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What the Devs Got Right! (but everyone hates)


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#101
raichualuvsong

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ZennExile wrote...

Sprgmr wrote...

Since when did the idea that the loyalty missions (and their corresponding stories) have to relate to the main story? As Jacob says after the Collector ship, everybody has loose ends in their lives that they need to finish, since there is a good chance that they die. The game maybe lasts a maybe month (game time) so how could their lives (or past events in their lives) relate to your mission in any way? All of their stories are 5+ years in the making, whereas yours in only what, 3?


The difference is their stories have nothing to do with the ME universe.  They are just random left field "amusement park rides" that have nothing to do with anything relavent to the mission.  Jacob's Dad woulda been fine pimpin his hoes until after Shepard save's the gallaxy.

The problem with all the random chracter arcs and no main plot is the lack of cohesion and purpose.  When you tell a story yer not supposed to describe how the grass got there.  You are supposed to describe how it feels when you walk across it with bare feet.  Do you understand?


So you're saying it would've been totally awesome if on Jacob's loyalty mission there were Collectors back handing everyone on the planet and it turned into a race against time to get to Jacob's father just so they could arrest Jacob's father before the Collectors turned him into a human/Reaper bastard child?  

Each character in the game gave their own reasons for wanting to join Shepard.  For better or worse.  Each loyalty mission was used to serve as a connection to each character's reasoning in one way or another.  It wasn't always executed properly but to say it lacked cohesion or purpose just makes you sound like you weren't paying attention to the story at all. 

#102
Aradace

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I actually agree with MOST of what the OP stated except for the Liara part....To me, she sounded hilarious when you meet her on Illium and she's trying to be all intimidating...Hell, she couldnt even use an original line and had to bum one from her dead mother: "Have you ever faced an Asari commando unit before? Few Humans have..." that line, was pure, F***ing, LOSS!! Liara's such a poser lol

#103
CheesesackIII

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Like most people in this thread (most, not all), I agree with all your points except for the one about how Liara becoming 'hardened' was good storytelling. Allow me to explain my point of view.



There seem to be two camps when it comes to this issue. There are those who think that it was poor writing/devs being lazy/devs trying too hard to make us hate the ME 1 LI's so we'd cheat/devs trying too hard to make the game 'dark' and 'edgy' (the camp that I'm in.) Then there are those who think Liara's 'development' was justified because she's been through hell/it's a facade she has to maintain/she's moved on from Shepard/she's in love with someone else (Feron or whatever he was called).



Firstly, I'd like to define what I think (this is my opinion of course, not fact) is meant by the word 'development'. Ironically, we need look no further than ME 2 itself to see fine examples of character developent. There's the two returning squadmates for a start.



Tali has obviously matured and become more worldy wise, so to speak, yet she is still very much the same person we loved/hated/were ambivalent to in ME 1. Despite thinking Shepard was dead and being interested in him in ME 1 (by her own admission if you romance her), she managed to remain pretty much the same optimistic, feisty character she always had been. Is this unrealistic? Not in the slightest.



Then there's Garrus. Again, he's certainly changed since ME 1, becoming a vigelante and, some would argue, more ruthless. Yet this is called 'devlopmet' and not 'completey altering' because it's really just an extension of who he was originally. He's always hated injustice and without someone to reign him in (Paragon Shepard in ME 1), he's prone to a certain degree of overzealousness. This is simply a realistic tweaking of his personality in response to Shepards death.



Wrex is another good example. Even though he cannot join you, the reasoning behind it is solid. In a way, he's doing what he's doing on Shepards behalf. After all, it was Shepard in ME 1 who called him on his attitude towards the Krogan people and perhaps persuaded him to re-evaluate his priorities.



Even the reunion with Ashley/Kaiden makes sense on a certain level. Although the fact they just brush Shepard off without giving him/her a chance to explain is a bit of a cop-out, especially if they were your LI, it is understandable why they do it. They specifically state that they're sticking to their ideal of being an alliance soldier, which is very much true to their character in ME 1. Whilst their stubborness does come off a tad ridiculous, especially when they trusted Shepard completely before, it's clear that they're still more or less who they were orginally. Even if it wasn't handled as well as the development of Garrus or Tali, they're development it still more of an adjustment rather than a total re-write.



Which of course, leads me to Liara. Just to make this clear, I have seen the 'hidden' dialouge with her, in fact, I got it on my first playthrough since I normally try to explore all the 'Investigate' options. What we see here is not 'development', at least not as I see it. 'Development' implies that the character has grown within themselves, that their personality had expanded and shifted based on certain events. What we see with Liara is a complete 180; a total rewrite of who she was before. That's not 'develpment'.



It's true that you would not expect her to be quite so innocent as she was in ME 1, after all that she went through with Shepard. That would be unrealistic, and I agree that she should have matured somewhat between the two games. Unfortunately, it appears Bioware interpretted 'matured' as 'turn into the polar opposite of what she was before by making her a cold-hearted murderer who's entire life revolves entirely around petty, unjustfied revenge'. Apart from that one 'hidden' line, there is no relation whatsoever between the new Liara and the old. People say she 'went through hell', but that's just a blatant exxaguration. What actually happen to her? She found your body, got attacked by agents of the Shadow Broker who was trying to steal it off her and eventually gave it to Cerberus so they could ressurect you. Since everyone else thought you were dead and she was the only one who knew you were coming back, she has even less reasons to move on than they do. As for being attacked, if you took her in your squad in ME 1, she's repeatedly put into life-threatening situations and extreme danger. Hell, she saw Shepard kill her mother right in front of her and aside from feeling a bit sad, it didn't affect her at all. The only 'hellish' thing she experienced was the guilt of turning Shepard over to a sworn enemy and I fail to see how that alone could cause such a massive morality shift.



In short, her 'developmet' is completely unrealistic and out of proportion to the 'hell' she went through. In reality, her experiences were no worse than anyone else's in the squad and they all came through with their personality intact. Aside from that one throwaway line, everything she's become is in such complete contradiction to who she was before that it's almost laughable. Even the comment about 'being unable to let you go' is irrelevant, since she says it even if you were insulting and horrible to her in ME 1.



Seeing her grow up a bit would be realistic. Seeing her conflicting emotions about whether she did the right thing would be realistic. Seeing her threatening to kill people, asking Shepard to pick out targets for her, ignoring any romanitc involvement with Shepard to the point of showing no emotion about his return whatsoever...that's not realistic, that's bullsh't.

#104
Mox Ruuga

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I agree completely re:Liara, Cheesesack.

Every other ME1 squaddie except Liara built on the foundation established in ME1 (with Tali, there wasn't that much to build on, so she had more of a free pass than the others). Liara's character was turned 180 degrees, and inexplicably Shepard wasn't even allowed to really question her about it. Do the devs really think everyone playing the game will end up reading the comic book? Most ME2 players never will, and Liara will remain as the "crazed" asari to them. Besides, the grimdarkification was so poorly done that there really was no sight of the old Liara left. It's like they kept the character model and the voice actress, and transplanted another personality in the old one's place.

#105
AngryFrozenWater

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Mox Ruuga wrote...

I agree completely re:Liara, Cheesesack.

Every other ME1 squaddie except Liara built on the foundation established in ME1 (with Tali, there wasn't that much to build on, so she had more of a free pass than the others). Liara's character was turned 180 degrees, and inexplicably Shepard wasn't even allowed to really question her about it. Do the devs really think everyone playing the game will end up reading the comic book? Most ME2 players never will, and Liara will remain as the "crazed" asari to them. Besides, the grimdarkification was so poorly done that there really was no sight of the old Liara left. It's like they kept the character model and the voice actress, and transplanted another personality in the old one's place.

Yet another post of you that I agree with. Good post by Cheesesack as well. If I didn't read about that merchandise thingie (the comic) I would never had any idea what was going on. So the characters which romanced Liara are experimenting now. One did her mission and played the adoring Liara fan who was grateful to be sold to Cerberus (ahem) and the others are experimenting with not visiting her at all or just talking to her and refusing the mission. Still... It's odd that you can visit your LI, but not properly  talk to her or break up with her.

BTW: I am not sure about Wrex. I always felt that Shepard tried to change him, but that Wrex had enough of it. Especially after his father betrayed him. He would rather go where the action is. And the action is with Shepard.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 22 février 2010 - 01:12 .


#106
UnknownVisitor

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Dang.  That's really extensive and all of it completely true.  I agree w/ the OP. 
Especially the part on Miranda.  I  really hate Miranda.  I can't stand people like that.  Bioware hasn't dropped the ball yet so here's to hoping they can crank it up a notch for ME3. 

#107
matt-bassist

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Cheers to the OP. He is absolutely right. This game is amazing. A terrific achievement.

#108
Nozybidaj

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CheesesackIII wrote...
In short, her 'developmet' is completely unrealistic and out of proportion to the 'hell' she went through. In reality, her experiences were no worse than anyone else's in the squad and they all came through with their personality intact. Aside from that one throwaway line, everything she's become is in such complete contradiction to who she was before that it's almost laughable. Even the comment about 'being unable to let you go' is irrelevant, since she says it even if you were insulting and horrible to her in ME 1.

Seeing her grow up a bit would be realistic. Seeing her conflicting emotions about whether she did the right thing would be realistic. Seeing her threatening to kill people, asking Shepard to pick out targets for her, ignoring any romanitc involvement with Shepard to the point of showing no emotion about his return whatsoever...that's not realistic, that's bullsh't.


CheesesackIII is pretty much spot on here.  The degree of change is simply unbelievable to the point of being comical.  While the other members of the ME1 cast had realistic development (if still dissapointing with Ash/Kaidan) they went completely overbaord with Liara. 

I find it hard to believe it wasn't intentionally overdone, whether it was to promote people cheating, whether it was just a case of a writer having a chip on their shoulder, or just BW trying to retcon the character.  Whatever the case it was insulting not only to the character Liara used to be, but also to my intelligence as a fan.  BW take such pride in being "great story tellers" that it is a little confusing why they chose to go down this path.  At the least it shows that even BW isn't immune to going "amateur hour" once in a while.

#109
Br0th3rGr1mm

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Frotality wrote...

story telling 101= sidekicks are supposed to be liked, it VILLIANS that should be hated.

you and bioware seen to have forgotten that part.

You obviously fall outside the "mature" portion of this converstaion and are drawing your story telling experience from fairy tales.   I don't fully agree with the OPs assessment of the story arcs he chooses to praise, but your imlication that sidekicks must be loved comes from comic book fare and ignores the possible realities of life...especially in fiction that aspires to be more than a summer blockbuster movie.

Suron wrote...

Liara's "hardening" only bothers me if you romanced her in ME1...

so you're the first she's been with sexually...she "loved" you.
.....

The assumptions that you apply to your one night stand with Liara are astounding.  The fact that she is barely an Asari teenager and entering the stage in her life where Asari are famous for "sowing wildoats", makes your assumptions about how your relatiojnship continued AFTER your one KNOWN night together before Ilos almost laughable. 
Liara fans have projected an entire DEEP relationship between Shepherd and Liara that Bioware has NEVER acknowledged (the same goes for Ashely/Kaiden fans).  LI fans need to seperate themselves from the "fantasy" relationship they invisioned after the end of ME1 and accept that while a relationship of some sort continued, it was not the "love of your life" ordeal invisioned by many.

Modifié par Br0th3rGr1mm, 22 février 2010 - 03:41 .


#110
Nozybidaj

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Br0th3rGr1mm wrote...
...especially in fiction that aspires to be more than a summer blockbuster movie.


We're not talking about ME2 any more then are we? :P

#111
Br0th3rGr1mm

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Nozybidaj wrote...

Br0th3rGr1mm wrote...
...especially in fiction that aspires to be more than a summer blockbuster movie.


We're not talking about ME2 any more then are we? :P

I did say I didn't fully agree with the OPs statement, just that if it actually TRIES to be something more, sidekicks doing things we don't sympathize with aren't out of the question.  I think the ME story (so far) succeeds in this to some extent (but it's still a space opera at heart).

#112
Nozybidaj

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Br0th3rGr1mm wrote...
LI fans need to seperate themselves from the "fantasy" relationship they invisioned after the end of ME1 and accept that while a relationship of some sort continued, it was not the "love of your life" ordeal invisioned by many.


I disagree with you on one thing here.  Replace "ME1" with "ME2" in that sentence and I would agree.  There are plenty of innuendo and even outright dialogue options that show the ME1 relationships were more than just a quickie one night stand before Ilos.  I think in ME2 though it is pretty obvious they are purely physical relationships since once you turn them down they no longer can even be bothered to talk to you.

#113
FlintlockJazz

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I have to agree with the OP. I was actually quite relieved with Jack, while the tattoos and piercings themselves didn't put me off, knowing how the media usually portrays characters with them coupled with Jack's trailer made me worry that she was gonna be one of 'those' types of characters, but she thankfully proved to have depth and character and is actually rather likable, while her loyalty mission shows a great deal of character development for her.

#114
CheesesackIII

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Br0th3rGr1mm wrote...
The assumptions that you apply to your one night stand with Liara are astounding.  The fact that she is barely an Asari teenager and entering the stage in her life where Asari are famous for "sowing wildoats", makes your assumptions about how your relatiojnship continued AFTER your one KNOWN night together before Ilos almost laughable. 
Liara fans have projected an entire DEEP relationship between Shepherd and Liara that Bioware has NEVER acknowledged (the same goes for Ashely/Kaiden fans).  LI fans need to seperate themselves from the "fantasy" relationship they invisioned after the end of ME1 and accept that while a relationship of some sort continued, it was not the "love of your life" ordeal invisioned by many.

Really? Did Liara ever give any indication that she was the kind of Asari that went around stripping and joining merc bands during her maiden years? Apart from that, did you actually listen to any of the conversations with her in ME 1. While she never actually says she loves you, the implication is very strong as she talks about never trusting anyone else as much as you/wanting you to be her first etc.
Also, when you meet Ashley or kaiden on Horizin, they actually do say that they loved you. Considering how (jn my opinion) the realtionship with Liara seemed a lot more intense and emotional than with Kaiden or Ash it seems laughable to think that it COULD possibly have been a one night stand. True, they only had one confirmed night together, but that was kind of because of the fact they had to kill Saren/stop Sovereign and then Shepard died a few weeks later.

#115
CraigHB

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I didn't "get" Liara at first. She was my LI in ME1, but didn't make any sense to me when she was suddenly a different person in ME2. It took me a while to get it, but I understand now and don't have a problem with it.

I think Miranda is a very well developed character. If my feelings toward the character are any indication, I strongly disliked her when I first met her, but came to like her quite a bit toward the end. That seems like good character development to me.

Jack is a very interesting character to  me.  I have not persued any LI in her because of the haircut and tatoos, but even so, she has some great lines and she's the most antagonistic of all the sidekicks.  Again, I think that's good story.

If ME3 goes on to develop the main plot, then the context of ME2 will make a lot more sense in that it spent way more time on the sideckicks than the main story.

Modifié par CraigHB, 23 février 2010 - 01:21 .


#116
Guest_LuckyIronAxe_*

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I had no problem with Liara, In the first game she hit on me and I was like "no I'm intrested in Ashely" then Ashely blew up on Virdmire and I was like "NOOOO" so in the second game I got a stern talking to by Carth Alenko or is it Kaidan Onasi? and I never really liked Liara, didn't show her much love, it wasn't all that that suprising when she jumped off the deep end and refused to be pulled in by me, so I left her to her petty revenge quest, vowed to befriend Kaiden again after the I blow up a collector base, and hooked up with Tali (who I wanted to hook up with when I did my first playthru of Mass Effect 1)



As for mature themes, totally agree, bioware did a great job especially with the three examples of Jacob, Tali, and Mordin. My three favorite favor missions in fact.



As for Jack I don't like her for personal reasons, she acts and looks just like my sister, and she's unpleasant to be around.

#117
Kreidian

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LuckyIronAxe wrote...

I had no problem with Liara, In the first game she hit on me and I was like "no I'm intrested in Ashely" then Ashely blew up on Virdmire and I was like "NOOOO" so in the second game I got a stern talking to by Carth Alenko or is it Kaidan Onasi? and I never really liked Liara, didn't show her much love, it wasn't all that that suprising when she jumped off the deep end and refused to be pulled in by me, so I left her to her petty revenge quest, vowed to befriend Kaiden again after the I blow up a collector base, and hooked up with Tali (who I wanted to hook up with when I did my first playthru of Mass Effect 1)

As for mature themes, totally agree, bioware did a great job especially with the three examples of Jacob, Tali, and Mordin. My three favorite favor missions in fact.

As for Jack I don't like her for personal reasons, she acts and looks just like my sister, and she's unpleasant to be around.


As far as mature missions go, I really should add the Samara Loyalty quest in there as well as one of my favorites. The whole purpose of the mission is to literally hunt down a sexual predator. ( I half expected Chris Hansen to pop out from behind the couch at some point. ) Still it is very well done, and potentially very disturbing when you think about it, particularly if you get the chance to save Morinth over Samara.

As for Jack, ... well I can't say anything regarding your sister here, but at least you have a good reason for not liking her. Most people seem to have decided they hate her based on some pretty stupid reasons. Near the top is, of all things, her haircut. Some go so far as to claim that this ruins the character.

If anything her haircut helps make the character. She's a convict and a killer, the kind that makes other serial killers afraid of her. Hell having people not like her because of her haircut is only more reason why she would keep it shaved.