130 réponses à ce sujet

[alickar]

if they dont cure the genophage then i will be sad

[aaniadyen]

Nizzemancer wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Why didnt they genophage the Rachni and avoid the whole Krogan situation?
After the Krogan Rebellions began, genophage was the right choice. Either that or complete extinction. Genophage is not genocide, it is simply population control. Krogan evolved on a planet with extreme enviromental hazards. When you take away the enviromental factor, you gota replace it.
Figure on their home-world, most kids would die before reaching their adulthood.

*goes out, shoot full auto into morning traffic and blows up 13 skyscrapers* DON'T WORRY, It's not mass murder, it's just population control!

The krogan are sentient beeings, not cockroaches.

*shrugs* That is exactly what they'd do if there was no genophage, so...I fail to see your point. It was between preventing births, and killing fully grown adults. Are you saying you'd rather kill people then have them use condoms?

[Nizzemancer]

aaniadyen wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Why didnt they genophage the Rachni and avoid the whole Krogan situation?
After the Krogan Rebellions began, genophage was the right choice. Either that or complete extinction. Genophage is not genocide, it is simply population control. Krogan evolved on a planet with extreme enviromental hazards. When you take away the enviromental factor, you gota replace it.
Figure on their home-world, most kids would die before reaching their adulthood.

*goes out, shoot full auto into morning traffic and blows up 13 skyscrapers* DON'T WORRY, It's not mass murder, it's just population control!

The krogan are sentient beeings, not cockroaches.

*shrugs* That is exactly what they'd do if there was no genophage, so...I fail to see your point. It was between preventing births, and killing fully grown adults. Are you saying you'd rather kill people then have them use condoms?

Read the bold and maybe you'll understand...
Adolf Hitler was just doing population control, Slobodan Milosevic was just doing population control, Josef Stalin was just doing population control, Augusto Pinochet was just doing population control, Hiroshima and Nagasaki was just population control.

If this game was portraying Asians as Krogan for example people wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the genophage as "population control", I understand that it had to be done for the good of civilized space, but that's no reason to belittle it or trying to act like it's a footnote.

Modifié par Nizzemancer, 25 février 2010 - 05:24 .

[Christmas Ape]

Read the bold and maybe you'll understand...
Adolf Hitler was just doing population control, Slobodan Milosevic was just doing population control, Josef Stalin was just doing population control, Augusto Pinochet was just doing population control, Hiroshima and Nagasaki was just population control.

If this game was portraying Asians as Krogan for example people wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the genophage as "population control", I understand that it had to be done for the good of civilized space, but that's no reason to belittle it or trying to act like it's a footnote.

So much nested quoting I can't recall the user name that posted this, but your signature sentence about appearing bright is remarkably apt.

You seem to be having a fundamental failure to follow the fact the krogan are not humans. They don't think like us, they don't live like us, they share none of the biologically initiated cultural norms we do. The krogan are an aggressive and predatory species, disinterested in intellectual or philosophical pursuits, prone to violence and dominance struggles. Bear in mind their Codex entry, at least in ME2, mentions a series of nuclear wars before the salarians uplifted them. Once wasn't enough for the krogan - or at least, the damage to the planet didn't mean as much as the damage to their enemies. As an intelligent species individuals are capable of tempering these desires in order to pursue other desires, but fundamentally the krogan aren't human and you can't approach the problem as if they were. Can they perform calculus? If taught, probably. But krogan conflict resolution ends in corpses. Every time.

The genophage was the only way the salarians could close the Pandora's Box they opened by uplifting them. They were both terrible decisions that saved galactic civilization.

[TobiTobsen]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Read the bold and maybe you'll understand...
Adolf Hitler was just doing population control, Slobodan Milosevic was just doing population control, Josef Stalin was just doing population control, Augusto Pinochet was just doing population control, Hiroshima and Nagasaki was just population control.

If this game was portraying Asians as Krogan for example people wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the genophage as "population control", I understand that it had to be done for the good of civilized space, but that's no reason to belittle it or trying to act like it's a footnote.

So much nested quoting I can't recall the user name that posted this, but your signature sentence about appearing bright is remarkably apt.

You seem to be having a fundamental failure to follow the fact the krogan are not humans. They don't think like us, they don't live like us, they share none of the biologically initiated cultural norms we do. The krogan are an aggressive and predatory species, disinterested in intellectual or philosophical pursuits, prone to violence and dominance struggles. Bear in mind their Codex entry, at least in ME2, mentions a series of nuclear wars before the salarians uplifted them. Once wasn't enough for the krogan - or at least, the damage to the planet didn't mean as much as the damage to their enemies. As an intelligent species individuals are capable of tempering these desires in order to pursue other desires, but fundamentally the krogan aren't human and you can't approach the problem as if they were. Can they perform calculus? If taught, probably. But krogan conflict resolution ends in corpses. Every time.

The genophage was the only way the salarians could close the Pandora's Box they opened by uplifting them. They were both terrible decisions that saved galactic civilization.

^ this

But they should have found another way than the whole stillbirth thing.
Mordin is always talking about how it just "fixed" the fertility but Wrex and the Krogan in the Weyrloc hospital both tell you about the enormous number off stillbirths. Seeing one dead kid after another sure won't help to fix the emotionally instable state the Krogans are in.
If it would just fix the fertility, like Mordin tells us, I wouldn't have so many qualms about it.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 27 mai 2010 - 01:45 .

[scorptatious]

I call it tough love.

[Markinator_123]

The paragon respones on this mission are ignorant, self-righteous, and idiotic.In my opinion the genophage was the right thing to do.

[nhsk]

The stillbirth thing wasn't meant to be, it's evolved into stillbirths. The original genophage was merely unfertilizing the krogan, kinda like forced.. ehh whats the word, sterilization.

On the original question, I'm paragon in most of my games - And yes, I do agree with the genophage as the lesser of two evils and I never pick on mordin for that, choosing neutral ground on that.



On the bright side, it forces Krogan to evolve and adapt new ways and in time they will overcome the genophage by themselves. Look at Wrexs work, he will drag the other clans into glory whether they like it or not.

[Volhater13]

I am rather surprised at the number of people who take the utilitarian philosophical view on the genophage here. I personally can't accept that as an acceptable view on this one. There is something inherently wrong about the genophage, regardless of the situation or potential consequences had it not been deployed.

[Dustbeard]

Mordin makes it clear the Salarians considered their options vigorously before they opted for the genophage, which was the best solution out of a lot of bad ones. The Krogan were too primitive to reasonably use advanced technology resposibily when they were uplifted, and Salarian simulations all showed that any lesser response would lead to repeating cycles of war. It would have been easier to just annihilate their entire species, so why didn't they?

I've come to the conclusion that the genophage was a way of showing respect for the Krogan species - they ended the Rachni Wars, which were worse than the Krogan Rebellions, ensuring the survival of the council races. The Krogan could have been exterminated with bio weapons when they started their war, but the Salarians chose instead to make an incredibly complex alternative weapon that would keep them down but stable enough to survive. It's a horrible thing to have to do, but it's better than the alternatives.

Humanity has a dim view of bio weapons from its own history, and would understandably abhor their use regardless of the motivation, but they weren't there for either of those wars. If you had a weapon that would end an awful, bloody, relentless war quickly and without having to annihilate your enemy utterly, wouldn't you use it?

[Count Viceroy]

Markinator_123 wrote...

The paragon respones on this mission are ignorant, self-righteous, and idiotic.

They always are.

[CroGamer002]

Why on New Year got plenty of necro threads revivals?

[In Exile]

siltsonata wrote...

I dont think it's 99.9% stillbirths though, because in the first game Wrex says "Thousands/millions die in stillbirths.  Most don't make it that far." (can't remember the number he used.  I think thousands is probably more likely.)  Which means that the big effect is on preventing pregnancies, but the secondary effect is the dramatic number of stillbirths.

A fertile female is a krogan asset, which makes sterility plage seem reasonable. It seems that the genophage sterilizes most krogan women, and then makes what fertile women are left have very hard pregnancies that often lead to stillbirth.

Though it may be that fertile refers to a krogan female who isn't affected by the stllbirth. The issue with that is that it would mean at least some krogan females can give birth to 100s of young, which is unlikely given the dialogue.

[azerSheppard]

Read the bold and maybe you'll understand...
Adolf Hitler was just doing population control, Slobodan Milosevic was just doing population control, Josef Stalin was just doing population control, Augusto Pinochet was just doing population control, Hiroshima and Nagasaki was just population control.

If this game was portraying Asians as Krogan for example people wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the genophage as "population control", I understand that it had to be done for the good of civilized space, but that's no reason to belittle it or trying to act like it's a footnote.

You seem to mistake GENOCIDE with GENOPHAGE.

Genophage simply adjust fertility rates, it, as stated before, decreases the rate of fetility, it doesn't gas, shoot or burn Krogans, it makes them less fertile. In order to adjust their birthrate.

Genophage is not a nuclear weapen. There shouldn't even be a moral question here. All Mordin did was prevent extinction, without killing even a single Krogan. How would you have solved this issue?

This was pure population control. It's sad that the Krogan could not evolve past their aggression, but really, they where going the Yagh way as far as i can tell.

The fact that the Krogans are going extinc is due to their "suicidal" nature. Wrex seems to be working on that problem tho. As far as i can tell, all true Krogan, like Okeer, should cary the genophage with pride.
"Gone is the horde", "We well stand uppon the corpses of thousands unworthy, that is the Krogan way". These seem to fit in with the idealogy of the Urdnot Shaman.

Ultimately the only reason the Krogan still exist is thanks to the genophage.

Modifié par azerSheppard, 02 janvier 2011 - 12:26 .

[Slayer299]

Volhater13 wrote...

I am rather surprised at the number of people who take the utilitarian philosophical view on the genophage here. I personally can't accept that as an acceptable view on this one. There is something inherently wrong about the genophage, regardless of the situation or potential consequences had it not been deployed.

Then the alternative to the genophage would be EXTINCTION, which would have been the only choice left for the CC to deal with the Krogan threat to be ended once and for all. I think that the genophage was a much better option considering the alternative.
Using the genophage was not a utilitarian one, it had nothing to do with the usefulness of the 'phage or the Krogan. It was to end a war that had caused countless deaths thus far on both sides. The Krogan were about as ready for uplifting as a toaster, which is to say not.

[jamie94]

the krogan birth rate now on average is 1/1000 successful pregnancies thats way to low man. one in a thousand. way to low.

[Vaenier]

jamie94 wrote...

the krogan birth rate now on average is 1/1000 successful pregnancies thats way to low man. one in a thousand. way to low.

If they used to reproduce 1000 times faster than everyone else, it seems right on track.

[ParaB]

I just played through that mission (my 2nd playthrough) and had exactly the same impression as the topic starter. Shepard's comments to Mordin's explanations came across as rather naive and stupid. Didn't fit at all IMO.



Mordin reworked the Genophage so that the Krogan population would be stable. Considering the alternatives, one really has a hard time for taking the moral high ground here.

[Count Viceroy]

jamie94 wrote...

the krogan birth rate now on average is 1/1000 successful pregnancies thats way to low man. one in a thousand. way to low.

Everything is relative.

[azerSheppard]

Count Viceroy wrote...

jamie94 wrote...

the krogan birth rate now on average is 1/1000 successful pregnancies thats way to low man. one in a thousand. way to low.

Everything is relative.

True, seeing as how they had the numbers to challenge the council. Also the rebellion was proof of the endless Krogan agression. It had to be stopped, atleast the Salarians knew what they where doing, they could have decreased the fertelity to next to nothing. we wouldn't have had a Wrex:o

[CheeseEnchilada]

I actually finished this mission last night, and I chose mostly neutral answers. It reminds me when someone discusses war in real life--there's tension on both sides, and some very strong opinions. The paragon options are a little short-sighted and hostile, yes, but I think it's pretty realistic. The genophage is something that provokes some really strong responses, and while I don't necessarily agree with paragon Shepard's arguments, I can see someone responding like that easily.

[Eradyn]

This was one mission where I largely strayed from paragon dialogue options (I actually play as a Paragade) and stuck to neutral or renegade. First time I played it I went the paragon path...then promptly facepalmed after hearing the actual dialogue from Shepard and restarted from my last save.

[adam_grif]

Yea but its paragon because what Mordin was doing was wrong.

Oh boy.