130 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulmoka531]

After listening to Mordin, the intial genophage seemed like the right choice, for a time at least.



But modifying it was a different story....

[anmiro]

I don't see the Genophage as genocide. It was never intended to wipe out the Krogan. It was only meant to slow the reproduction to a sustainable level. This is not confirmed but I'm pretty sure the situation with the Krogan is based on the Cane Toads of Australia. If you don't know anything about it, those crazy Aussies tried get rid of these beetles(Rachni) that were decimating their sugar cane crops, by importing Cane Toads (which even look a lot like Krogan). They expected the frogs to eat the beatles, but the plan completely backfired and the Toads population exploded and are now wreaking havoc on their ecosystem.

[Blue Walrus]

Esker02 wrote...

Blue Walrus wrote...

Esker02 wrote...

Geth are only machines - is a product recall on a line of cars genocide?

My car isn't self aware.

And neither are the Geth.

How so?  They are capable of questioning their place in the universe, and you can't exactly wonder about the nature of your existence without being aware of that existence.  They are capable of independent thought (otherwise how could they have rebelled, as I seriously doubt that was programmed into them) and they exercise free will.

[TheDFO]

For people wondering about why a Paragon shep is such a dick here, I think it's obvious. The genophage is an analogue (a poor one, imo) for the A-bombs that the US dropped on Japan.



They're ending war by using weapons of mass (and I do mean mass) destruction.



Personally, I find shep's answers just completely ignorant. If they had of not used it, they would have had decades or centuries more of warfare, in which either the Krogan are completely wiped out, or the council races are torn apart.



One of the codex talk about how the Krogan where given a world that would be considered harsh by any other species, and the families produced HUNDREDS of children a piece. Each couple (assuming they have two sexes), producing over a hundred kids? Even if they take a century or two to mature like the Asari, that means that every 100-200 years the population would go up 50 or 100 fold. Not only did the Krogan not see this as a long term problem, but they didn't even see it as a short term problem when they kept driving their colonies eco-systems into the ground.



That said, I think it would be easier to make the genophage reduce the fertility rate to 1/100 or more, not increase the infant mortality rate. Oh well.

[DaeJi]

You know, if the genophage affected conception rates instead of fetus development, it would probably be a lot more popular. Millions of still-births have a weird effect on people.

[trigger2kill1]

The only thing that mordin took away from the Krogan was 500+ years that they could reproduce like rats. He took but the ability away when it was given to them by a greedy galaxy. They stopped the REAPERS with their Rachni attacks. Then they went nuts, destroyed countless glactic colonies. Because they are a bunch of cavemen with no natural predators or ability to refrain to responsible population control of there own. They wouldn't even limit birth rates at all. Several hundred per family per generation. That is not sustainable without conquest period. Mordin did a tough thing for the galaxy and took all the blame onto himself.

[Esker02]

Blue Walrus wrote...

How so?  They are capable of questioning their place in the universe, and you can't exactly wonder about the nature of your existence without being aware of that existence.  They are capable of independent thought (otherwise how could they have rebelled, as I seriously doubt that was programmed into them) and they exercise free will.

Simulating the actions you describe (like the Geth do, as they are machines) does not mean actually experiencing them.

Moreover, I don't even need to go there. You said the Geth are "self aware" - out of the terms you could throw out (sapience, for instance, would be easier) to prove the Geth's ... "life," that one in particular is problematic. Any individual Geth (that is, platform) only loosely has anything we might meaningfully call a self, and even demonstrates outwardly its own struggle to understand the concept.

It's a number of programs that collectively happen to replicate actions that real living beings engage in, that again only happen to occupy the same platform to give it the false presentation of a cohesive body. Legion's inability to make a meaningful decision regarding the outcome of the Heretics demonstrates this. There's no personality, character, or will there. It's a machine, nothing more.

But this is getting off topic, yes?

[Schneidend]

Esker02 wrote...

And neither are the Geth.

I suppose you're technically correct, as the modern geth don't acknowledge that there are individual geth in the same way we do, and thus they have no "self." Still, though, they are an intelligence, no matter how you slice it. Whether or not they are "life" is what is debatable, I suppose.

Aaaanyway. All this talk about the genophage being wrong is hogwash. The krogan would overrun the entire known galaxy in mere centuries if they had their original population growth rates. They simply aren't responsible enough as a species to curb their growth on their own initiative yet. Up until they were hit with the genophage, everything about the krogan, culturally and genetically, was built around having lots of babies. Krogan warfare was once purely based on swarm tactics. It's only in recent centuries that they adopted the battlemaster system and began formulating proper strategy. There simply wasn't enough time to allow the krogan to adapt on their own, and so the genophage brought about the catalyst for change artificially.

[trigger2kill1]

DaeJi wrote...

You know, if the genophage affected conception rates instead of fetus development, it would probably be a lot more popular. Millions of still-births have a weird effect on people.

That is a load of bullsh!t
Think about it they are used to thousands of there own children dying by being prey to larger animals. They should have been taught to bury there dead. When they became the largest predator.

They were a prey animal brought arbitarily to the top of the food chain overnight.

[DaeJi]

trigger2kill1 wrote...

That is a load of bullsh!t
Think about it they are used to thousands of there own children dying by being prey to larger animals. They should have been taught to bury there dead. When they became the largest predator.

They were a prey animal brought arbitarily to the top of the food chain overnight.

There's a difference between a child that lost their life and one that never had a chance (after developing in the womb; not getting into any real world debates). A Krogan even mentions the masses of dead children never given a shot at life. Birthing dead children en mass is going to have a negative impact on a species' mindset, no matter what their circumstances were before. Had the genophage limited the rate of females conceiving children, the Krogan would be in a much better state culturally and still not have the overbreeding problem they had before.

Oh, and the Krogan were the top of the food chain before the Salarians came; weapon technology, guns especially, tend to bump you up a few thousand knots.

Modifié par DaeJi, 22 février 2010 - 04:09 .

[trigger2kill1]

But hundreds of your children getting eaten? Really? The worst thing is not teaching them how to grow. OH no still births oh no... oh no  
BRING OUT YOUR DEAD...ding ding...BRING OUT YOUR DEAD...ding ding...BRING OUT YOUR DEAD.

fixed no more pile-o-babies.

Modifié par trigger2kill1, 22 février 2010 - 04:13 .

[Urazz]

Schneidend wrote...

Esker02 wrote...

And neither are the Geth.

I suppose you're technically correct, as the modern geth don't acknowledge that there are individual geth in the same way we do, and thus they have no "self." Still, though, they are an intelligence, no matter how you slice it. Whether or not they are "life" is what is debatable, I suppose.

Aaaanyway. All this talk about the genophage being wrong is hogwash. The krogan would overrun the entire known galaxy in mere centuries if they had their original population growth rates. They simply aren't responsible enough as a species to curb their growth on their own initiative yet. Up until they were hit with the genophage, everything about the krogan, culturally and genetically, was built around having lots of babies. Krogan warfare was once purely based on swarm tactics. It's only in recent centuries that they adopted the battlemaster system and began formulating proper strategy. There simply wasn't enough time to allow the krogan to adapt on their own, and so the genophage brought about the catalyst for change artificially.

Geth have a hive/grouop mentality so their way of thinking is not unusual when you learn that tidbit of informantion.

And yes, the Genophage and modification of the Genophage was the right thing to do.  Morally horrible, yes, but right thing to do.  If anything get mad at the Salarians for elevating the krogan to spacefarring standards without them getting the proper development.

[Blue Walrus]

Esker02 wrote...

Blue Walrus wrote...

How so?  They are capable of questioning their place in the universe, and you can't exactly wonder about the nature of your existence without being aware of that existence.  They are capable of independent thought (otherwise how could they have rebelled, as I seriously doubt that was programmed into them) and they exercise free will.

Simulating the actions you describe (like the Geth do, as they are machines) does not mean actually experiencing them.

Moreover, I don't even need to go there. You said the Geth are "self aware" - out of the terms you could throw out (sapience, for instance, would be easier) to prove the Geth's ... "life," that one in particular is problematic. Any individual Geth (that is, platform) only loosely has anything we might meaningfully call a self, and even demonstrates outwardly its own struggle to understand the concept.

It's a number of programs that collectively happen to replicate actions that real living beings engage in, that again only happen to occupy the same platform to give it the false presentation of a cohesive body. Legion's inability to make a meaningful decision regarding the outcome of the Heretics demonstrates this. There's no personality, character, or will there. It's a machine, nothing more.

But this is getting off topic, yes?

Hehe, as soon as I said "self-aware", I thought, "I had to pick the hardest term to defend, didn't I?"  So yeah, I suppose  you've got me on that one. 

It's hard to draw the line though, isn't it?  Between simulating and experiencing?  When exactly does an action or thought cross the line from extremely life-like simulation to being the genuine thing?  I suppose I can't say beyond the shadow of a doub that they aren't just elaborate semblances of sentience, but you can't exactly say they are.  Although free will doesn't seem like the sort of thing you can simulate.  You either have it or you don't.  You can be tricked into thinking you have it, but that's not really the same as "simulating" it.

I fail to see how indecision proves Legion has no personality or will.  I was pretty damn indecisisve there, too.  It's a hard choice.  And Legion isn't one entity, but many, and they couldn't come to an agreement.  If it's hard for me to make up my mind, it's got to hard to get over 1000 entities to agree.  Look at practically any legislative body, for goodness' sake.  Plus, I know a lot of humans who would much rather let someone else make the tough calls than bear the burden themselves.  Maybe it indicates that Legion lacks character, but it doesn't make him/them any less sentient than those people.  The outward struggle with self that you mentioned seemed to me to be less of a struggle to understand their situation and more of a struggle to explain it to Shepard.  It's a very alien concept for an organic.  My memory of that particular conversation is admittedly hazy, though.

But yes!  Extremely off topic.  Shall we argue over the genophage instead?  Call me an idealist, but I just can't accept it.  I get it.  I understand the rational behind it, but it just feels like there has to be a better way.   Not that I can think of one...

EDIT:  Wait, that's not technically what the thread's about either.  I should either start paying attention or get some sleep.  Someone mentioned that the lines aren't as bad with a Femshep?  I only play female, so I have nothing to compare it against.  Does Mark really come across that harsh?  Even as a Fem!Shep, I agree that a few lines are over the top, even before the loyalty quest.  The first time Mordin comes clean to you on the Normandy, you have to option to immediately jump down his throat about the whole thing.  (Or at least, I think you do.  I never picked the option that says "What you did was wrong!")  Way to promote honesty and open communication, Shepard.

Modifié par Blue Walrus, 22 février 2010 - 04:39 .

[CrookedAsylum]

trigger2kill1 wrote...

But hundreds of your children getting eaten? Really? The worst thing is not teaching them how to grow. OH no still births oh no... oh no  
BRING OUT YOUR DEAD...ding ding...BRING OUT YOUR DEAD...ding ding...BRING OUT YOUR DEAD.

fixed no more pile-o-babies.

Well, someone is acting like a hooker's used tampon.

Anyway.

The paragon choices for Mordin's loyalty mission were not nice, but I don't believe they were meant to be. 'Ethically right' and 'nice' can be two very different things. It turned out for the better, I believe. The genophage was intitally the right choice, but screwing over the Krogans birthrates again, especially considering that many more Krogan are dying than they are being born, was unecessry. And ethically wrong. Paragon Shep is pointing that out in the most blunt way possible, in the most raw setting possible, to really drive that home.

[trigger2kill1]

[quote]CrookedAsylum wrote...
[/quote]

Well, someone is acting like a hooker's used tampon.

Anyway.

The paragon choices for Mordin's loyalty mission were not nice, but I don't believe they were meant to be. 'Ethically right' and 'nice' can be two very different things. It turned out for the better, I believe. The genophage was intitally the right choice, but screwing over the Krogans birthrates again, especially considering that many more Krogan are dying than they are being born, was unecessry. And ethically wrong. Paragon Shep is pointing that out in the most blunt way possible, in the most raw setting possible, to really drive that home.

[/quote]
REALLY?  All that from a guy who picks the single biggest son-of-a-b!tch in ME universe as pic?
Indeed an ugly choice.
My point was that the council were the bad guys here and Mordin took it on the chin for everyone. They ordered the stuff done in the first place, he was only there cause he figured he wouldn't make the mistake of killing ALL Krogan.
Cause and only cause, He knows how bad they messed up the first time by elevating them in the first place.
For example
Imagine how bad the Black plague would have been if there had been no cats in middle age Europe. Instead of loosing just 1/3 of pop we would have lost 3/4+ pop. The ratss only know one thing reproduce period. If there were no checks and balances well 1,000's more rate per sq. mile  etc.  etc. etc....

Modifié par trigger2kill1, 22 février 2010 - 04:47 .

[CrookedAsylum]

trigger2kill1 wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

trigger2kill1 wrote...

But hundreds of your children getting eaten? Really? The worst thing is not teaching them how to grow. OH no still births oh no... oh no  
BRING OUT YOUR DEAD...ding ding...BRING OUT YOUR DEAD...ding ding...BRING OUT YOUR DEAD.

fixed no more pile-o-babies.

Well, someone is acting like a hooker's used tampon.

Anyway.

The paragon choices for Mordin's loyalty mission were not nice, but I don't believe they were meant to be. 'Ethically right' and 'nice' can be two very different things. It turned out for the better, I believe. The genophage was intitally the right choice, but screwing over the Krogans birthrates again, especially considering that many more Krogan are dying than they are being born, was unecessry. And ethically wrong. Paragon Shep is pointing that out in the most blunt way possible, in the most raw setting possible, to really drive that home.

REALLY?  All that from a guy who picks the single biggest son-of-a-b!tch in ME universe as pic?

Because what I use as an icon is representative of what I believe.
The real reason? I think his eyes are pretty chill.

Tampon.

[Creston918]

1) The Salarians wrongly uplifted the Krogan, because the Council needed cannon fodder to deal with the Rachni.

2) After millions upon millions of Krogran died in the war against the Rachni and finally stopped them, they became terribly inconvenient, and didn't want to listen to the Council's edict that they needed to stick on the few crappy planets they were given

3) The Salarians then decided to unleash virtual genocide on them, by destroying 999 out of every 1000 unborn children.

4) Then, when the Krogan finally started to overcome the original Genophage, Mordin, along with a few of his buddies, ran some tests, decided they didn't like the outcome, so they reinforced their original plague to make sure the Krogan stayed where they were no bother to anybody.

It pales in comparison to what the Reapers did, but any galactic government that dares to call itself justified after such actions is a giant joke. It never really became clear in the first Mass Effect (I think) that the Krogan were uplifted to deal with the Rachni. I thought they had always already been spacefaring by the time the Rachni came along. So when that was revealed (to me) in ME2, I just about flipped.

So yeah, I'd say that some harsh language is the LEAST that Mordin deserves. Also, Mordin isn't REALLY sorry, because if given the same option, he'd do exactly the same again. Why? Well, because his computer simulations said so! After all, this is the best for everyone involved! Well... The best for everyone except the Krogan, but they should just be quiet. After all, look at what the Council's done for them! The ungrateful...

I wanted to slap Mordin when he was still defending the Genophage after he saw the body of the sterile Krogan female.

"Hmmm, this race we wrongly uplifted in order to die by the millions to fight OUR stupid war for us is overpopulating their planets. Should we have a talk with them, explain to them that their current breeding rate is unsustainable and will eventually lead to friction, then war, then genocide?"

"Nah, let's just neuter all of them. Much easier that way, and it's better for them!"

There better be a plotline in ME3 to cure the damn Genophage. The council is no better than Hitler shipping the Jews off to Auschwitz.

[dreman9999]

Then don't pick them.

[trigger2kill1]

There is a plot line already involved Wrex is teaching them to be responcible in reproduction. you cure the thinking problem solved. Like 2 kids per family, what ever. Once that type of ordered thought is involved no problem. Without war, drastic competition for food, other resources they will destroy everything including trhemselves. The Krogan can talk but they are no better than the common rodent (characterised by two continuously growing incisors in the upper and lower jaws which must be kept short by gnawing). If they don't eat themselves to death they starve to death.

[anmiro]

If the Krogan can be responsible and managae their population on their own, than the Genophage is no longer necessary. But if they can't and they start expanding into other peoples territory again, its going to lead to another war. Mordins work with the Genophage was absolutely necessary.

[kanodin]

Creston918 wrote...

1) The Salarians wrongly uplifted the Krogan, because the Council needed cannon fodder to deal with the Rachni.

2) After millions upon millions of Krogran died in the war against the Rachni and finally stopped them, they became terribly inconvenient, and didn't want to listen to the Council's edict that they needed to stick on the few crappy planets they were given

3) The Salarians then decided to unleash virtual genocide on them, by destroying 999 out of every 1000 unborn children.

4) Then, when the Krogan finally started to overcome the original Genophage, Mordin, along with a few of his buddies, ran some tests, decided they didn't like the outcome, so they reinforced their original plague to make sure the Krogan stayed where they were no bother to anybody.

It pales in comparison to what the Reapers did, but any galactic government that dares to call itself justified after such actions is a giant joke. It never really became clear in the first Mass Effect (I think) that the Krogan were uplifted to deal with the Rachni. I thought they had always already been spacefaring by the time the Rachni came along. So when that was revealed (to me) in ME2, I just about flipped.

So yeah, I'd say that some harsh language is the LEAST that Mordin deserves. Also, Mordin isn't REALLY sorry, because if given the same option, he'd do exactly the same again. Why? Well, because his computer simulations said so! After all, this is the best for everyone involved! Well... The best for everyone except the Krogan, but they should just be quiet. After all, look at what the Council's done for them! The ungrateful...

I wanted to slap Mordin when he was still defending the Genophage after he saw the body of the sterile Krogan female.

"Hmmm, this race we wrongly uplifted in order to die by the millions to fight OUR stupid war for us is overpopulating their planets. Should we have a talk with them, explain to them that their current breeding rate is unsustainable and will eventually lead to friction, then war, then genocide?"

"Nah, let's just neuter all of them. Much easier that way, and it's better for them!"

There better be a plotline in ME3 to cure the damn Genophage. The council is no better than Hitler shipping the Jews off to Auschwitz.

You're just twisting what happened to suit your argument, and ignoring the crucial fact that they weren't going to new planets and colonizing them, they were brutally conquering existing colonies and taking their resources. I fail to see how defending your colonies makes you in the wrong.
 
And do you really think the other races didn't try to reason with the Krogan before the rebellions began, or is it more likely that they did and the Krogan refused to care about anything but their problems.

Further, Mordin states that the Genophage should only lower their population down to the level it was at before the uplift, it's intended to save the Krogans from themselves as well as everyone else from the Krogans, you can disagree with this decision but to act like the Krogan are innocent victims is just silly.

Finally, Godwin'd.

Modifié par kanodin, 22 février 2010 - 04:27 .

[Wolverfrog]

Maybe I'm just a Devil's advocate, but I thought the Genophage was wrong. I told Mordin he was wrong too. I also thought the Quarians were wrong for attacking the Geth just for being Sentient. Quib Quib had the right idea.

[Nizzemancer]

kanodin wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

Well if you save Wrex, and the Genophage then their is a really just cause for Krogan reform in ME3, which include a large and less hostile population of Krogan that could ally against the Reaper's.

Mordin states that he is years away from a cure, and he doesn't seem to be in a hurry "what about it? It's over there somewhere, need to focus on collector data", so unless the reapers arrive several years into the future (like a decade or two) there won't be a cure by then.

I don't recall him saying it would take years, just that it wasn't close to being done yet. Further a long time to finish it for Mordin a Salarian might be a lot less then we would consider a long time to be, especially when he's in his final decade of life as he puts it. If the time lapse is more then a year or two he could have completed it at that point.

Maybe If I hadn't played that part 30 seconds before making my post I'd be inclined to play the game again and take photos to post here just to say "in your face" but I wont...

[ExtremeOne]

The Genophage is completely wrong so yeah Shepard should be able to basically call him out for what he did and its the right tone to take.

[Nizzemancer]

anmiro wrote...

I don't see the Genophage as genocide. It was never intended to wipe out the Krogan. It was only meant to slow the reproduction to a sustainable level. This is not confirmed but I'm pretty sure the situation with the Krogan is based on the Cane Toads of Australia. If you don't know anything about it, those crazy Aussies tried get rid of these beetles(Rachni) that were decimating their sugar cane crops, by importing Cane Toads (which even look a lot like Krogan). They expected the frogs to eat the beatles, but the plan completely backfired and the Toads population exploded and are now wreaking havoc on their ecosystem.

Genocide isn't killing a ****load of people belonging to the same race, culture or society? Could have fooled me...