130 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtremeOne]

If Mass Effect 3 does not include a genophage cure then there is a serious problem because genophage is basically wrong and the Salarians need to pay for what they did

[Remaix]

Nizzemancer wrote...

anmiro wrote...

I don't see the Genophage as genocide. It was never intended to wipe out the Krogan. It was only meant to slow the reproduction to a sustainable level. This is not confirmed but I'm pretty sure the situation with the Krogan is based on the Cane Toads of Australia. If you don't know anything about it, those crazy Aussies tried get rid of these beetles(Rachni) that were decimating their sugar cane crops, by importing Cane Toads (which even look a lot like Krogan). They expected the frogs to eat the beatles, but the plan completely backfired and the Toads population exploded and are now wreaking havoc on their ecosystem.

Genocide isn't killing a ****load of people belonging to the same race, culture or society? Could have fooled me...

Ah... you'd rather they'd have skipped straight to the killing instead? Because that was the other option. WIping the krogan out.

Modifié par Remaix, 23 février 2010 - 08:11 .

[TudorWolf]

The Genophage itself was probably necessary, the Werloc clan's dialogue makes it abundantly clear that the Krogan would likely try and take over if they had the means.



However, the way it works (as has been mentioned, stillbirths appear to be commonplace despite Mordin's constant insistence that it only affects fertility) leaves most Krogan with a feeling of helplessness regarding their future survival. Look at the female who willingly gave her life for hope of a cure, and the fact that most Krogan don't care anymore.



Paragon Shep may come on a bit strong, but what he's saying makes sense all the same.

[Aisynia]

The paragon options on that quest reflect exactly how I feel. I use them even on renegade.

[Vaenier]

Why didnt they genophage the Rachni and avoid the whole Krogan situation?

After the Krogan Rebellions began, genophage was the right choice. Either that or complete extinction. Genophage is not genocide, it is simply population control. Krogan evolved on a planet with extreme enviromental hazards. When you take away the enviromental factor, you gota replace it.

Figure on their home-world, most kids would die before reaching their adulthood.

[siltsonata]

I still can't figure out how I feel about the entire mission (which is why it's my favorite.) My opinion changes every other day.



However, I did have a WTF moment when Shepard paragon!interrupts Mordin to keep him from killing his assistant by saying "You're not a murderer", when she had just called Mordin a murderer through a paragon dialogue option not three minutes earlier.

[Remaix]

siltsonata wrote...

I still can't figure out how I feel about the entire mission (which is why it's my favorite.) My opinion changes every other day.

However, I did have a WTF moment when Shepard paragon!interrupts Mordin to keep him from killing his assistant by saying "You're not a murderer", when she had just called Mordin a murderer through a paragon dialogue option not three minutes earlier.

It's my opinion that Shepard is very much a schizophrenic. But maybe that's just because I usually take renegade interrupts after behaving very civil beforehand...

[ExtremeOne]

TudorWolf wrote...

The Genophage itself was probably necessary, the Werloc clan's dialogue makes it abundantly clear that the Krogan would likely try and take over if they had the means.

However, the way it works (as has been mentioned, stillbirths appear to be commonplace despite Mordin's constant insistence that it only affects fertility) leaves most Krogan with a feeling of helplessness regarding their future survival. Look at the female who willingly gave her life for hope of a cure, and the fact that most Krogan don't care anymore.

Paragon Shep may come on a bit strong, but what he's saying makes sense all the same.

  


The Genophage was not needed the Salarians saw the krogans as a threat and instead of talking with them they just decided to murder them with the genophage and then do it again after the krogans started to finding ways to get better from it.  

[Remaix]

ExtremeOne wrote...

TudorWolf wrote...

The Genophage itself was probably necessary, the Werloc clan's dialogue makes it abundantly clear that the Krogan would likely try and take over if they had the means.

However, the way it works (as has been mentioned, stillbirths appear to be commonplace despite Mordin's constant insistence that it only affects fertility) leaves most Krogan with a feeling of helplessness regarding their future survival. Look at the female who willingly gave her life for hope of a cure, and the fact that most Krogan don't care anymore.

Paragon Shep may come on a bit strong, but what he's saying makes sense all the same.

  


The Genophage was not needed the Salarians saw the krogans as a threat and instead of talking with them they just decided to murder them with the genophage and then do it again after the krogans started to finding ways to get better from it.  

You can argue about the second one, but the first one was necessary. They were at war. The krogan weren't about to surrender. The only other options they had were: 1. keep fighting the war and hope for the best, or 2. outright destroy the krogan race. The genophage, though not 'right', was definitely the lesser evil.

[Vaenier]

Does the genophage cause 99.9% stillbirths, or does it prevent 99.9% of pregnancies from occurring? I keep getting mixed answers

[aeetos21]

I think Mordin's theme was the best squadmate theme in all of ME2. His recruitment and then his loyalty mission. Very well written story for him and very well digital acting/voice acting. Hats off to BW.

[ExtremeOne]

Remaix wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

TudorWolf wrote...

The Genophage itself was probably necessary, the Werloc clan's dialogue makes it abundantly clear that the Krogan would likely try and take over if they had the means.

However, the way it works (as has been mentioned, stillbirths appear to be commonplace despite Mordin's constant insistence that it only affects fertility) leaves most Krogan with a feeling of helplessness regarding their future survival. Look at the female who willingly gave her life for hope of a cure, and the fact that most Krogan don't care anymore.

Paragon Shep may come on a bit strong, but what he's saying makes sense all the same.

  


The Genophage was not needed the Salarians saw the krogans as a threat and instead of talking with them they just decided to murder them with the genophage and then do it again after the krogans started to finding ways to get better from it.  

You can argue about the second one, but the first one was necessary. They were at war. The krogan weren't about to surrender. The only other options they had were: 1. keep fighting the war and hope for the best, or 2. outright destroy the krogan race. The genophage, though not 'right', was definitely the lesser evil.

 


I totally disagree with you but thats ok maybe in Mass Effect 3 the krogans will unleash hell on the Salarians and  exterminate them. 

[siltsonata]

Vaenier wrote...

Does the genophage cause 99.9% stillbirths, or does it prevent 99.9% of pregnancies from occurring? I keep getting mixed answers

Mordin says it adjusts fertility, which implies preventing pregnancies, however we have at least two separate krogan who state that tons die in stillbirths.

I dont think it's 99.9% stillbirths though, because in the first game Wrex says "Thousands/millions die in stillbirths.  Most don't make it that far." (can't remember the number he used.  I think thousands is probably more likely.)  Which means that the big effect is on preventing pregnancies, but the secondary effect is the dramatic number of stillbirths.

[Faceman2006]

Of all the missions I disliked this one the most for what I consider to be very poor dialogue options for Shepard.

The paragon choices just make him sound like a sanctimonious, ignorant and arrogant ass if you ask me.

Irrespective of what you think of the genophage, Paragon choices are meant to represent playing the good guy right? So Shepard should have said something along the lines of 'Hey Mordin, this whole thing is a tradgedy that you were on the wrong side of, but let's try and work through this, and I'm on your side' - or something to that effect.

Instead the options are along the lines of 'Hey Mordin, OMG you're worse than Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot put together, I hate you!' during which time Mordin presents his thoughts in a very rational and logical manner through which he expresses regret - considering it's a loyalty mission I would have preferred it if at the end of the mission if only having chosen Paragon options, Mordin would have said 'You know what Shepard, you're an idiot. I'm leaving'.

No other mission in the game left me with a greater desire to smack Paragon Shepard in the face than that one did.

[Vaenier]

ExtremeOne wrote...

I totally disagree with you but thats ok maybe in Mass Effect 3 the krogans will unleash hell on the Salarians and  exterminate them. 

Your name is very fitting of your views.

That would only prove that the genophage was neccessary. Maybe the salarians would just kill all of them instead of swapping in genetic hazards from enviromental hazards then.

[BurstAngel75]

Am I the only one who prefer the paragon choices?
The whole story was about the questioning the moral ramification of playing GOD.
Mordin saw them only as a statistic to be modified not as a people with the right to make their own choices. The whole point of Mordin's Loyalty quest was to show him that his "satistics/scenerios/numbers" have a face and soul of their own.
And to answer, the question about the student experimenting on live subjects - Mordin would never use live subjects in his experiments, that was his only saving grace from being like Cerberus as far as I'm concern. I love Mordin, but what his people has done to the Krogan is inexcusable. Some say that the genophage was nessessary - as far as I'm concern it was a cope out.

Sometimes I wonder about our society's moral ambiguity. I only wish I could elaborate but I don't want this thread to be locked because I stepped on my soapbox.
I'm going back to playing the game. I only wanted to defend the paragon choices, I think I only use one neutral to get my point across.

Modifié par BurstAngel75, 23 février 2010 - 09:29 .

[BurstAngel75]

Okay, I'm back and I want to show you that there is no "greater good" in using the genophage.

China has been forcing their one child plan for decades all in the name of population control. They have the highest suicide rate among women in the world. They have routinely sterilized young women who already had a child and even forced women to end their pregancy by arresting them! Families had to hide their wives, sisters, daughters from the officails just so they can keep their child. If a second child is born, they have to pay an expensive fee to register him or else he is not considered a citizen and therefore no benefits.

All this in the name of population contol. Has it work? No, it actually failed, the chinese population, continues to increase, except now their are so few girls being born that young men have to find wives outside of the country. As far as I'm concern there is no justification in using the genophage. It has destroyed the Krogan, rather than death they now live in despair burying their children, grasping at straws to what little pride and identity they have left. How can it be justified?

Alot of the stories in Mass Effect have alot of credence to what is going on in today's society and it's chilling to see us rationalize our morals away.

[kanodin]

BurstAngel75 wrote...

Okay, I'm back and I want to show you that there is no "greater good" in using the genophage.
China has been forcing their one child plan for decades all in the name of population control. They have the highest suicide rate among women in the world. They have routinely sterilized young women who already had a child and even forced women to end their pregancy by arresting them! Families had to hide their wives, sisters, daughters from the officails just so they can keep their child. If a second child is born, they have to pay an expensive fee to register him or else he is not considered a citizen and therefore no benefits.
All this in the name of population contol. Has it work? No, it actually failed, the chinese population, continues to increase, except now their are so few girls being born that young men have to find wives outside of the country. As far as I'm concern there is no justification in using the genophage. It has destroyed the Krogan, rather than death they now live in despair burying their children, grasping at straws to what little pride and identity they have left. How can it be justified?
Alot of the stories in Mass Effect have alot of credence to what is going on in today's society and it's chilling to see us rationalize our morals away.

An unfair comparision as ways around the rule exist hence it fails to stop population growth, the genophage did not have such a problem. Further the 1 child rule is voluntary in that the government chose to do it, it wasn't forced on them to keep them from conquering the world.   

Interesting fact, according to Tali in ME1 the Quarians also have a 1 child rule and it seems to serve them just fine. The real problem with the Chinese system is that their culture places a higher value on boys then girls, not that they have such a rule.


 

[cdzander]

You all know this is a video game, right? People getting all worked up about the genophage. I'm going to let you in on a little secret.



Krogan don't actually exist. You don't need to feel bad for them or start frothing at the mouth over their supposed genocide.

[Estelindis]

TheLostGenius wrote...

Their is a hypocritical analogy in the ME universe. The Genophage being condoned, a form very near to genocide...while the Reaper's want to commit genocide against all species is wrong. Much like the Quarians want to commit genocide to the Geth yet most would sympathize with them. So in ME, sometimes Genocide is right, and sometimes Genocide is wrong? Always thought they played with that idea in ani ntieresting way.

Well said.

What I really appreciate about Mordin's mission is the ambiguity.  In spite of the fact that (IMO) the genophage is unutterably horrific, some of his arguments made sense (again, IMO).  I like the fact that he presents a compelling case and you still have the option to disagree with him if you want.  I agree that some of the paragon options sounded a bit OTT, but I'm still glad they exist (as opposed to the situation in ME1, where you never really got the chance to voice your opposition to the genophage).

[PARAGON87]

This is one of the few in-game moments where BioWare selects the politically-correct option as the paragon option, and the option everyone-knows-is-right-but-is-too-ashamed-to-admit-it as the renegade option.

[ExtremeOne]

Vaenier wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

I totally disagree with you but thats ok maybe in Mass Effect 3 the krogans will unleash hell on the Salarians and  exterminate them. 

Your name is very fitting of your views.

That would only prove that the genophage was neccessary. Maybe the salarians would just kill all of them instead of swapping in genetic hazards from enviromental hazards then.

 


Oh so your saying the Krogans should just deal with this and not have any desire to get even with the Salarians at all. they have every right in the world to get even. 

[Faceman2006]

PARAGON87 wrote...

This is one of the few in-game moments where BioWare selects the politically-correct option as the paragon option, and the option everyone-knows-is-right-but-is-too-ashamed-to-admit-it as the renegade option.

Haha too true.

Look at this way - The Krogan were, and essentially still are a primitive war like species who enjoy conquest - they've got no qualms about smacking another species around for their own gain - they were a threat to the galaxy, the same way the Reapers are now.

In stages:

1) Were the Salarians wrong to uplift the Krogans when they did? Undoubtedly so, but it was going to happen eventually to one species or another - it's just unfortunate the species in question was Krogan, but to the Salarians, they couldn't have known the future ramifications of this, and they were desperate to find a species capable of defeating the Rachni Queens.

2) Were the Salarians wrong to introduce the genophage? This is less clear cut - ultimately after the Rachni were defeated, the Krogan started reproducing too quickly, and instead of colonising their own worlds with the help of Salarian technology, they simply started taking nearer worlds from other species. They were essentially Rachni Mk.2, but people want to get all soppy because they speak english? In part of Mordin's quest (or maybe elsewhere in the game) it's basically stated that the genophage hasn't crippled the Krogan - it's reduced their reproduction to the levels of that of other species - where Krogan disagree with this statement is because by all accounts they are essentially big humaniod frogs - they reproduce in the thousands as frog spawn do - it's no surprise they would then complain if reproduction is limited to human levels.

And the clan warfare you see on Tuchanka was present well before the Salarians ever interfered - in effect the Genophage was correct, because it's simply a case of saying - 'yes we were wrong to uplift them in the first place, but we can't reverse that decision now, so now we either have to wipe them out entirely, or simply control their numbers'.

3) But this is the main point - Mordin wasn't involved in any of that, and he explicitly states that in hindsight if he had been around at the time he'd have tried to make the Salarians do things differently. Mordin's involvement was in altering the genophage so that it continues to have effect within our hypothetical 'present day' Mass Effect Universe - was that the right thing to do? Well most Krogan in the game are still represented as primitive tribal creatures hell bent on fighting anything and everything, and nor are they shy about admitting that if they had the numbers they used to, they'd happily try and conquer everyone again. So IMO altering the genophage was still the right thing to do.

Throughout the mission, as mentioned by others, Mordin also expresses disgust at the way the test subjects have been treated - he's not one to cut people up - he prefers individual cell research through a microscope, that sort of thing.

And yet...

Paragon Shepard still rags all over him as if Mordin were the new Hitler. It's just dumb.

[Nizzemancer]

Remaix wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

anmiro wrote...

I don't see the Genophage as genocide. It was never intended to wipe out the Krogan. It was only meant to slow the reproduction to a sustainable level. This is not confirmed but I'm pretty sure the situation with the Krogan is based on the Cane Toads of Australia. If you don't know anything about it, those crazy Aussies tried get rid of these beetles(Rachni) that were decimating their sugar cane crops, by importing Cane Toads (which even look a lot like Krogan). They expected the frogs to eat the beatles, but the plan completely backfired and the Toads population exploded and are now wreaking havoc on their ecosystem.

Genocide isn't killing a ****load of people belonging to the same race, culture or society? Could have fooled me...

Ah... you'd rather they'd have skipped straight to the killing instead? Because that was the other option. WIping the krogan out.

Where did you read that? All I said was that you're wrong and that genocide is genocide no matter the reason or method for it... As necessary as the genophage was you can't deny that it is genocide.

[Nizzemancer]

Vaenier wrote...

Why didnt they genophage the Rachni and avoid the whole Krogan situation?
After the Krogan Rebellions began, genophage was the right choice. Either that or complete extinction. Genophage is not genocide, it is simply population control. Krogan evolved on a planet with extreme enviromental hazards. When you take away the enviromental factor, you gota replace it.
Figure on their home-world, most kids would die before reaching their adulthood.

*goes out, shoot full auto into morning traffic and blows up 13 skyscrapers* DON'T WORRY, It's not mass murder, it's just population control!

The krogan are sentient beeings, not cockroaches.