a misdemeanor), i wouldve rather not seen her than experience the alienating underdeveloped excuse of a cameo.



but your right, this like pretty much every story element in ME2 is riding on ME3. we call hope there is an appropriate emotional payoff in the finale of the mass effect trilogy (which could even make the sum of ME2's alienation of LIs and ME3's payoff a story telling masterpiece); but considering how weak every import decision has been for ME2, im not gonna just hope ME3 ends up being the greatest story ever told in a video game. as far as ME2 is concerned, the presentation of the LIs (and jack) is horrible. if this is indeed bioware's intention to develop them in ME3 by causing distrust and dislike in ME2 to make it all the more rewarding, then i sincerely hope they know how much work that will be, because as it stands in ME2, i do believe theyve bitten off more than this new writing department can chew.

[tvai]

One word: Zaeed

[KPnuts123]

Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.

you and bioware seen to have forgotten that part.

No story telling 101 = Characters that you  can identify and are unique.  Sidekicks are not always likeable and neither should they have to be.  The same with Villains as well.

In some of the books that I read I really like the Main Character and the Villain but can't stand the sidekicks in them.  To me this is intelligent writing, which is something that Bioware is good at with their characters.

For example in ME 1 I really liked Saren but couldn't stand Kaiden.  That's just one example but I have more.  I just can't think of any at the moment.

[Nozybidaj]

Frotality wrote...
they changed for the sole purpose of alienating you

That right there is the main problem.  If they couldn't come up with a compelling and believable way to create this dramatic "troubled second act of a 3 act romance" they really would have been better off to not have had them at all. 

It serves no purpose other than to cheapen the existing characters to give them such negative and out of place roles in the story.  If BW wanted us to forget them so badly they really could have just never mentioned them again instead of going out of their way to paint these negative portayals.  It makes me feel that the writer just had a grudge more than he was trying to tell any sort of convincing story with them.

[CatatonicMan]

I think the main problem with Liara is that you have about a 50% chance (probably more due to the way we read) of missing the most important dialogue involving her in ME2.

[ZennExile]

That's because it wasn't real Cat. Nothing ties Liara to this game other than a cameo that makes absolutley no sense. Liara the level headed Asari Scientist turned mad asari retard version of captain Ahab... It's like they crapped on the floor and painted the story with it on the wall.

Modifié par ZennExile, 22 février 2010 - 05:00 .

[CatatonicMan]

ZennExile wrote...

That's because it wasn't real Cat. Nothing ties Liara to this game other than a cameo that makes absolutley no sense. Liara the level headed Asari Scientist turned mad asari retard version of captain Ahab... It's like they crapped on the floor and painted the story with it on the wall.

Maybe. But they still shouldn't have let that conversation slip through. It makes it a bit more reasonable if you at least know something of what happened, rather than her just stonewalling you.

To be fair, though, few of the actual team members have any real ties to the story (aside from their acquisition/loyalty missions and whatever role they are assigned at the end). I really don't like how they cobbled together the story, personally.

Modifié par CatatonicMan, 22 février 2010 - 05:05 .

[ZennExile]

And that my friend is why so many people are not happy with the ME2 story.

[Mox Ruuga]

ZennExile wrote...

That's because it wasn't real Cat. Nothing ties Liara to this game other than a cameo that makes absolutley no sense. Liara the level headed Asari Scientist turned mad asari retard version of captain Ahab... It's like they crapped on the floor and painted the story with it on the wall.

"Liara -  the mad asari retard version of Captain Ahab"



Agreed. Though the scene lobotomized Shepard as well. The writers should have had him/her going WTF!? The best Shepard can do in the face of this pod person who looks like Liara, is to ask why she's so angry against the Shadow Broker.

Perhaps they should get a few writers from the DA:O team to write in some believable character moments for ME3?

[dreman9999]

Suron wrote...

Liara's "hardening" only bothers me if you romanced her in ME1...

so you're the first she's been with sexually...she "loved" you.

You, her first real love, die...now everyone moves on..but in 2 years time..she met and got closer to someone then she EVER was to you somehow..her reaction shows this. She's obsessed with finding and taking down/killing the shadow broker for her "friends" death...so much so that she's not even really bothered with your return...sure she says some nice words..but then goes onto her complete obsession with the SB..

If pursuing a love interest in ME2 affects your ME1 "LI" in ME3...then Liara's is the one we better be given an option about her obsession and how she totally blew you off....OBVIOUSLY she's more interested in killing the SB over her "friends" death then she is with even the fact you're still alive.

She's the ONLY one that should be shot down entirely if there's a dialogue tree about "cheating" on ME1 LI's in ME2...ashley/kaiden can make a case perhaps..not Liara..she obviously moved passed you, found someone else, and now is obsessed with punishing that "friends" killer.

now from a non-romance viewpoint..it's whatever. But her entire callous demeanor towards in ME2 if you romanced her in ME1 is just a coldhearted face slap (on her part..not biowares.)

Um......Liara still loves you....Link

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...


Perhaps they should get a few writers from the DA:O team to write in some believable character moments for ME3?

They should pull whoever wrote Leliana over to write all things concerning Liara moving forward, including any ME2 dlc/expansions as well as ME3. :happy:

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 22 février 2010 - 05:19 .

[Faust6999]

1.Liara having a new attitude doesn't bother me. Besides i think its a front and she is the same liara we all fell for. She just needed the tough exterior for show.

2. I actually LOVE jack! She is my favorite female companion in the whole game. She is also the deepest character in the game.

3. I neither like nor dislike miranda. She is great eye candy but her loyalty to cerberus is kind of annoying.