130 réponses à ce sujet

[babylonfreak]

Sometimes, when a friend is wrong, and is being stubborn about it, you have to kick them in the ass or slap them upside the head a few times. Yes, the Paragon lines are harsh, but Paragon isn't "whiny little ****". Paragon is you do what's morally RIGHT even when it seems tactically wrong. And you are damn well not letting anyone get away with going the easy route just because it's easy. Mordin is trying to justify what he did. He needs a good shove to get him off his intellectual pedestal so he can take a good hard look at it.

[FataliTensei]

I agreed that the genophage was necessary at the time, but at the same time it needs a cure, now, regardless of Mordin's calculations the krogan are dying out, so I was flip-floppy with my dialouge on that mission.



In the end I convinced him to cure the genophage though

[TheLostGenius]

Well if you save Wrex, and the Genophage then their is a really just cause for Krogan reform in ME3, which include a large and less hostile population of Krogan that could ally against the Reaper's.

[Fjordgnu]

I don't pick my dialogue according to what the paragon and renegade options are, but according to what I feel is right. My stance on that in particular is that it was necessary, but wrong, and I think that reflected in the dialogue.

[Schroing]

SelphieSK wrote...

I didn't like the paragon responses on Mordin's loyalty mission either, Shepard acts like an irrational idealist.
I always pick Renegade ones here, they seem more logical imo.

Idealism is what being a paragon is about.

[EatinMcRib]

I like to do it the lazy way and remain impartial during his quest.

[Bigdoser]

babylonfreak wrote...

Sometimes, when a friend is wrong, and is being stubborn about it, you have to kick them in the ass or slap them upside the head a few times. Yes, the Paragon lines are harsh, but Paragon isn't "whiny little ****". Paragon is you do what's morally RIGHT even when it seems tactically wrong. And you are damn well not letting anyone get away with going the easy route just because it's easy. Mordin is trying to justify what he did. He needs a good shove to get him off his intellectual pedestal so he can take a good hard look at it.

This. Oh yeah mordin loylaty mission is the best imo.

[Urazz]

TheLostGenius wrote...

Their is a hypocritical analogy in the ME universe. The Genophage being condoned, a form very near to genocide...while the Reaper's want to commit genocide against all species is wrong. Much like the Quarians want to commit genocide to the Geth yet most would sympathize with them. So in ME, sometimes Genocide is right, and sometimes Genocide is wrong? Always thought they played with that idea in ani ntieresting way.

Actually, the Genophage isn't a form of genocide.  There are still a ton of Krogan in the galaxy and it pretty much forces the Krogan to be less warhungry.  Hence, why most pragmatists will keep the Genophage cure data on Mordin's loyalty quest but not use it.

Sure it sucks but it was necessity because the Salarians/the Council let the Krogan be elevated artificially to be a spacefarring race to beat the Rachni before they were ready.

[TheLostGenius]

Urazz wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

Their is a hypocritical analogy in the ME universe. The Genophage being condoned, a form very near to genocide...while the Reaper's want to commit genocide against all species is wrong. Much like the Quarians want to commit genocide to the Geth yet most would sympathize with them. So in ME, sometimes Genocide is right, and sometimes Genocide is wrong? Always thought they played with that idea in ani ntieresting way.

Actually, the Genophage isn't a form of genocide.  There are still a ton of Krogan in the galaxy and it pretty much forces the Krogan to be less warhungry.  Hence, why most pragmatists will keep the Genophage cure data on Mordin's loyalty quest but not use it.

Sure it sucks but it was necessity because the Salarians/the Council let the Krogan be elevated artificially to be a spacefarring race to beat the Rachni before they were ready.

Technically no, but reducing a populating by 99.99% is pretty damn close to it. We could call it a "light" genocide.

[cronshaw8]

aaniadyen wrote...

I just replayed through Mordin's loyalty mission again, all of the paragon dialogue seemed really harsh on him. He says he thinks modifying the genophage was the best option. If the Krogan were allowed to advance further, their thrist for conquest would lead to a very bloody war, probably resulting in Krogan genocide. He said the work he did was hard to live with. It kept him up at night, caused him to have a religious crisis, and to ultimately open up a med-clinic on Omega out of penance. He thinks he did the right thing, and he still really beats himself up over it...and all paragon Shepard has to say is "Yeah, you're an ****. You didn't help anyone, just look at all these dead test subjects." I mean...what the ****? That's not cool. He's clearly sorry for what he did, and he only did it because it would result in the least loss of life. He actually says that he had to work hard to make sure the birth rate didn't drop too low, either. Then Shepard's paragon response is kicking him while he's down? That was pretty ****ty.

I handleded the dialogue this way. I started out with the paragon options, because i tend towards the "nice guy" choices in video games. Anyway as mordin started expalining stuff i thought to myself he does kinda make sense so eventually my shepard agreed with mordin that the genophage was necessary. I still didn't let him kill maelon, but we destroyed maelon's research.

[TheLostGenius]

I think if you let Maelon live he will be a villain in ME3. Mordin even states that it was a mistake to let him live.

[Nizzemancer]

TheLostGenius wrote...

Well if you save Wrex, and the Genophage then their is a really just cause for Krogan reform in ME3, which include a large and less hostile population of Krogan that could ally against the Reaper's.

Mordin states that he is years away from a cure, and he doesn't seem to be in a hurry "what about it? It's over there somewhere, need to focus on collector data", so unless the reapers arrive several years into the future (like a decade or two) there won't be a cure by then.

[TheLostGenius]

Nizzemancer wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

Well if you save Wrex, and the Genophage then their is a really just cause for Krogan reform in ME3, which include a large and less hostile population of Krogan that could ally against the Reaper's.

Mordin states that he is years away from a cure, and he doesn't seem to be in a hurry "what about it? It's over there somewhere, need to focus on collector data", so unless the reapers arrive several years into the future (like a decade or two) there won't be a cure by then.

How much of time lapse will their between ME2 and ME3? ME1 and ME2 was two years. Between 2-3 it could be a decade for all we know.

[raichualuvsong]

As a Krogan I disapprove. *headbutts*

[chelseaisthepan]

yeah, I felt like a **** when I picked the paragon choices.

[kanodin]

Nizzemancer wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

Well if you save Wrex, and the Genophage then their is a really just cause for Krogan reform in ME3, which include a large and less hostile population of Krogan that could ally against the Reaper's.

Mordin states that he is years away from a cure, and he doesn't seem to be in a hurry "what about it? It's over there somewhere, need to focus on collector data", so unless the reapers arrive several years into the future (like a decade or two) there won't be a cure by then.

I don't recall him saying it would take years, just that it wasn't close to being done yet. Further a long time to finish it for Mordin a Salarian might be a lot less then we would consider a long time to be, especially when he's in his final decade of life as he puts it. If the time lapse is more then a year or two he could have completed it at that point.

[trigger2kill1]

Mordin is definately cool and purely mathmatical. Though what Shepard says is most clearly off base. This comming from a guy who swears like any 2 sailors. Fact if Shep was trully paragon he would never talk like that, hell he was never that harsh with the Quarians. Never was he this harsh in talking to any of the cerberus personnel. When was he this much of a jerk to the Baterian Slaver/merc that tried to kill the colony in the ME1 dlc (Bring Down the Sky). For real I smell a trend here.
That is he is civil.
Especialy since it seems that Mordins choices were only bad and wtf. Talk about being in a situation where your damned if you do and when you don't. Everytime, so why on this occasion is he such a flaming pr!ck? The renagade comments were the typical stern but understanding shep. Wonder if it wasn't an oversite and they gave it a 180 on all the dia/wheel. Ooooooops wouldn't that be the sh!t.

Modifié par trigger2kill1, 22 février 2010 - 03:15 .

[Austichar]

I always leaned toward neutral and slightly renegade in his loyality mission. I do slightly agree with the genophage and that the Krogan are really out of control.

[no00dylan]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Yea but its paragon because what Mordin was doing was wrong. And mordin starts to agree a bit with you and understand.

I agree. Paragon isnt always the nice thing, sometimes its the right thing, and sometimes its the mean thing to accomplish the right thing. Take Zaeeds loyalty quest for instance, one paragon interrupt to get him to understand you don't risk lives on a mission is punching him in the jaw. Yeah, punching him wasnt too cool, but since Zaeed responds to violence, it was the only way to get your point across.

[Esker02]

TheLostGenius wrote...

Their is a hypocritical analogy in the ME universe. The Genophage being condoned, a form very near to genocide...while the Reaper's want to commit genocide against all species is wrong. Much like the Quarians want to commit genocide to the Geth yet most would sympathize with them. So in ME, sometimes Genocide is right, and sometimes Genocide is wrong? Always thought they played with that idea in ani ntieresting way.

Geth are only machines - is a product recall on a line of cars genocide? Genophage isn't genocide... its very purpose was to avoid that extreme. Although, I will say as a general rule

TheLostGenius wrote...

sometimes Genocide is right, and sometimes Genocide is wrong?

Yes.

[Blue Walrus]

My Shep's against the genophage, but she's also a highly rational person who understands Mordin's arguments. Like a couple of other folks here, I showed that by picking enough paragon options to challenge his decision, but not the ones that amounted to berating him. I have great respect for Mordin, so I handled it as gently as I could without relenting on my own beliefs. I've always felt that picking straight Paragon options is just asking to come off as "lawful stupid" anyway. I don't think any real person is 100% one extreme or the other.

[Blue Walrus]

Esker02 wrote...

Geth are only machines - is a product recall on a line of cars genocide?

My car isn't self aware.

[Esker02]

Blue Walrus wrote...

Esker02 wrote...

Geth are only machines - is a product recall on a line of cars genocide?

My car isn't self aware.

And neither are the Geth.

[TheLostGenius]

Esker02 wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

Their is a hypocritical analogy in the ME universe. The Genophage being condoned, a form very near to genocide...while the Reaper's want to commit genocide against all species is wrong. Much like the Quarians want to commit genocide to the Geth yet most would sympathize with them. So in ME, sometimes Genocide is right, and sometimes Genocide is wrong? Always thought they played with that idea in ani ntieresting way.

Geth are only machines - is a product recall on a line of cars genocide? Genophage isn't genocide... its very purpose was to avoid that extreme. Although, I will say as a general rule

TheLostGenius wrote...

sometimes Genocide is right, and sometimes Genocide is wrong?

Yes.

Reducing a population by 99.99% is not extreme, but Reducing it by 100% IS? 

[Esker02]

TheLostGenius wrote...

Reducing a population by 99.99% is not extreme, but Reducing it by 100% IS? 

A quick check of the definition of Genocide revealed "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group." It would appear your usage was proper, my mistake. Regardless, the moral issue still doesn't exist. It was an appropriate action - it's easy to sympathize with them, but for every Wrex or fish interested krogan there are about 50 blood thirsty krogan STILL bent on killing everything they see. It's simply their nature. The Genophage was the best possible solution.

For instance (and I only use this example because you used the Geth), let's say the ME3 solution to Reapers is an uploadable virus that would disable and destroy them all. Would you hesitate because it would be genocide? Of course not. Morality doesn't exist in absolutes.

Modifié par Esker02, 22 février 2010 - 03:38 .