118 réponses à ce sujet

[Moleculor]

I see a bunch of people claiming that the Reapers can just fly here. So I went, rewatched the end scene where the Reapers' location was shown.

It shows the entire width of the galaxy. (Maybe not entire, but easily 90-95%, if not 100%.)

The galaxy is 100,000 light years across.

If we assume the camera field of view is 90 degrees, then some quick 'n dirty math has me coming up with a value that says the Reapers are currently positioned some 50,000 lightyears from our galaxy. *

So, travelling under conventional drives, even if they could INSTANTLY hit 1/2 of light speed (and instantly stop when they wanted to), they'll reach the EDGE of our galaxy in 100,000 years. That's not even reaching a mass relay (that'll be a few more hundred years, easily). And that's assuming that they don't have to accelerate or decelerate using automagic BAMF technology, instead of actual propulsion.

If they were to somehow engage their FTL drives in a suicide run at the galaxy...

Lets see, the only real recorded speed I can find in a VERY quick search of the ME wiki is 200 times the speed of light. A flight at that speed would still take 250 years of constant flight, and element zero cores build up a charge the longer you fly in FTL. Once the charge reaches a certain point, it discharges into the entire ship, frying -everything-, both inorganic and organic, and the Reapers are a mix of both. The only way to discharge is to discharge it into something else, like a planet's magnetic field. None of those on the 250 year journey from the middle of nowhere back to the galaxy.

So unless the Reapers have some sort of magical technology that's better than eezocore FTL (that they could've and would've used before now), they're not flying back to our galaxy, at least not at any time in Shepard's lifetime. And if they DO have some magical technology that's better than eezocore FTL, they would have used that instead of waiting the 1,500 years for Nazara to fix the Citadel, and they would have been able to do the same standard 'attack the Citadel first' routine by simply warping in on top of the Citadel instead of any old edge of the galaxy, as no one would see them coming at FTL speeds.

*Curious side-note: If the last Reaping took place 50k years ago, and they're currently positioned 50k light years out... that means a camera pointed where they're located would possibly catch sight of whatever relay they used to re-enter our galaxy, and them in the process of doing it, and that's if the camera were at the 'correct' edge of the galaxy. Anywhere else, and you'd see them BEFORE they Reaped the Protheans.

Modifié par Moleculor, 21 février 2010 - 11:47 .

[The Angry One]

You assume that their ship FTL drives aren't any more efficient than ours, when they're likely to be vastly better.

I can see the Reapers expending their energy on cranking up their conventional FTL to a 1-2 year trip. It's obviously a huge risk or they'd just do that all the time, but they just might be capable of it.

[AntiChri5]

You are assuming they use the same propulsion systems as us and their FTL drives work the same.

Bioware could make up any old bull**** about how much more advanced they are.

EDIT: @ the Angry One: I guess great minds think alike! 

Modifié par AntiChri5, 21 février 2010 - 11:45 .

[padaE]

I don't know how faster than light you can travel in ME universe without a Mass Relay... but the reapers would be able to travel even faster.

[Moleculor]

If they had another form of propulsion, they would have used that instead of waiting 1500 years for Nazara to fix the Citadel. They would even still be able to attack the Citadel first... just approach from the top, and since they'd be traveling at FTL speeds, no one would see them coming.

[DarkNova50]

Dude...they just brought Shepard back from the dead.



Chances are they didn't put any thought into distance and perspective when making that scene, and just thought "Ooh, daunting" (which it is) and the Reapers will be there in ME3.



To quote Homer Simpson:



"Facts are meaningless. They can be used to prove anything."

[The Angry One]

Moleculor wrote...

If they had another form of propulsion, they would have used that instead of waiting 1500 years for Nazara to fix the Citadel. They would even still be able to attack the Citadel first... just approach from the top, and since they'd be traveling at FTL speeds, no one would see them coming.

Like I said, it's a huge risk. The Reapers are used to culling the galaxy in an orderly manner with the Citadel and relays under their control.
They can wait thousands of years, knowing that Nazara is working on it.
The thing is, after ME2, they have NOTHING. Sovereign is gone, and their only chance to get a new Reaper agent in the galaxy has just been flushed down the toilet so now they have no choice. Doesn't matter how long they wait, they either take the long way now or sit quietly and die.

[Doug84]

Moleculor wrote...

If they had another form of propulsion, they would have used that instead of waiting 1500 years for Nazara to fix the Citadel. They would even still be able to attack the Citadel first... just approach from the top, and since they'd be traveling at FTL speeds, no one would see them coming.

True, true. So it seems unlikely that the Reapers are flying into the Galaxy - they where definitely powering up at the end of ME 3, but how they plan to return to the Galaxy is as yet uncertain - probably that dark energy theory people are talking about.

[Ulicus]

I'm stupid. Nevermind. OP already mentioned it. (That it's stupid for the Reapers to hang about for 1,500 years waiting for Sovereign to activate the relay if they could just fly into the Milky Way)

Modifié par Ulicus, 21 février 2010 - 11:51 .

[Moleculor]

The Angry One wrote...

Moleculor wrote...

If they had another form of propulsion, they would have used that instead of waiting 1500 years for Nazara to fix the Citadel. They would even still be able to attack the Citadel first... just approach from the top, and since they'd be traveling at FTL speeds, no one would see them coming.

Like I said, it's a huge risk.

No it's not.

FTL means no one sees you coming. They FTL right in on top of the Citadel, blow every defense away with their uber-shields and particle beams. Same attack plan, slightly different route, same result. It'd be just like them warping in through the Citadel, except they'd come from the side instead. (Or top, as the case may be.)

If they could do that, they would have by now.

Modifié par Moleculor, 21 février 2010 - 11:51 .

[Regono]

You have to remember Molecular in space there is no real up down or sides.

[rabbitchannel]

Moleculor wrote...

If they had another form of propulsion, they would have used that instead of waiting 1500 years for Nazara to fix the Citadel. They would even still be able to attack the Citadel first... just approach from the top, and since they'd be traveling at FTL speeds, no one would see them coming.

Actually, I don't recall it being mentioned that the Citadel is needed for the Reapers to arrive. What was mentioned that due to it's location and status as the central hub of the galactic community and the presence of their leaders, as surprise attack would ensure a swift and devastating victory. Their leaders would be dead before they know it, along with a huge portion of their fleets and with minimal casualties to the Reapers. It is more a tactical thing, I think. Additionally, it was mentioned that the signal from the Citadel wakes the Reapers up from dark space. Until then they are sleeping. So aside from it being a tactical thing, it is also the signal for the fleet to wake up and send in the cavalry. Of course, now we see that the fleet has woken up. I assume this means that the signal is not the only method of waking the fleet up, but more of the attack signal. Sovereign must have sent a message to the fleet before he got destroyed. Him or the Collectors. 

[The Angry One]

Moleculor wrote...

No it's not.

FTL means no one sees you coming. They FTL right in on top of the Citadel, blow every defense away with their uber-shields and particle beams. Same attack plan, slightly different route, same result. It'd be just like them warping in through the Citadel, except they'd come from the side instead. (Or top, as the case may be.)

If they could do that, they would have by now.

It's a huge risk for the Reapers because instead of making one jump to the Citadel to a galaxy prepared for culling, they have to expend their energy in using FTL to get here, then fight against a more prepared galaxy.

[sergio71785]

Yeah I don't think they're flying towards the Galaxy. I'm sure the surprise attack via the Citadel is nice and all, but I can't imagine it being vital to them at all. Each Reaper is incredibly powerful, and there are thousands of them.

[adam_grif]

200 times the speed of light? Try again.



At the given rate of 12 ly/day for a "typical FTL drive", we get 4383 times the speed of light. The Normandy being an advanced frigate with a large drive core can go faster, and the reapers having the largest core in the known universe would be able to go faster still.



12 ly/day gives us ~11 years for a return trip. I mentioned the drive core charge problem in previous threads, but everybody just shuts their eyes and shouts THEY HAVE ADVANCED TECH SO ITS NOT A PROBLEM. It's the all time champion non-argument used around these parts.

[RandomGuy928]

A major component to the Reaper's "Plan A" (using the Citadel as a Relay to dark space) is instantly taking out the heart of galactic society. Within the first hour or so of the invasion they would probably have decapitated the galactic government, downloaded every piece of knowledge about galactic society, dispatched a large portion of the galaxy's fleet in a surprise attack, and obtained a foothold in the heart of the galaxy.



While they are most likely capable of flying to the Galaxy using FTL within a few years, it is much more practical for them to use Plan A.

[NKKKK]

Besides they're probably using a black hole or something

[Schneidend]

Moleculor wrote...

If they could do that, they would have by now.

Except FTL is detectable. The Normandy can't be in stealth mode while it is making relay jumps or FTL jumps, or coming out of said jumps. If the reapers somehow could make a series of FTL jumps and get to Citadel space in a reasonable amount of time, it would be noticed before they made it to the Citadel itself. The reapers would also likely be incredibly taxed for power and not quite as omnipotent as they normally are.

My theory is that the reapers will pool the power of their mass effect cores together to make a series of FTL jumps into the Milky Way. These wouldn't be as efficienct or as nigh-instantaneous as relay jumps, but the reapers could potentially get to the edges of Citadel space, or at least to a distant relay that would take them to Citadel space, in the span of a year or more. How many years would depend on how close to the power of a relay over a thousand reapers can be and still have enough energy to fight afterward.

[rabbitchannel]

Also, how do we know the Reapers don't have their own secret relay there in dark space? The Mu Relay was hidden for an extended period of time. How do we know the Reapers didn't sneak one in there while we were all swimming in the primordial soup stage?

[glacier1701]

The Reapers MUST have good FTL drives. If they did not then they would NOT have become the threat they are. If you think about it there was a time when there were not Reapers. Someone created them (despite what we get from Sovereign). Now at that time there were most probably no Mass Relays. For them to have 'conquered' the galaxy they would have had to have been able to spread very rapidly or face an organised resistance from the other races in the galaxy who would have time to group up and face the few Reapers 'alive' at that time. The existance of the Reapers and no other advanced technological race until now means they have good FTL drives - a lot more advanced than ours. After all as soon as we can use the Relays we do so and stop work on FTL drives. Its part of the trap that the Reapers have built. They know what could happen if someone has really good FTL drives.

It also begs the question of why didnt Harbinger get The Collectors to build a new Citadel type relay? Lots simpler than the 'plans' they seem to have tried.

Modifié par glacier1701, 22 février 2010 - 12:05 .

[Schroing]

Maybe they'll sacrifice most of their forces in some ridiculous pseudo-scientific way to get a few of their strongest or something across very quickly. It'd explain just how the hell Shepard is gonna handle it.

It'd also explain why they'd have delayed for so long. Hardly an optimal, uh, option.

Modifié par Schroing, 22 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[Pauravi]

First of all, I don't think that your assumption that the FoV is 90 degrees is a safe one.



Next of all, conventional FTL drives in ME can propel a ship approximately 12LY per day (MEwiki on FTL). Assuming that Reaper tech is no better than conventional (clearly wrong), it only takes ~11 years to travel 50,000LY in a sprint. I think double-speed is not an unreasonable assumption, so that means only ~5.5 years even if they ARE 50 kLY away, and they could be significantly less considering the imprecision in determining view angle. After all, do you know exactly where they measure the edge of the galaxy from? Also, notice how you can't see the entire diameter anyway? The view angle could very well be wider than 90 deg, and the view doesn't encompass all 100 kLY of the galactic diameter, which would mean a significantly shorter distance than you calculated.



Lastly... to be perfectly honest I think it is a bit silly to make these sorts of assumptions about the story based on doing imprecise mathematical calculations eyeballed from a scene that is clearly meant to be dramatic rather than purely informative.

[The Angry One]

The Citadel plan comes in two parts and both are vitally important to the Reapers:



1) Instantly kill the entire government of the galaxy, have access to important censor data and bring in the Reaper fleet.



2) The Citadel locks down the entire relay network. Everybody is stranded in their local clusters for easy culling.



The Reapers require the consumption of an entire galactic population, this means their energy requirements and expenditures must be enormous. If they could simply take on the galaxy in a straight fight and win they'd just do that. They can't, they're gambling that they can win before they die because they have no other choice.

[Rip504]

How much of Citadel space is unexplored,not to mention Terminus etc.They may have something as simple as a backup relay.They were going to jump into Citadel space through the Citadel as a relay.

Who is to say the Reapers don't have a backup Relay?

[Doug84]

adam_grif wrote...

200 times the speed of light? Try again.

At the given rate of 12 ly/day for a "typical FTL drive", we get 4383 times the speed of light. The Normandy being an advanced frigate with a large drive core can go faster, and the reapers having the largest core in the known universe would be able to go faster still.

12 ly/day gives us ~11 years for a return trip. I mentioned the drive core charge problem in previous threads, but everybody just shuts their eyes and shouts THEY HAVE ADVANCED TECH SO ITS NOT A PROBLEM. It's the all time champion non-argument used around these parts.

True, true, though in an admittly weak defence of the charge-problem deniers, the Reapers are so advanced its not wholly outside the realms of possibly. That said, I doubt the Reapers will just fly back into the Galaxy.

I do wonder what their planning, given they where all powering up for something.