118 réponses à ce sujet

[madisk]

If we assume the camera field of view is 90 degrees, then some quick 'n dirty math has me coming up with a value that says the Reapers are currently positioned some 50,000 lightyears from our galaxy.

Zoom-out close-up.

/thread.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

tomaltach wrote...

I'm also not sure I'd consider the drift range all that huge. At the upper end you're talking about a few light-seconds to light-minutes drift across a distance of thousands of light-years.

As was said before, that the drift range by far exceeds the range of the relay entry corridor as per the mass relay entry videos, then unless the receiving end is "magic" and operates in a completely different fashion to the sending end (extremely unlikely and incredibly far fetched to suggest such), then the receiving end has no direct control over the exit location.

It's because the exit drift range by far exceeds the in-game shown entry control range is what is the issue.

If the destination exit point was always within the destination relay's exhibited control distance, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.  It isn't, so it's not consistent to argue that the destination relay is necessary (other than perhaps acting as a locational beacon).

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 06 mars 2010 - 09:16 .

[Moleculor]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

By design or necessity?  Which, and prove it.

It doesn't matter, as it is obvious (from ME1) that that is the only way the relays work. They CAN NOT function without communication between the two relays (activating one end activates the other, and activating the other is required to arrive at that end).

One can assume that they are designed that way -out- of necessity, though, since both ends NOT being needed would mean that the entire plot of ME1 was a sham, and Shepard was really just a crazy loon trying to kill an alien ship who only wanted to give the Citadel a 'really close hug'.

Ultimately it comes down to whether or not they have a relay at their end in Dark Space, and if they do, why don't they just use it to jump back to a different relay if they all work the same?

Because they don't?

The Citadel is noticably different than the mass relays. The mass relays are one shape. The Citadel is another. This implies incompatability between the darkspace relay and the galactic relays. Also, if galactic relays could be reoriented to work with the darkspace relay, don't you think that Sovereign would have done that, instead of crazy suicide runs at the Citadel? This is far greater evidence that the darkspace/Citadel pair is incompatible with the standard relay network. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the darkspace relay looks nearly identical to the Citadel (out of technological necessity).

The fleet jump article was inferencing that the other end does nothing at all to really "catch" the other end, since it varies over such a huge range of error.  At best, it's working as a locational beacon, and that's at best in terms of your comment of being "guaranteed- that relays talk to each other".

You mean this article?

Did you skip past all the cutscenes in ME1 and ME2? That might explain why you're confused about this.

Vigil (a Prothean VI you meet in ME1, if you didn't know) clearly states that when the Reapers arrived at the Citadel, they killed anyone present, and then shut the relay network down, cutting every single star cluster off from every single other star cluster. The Reapers then reactivate each individual pair as they move slowly through the galaxy, culling the organic life.

Even if it's magic fairy dust doing it, that still shows that the relay network communicates with each other. Regardless of HOW they're doing it, the relays are talking.

The Reaper IFF (a thing you pick up in ME2) is designed to force the Omega-4/Galactic Core relay pair to be much more precise in its transit, to the point of guaranteeing that the ship carrying said IFF will be depositied in one particular safe zone in one particular area of the galactic core.

This means that the relays are capable of precise, controlled send/recieve. Drift? It's an INTENTIONAL flaw in the relay network, that affects any ship that is not a friend of the Reapers. Why? Well, if, by some chance the organic life in the galaxy DOES manage to mount some form of organized resistance, the Reapers would want an easy way of weakening the fleet of defenders. What easier way is there than guaranteeing that they're going to be spread out and disorganized the moment they come out of transit? 

A Reaper force could turn on a relay pair, wait a reasonable amount of time for the other side of the pair to realize the relay just came back up, form a fleet, and fly it through, only to have drift spread them out and weaken them. The Reapers could then move in and wipe them up.

I would even go so far as to bet that "drift" is a intentional, coded randomization of the 'catch' protocol in mass relays, and that mass relays would tell any Reapers exactly how much drift is going to affect each and every ship, allowing for much faster Reaper responses to defending fleets warping in. Detection of those ships otherwise would take place at light speed. FTL comms from Relays would mean instantaneous (and far faster) warning, allowing the Reapers to swoop in (like the Collector ship did with the IFF's signal) and blast away.

We see further evidence of drift being an artificial flaw in ME1 when Sovereign's IFF clearly allows the Geth fleet to warp into Citadel space at a very advantageous position, precisely where they would need to warp in to do massive amounts of damage. Unless we're going to go with the "they were just lucky" theory, which I doubt.

Alternately, it is absolutely insulting to believe that such an intelligent race would not put up a secondary relay, such as one behind the Omega-4 relay area, to be able to get back into the galaxy.  If you want to talk about fundamental writing issues, that one's absolutely enormous and defies belief.

Arrogance? The Reapers seem to have that in abundance. Arrogance could easily be the explanation for why they don't have a backup system in place.

And putting a second Citadel in the galactic core? Are you crazy? The Collector base was small. I'd bet it's length was about the same as the Citadel tower, or maybe even half that. Certainly wider, but not NEARLY the size of the Citadel. How do I figure? Well, from ME2 cutscenes, we know that there is only one central chamber in the base, and that's where the Reaper is being grown. It's design (from seeing it from the inside) implies only being designed to grow a single Reaper at a time. Even if it COULD hold more, we're trying to make the Collector base as big as possible for the sake of argument. Lets pretend that a single, full grow Reaper could fill the entire central chamber. Compare that to the size of Sovereign, and compare Sovereign to the size of the Citadel. The proportions add up to the Collector base being much MUCH smaller than the entire Citadel.

Why is size important? Well... it's the Galactic Core. Home of exploding suns, and black holes? A place where a giant, oversized mass effect field of epic proportions is necessary just to keep that small base safe? Imagine how much eezo would be required to keep a station the size of the Citadel safe! The power requirements, just to fight the gravitational pull of the nearby multiple black holes! A small base can be protected. A station the size of a small moon can not.

What it comes down to is that the Citadel transported them there to Dark Space, and it's the Citadel, and only the Citadel that can bring them back.

I could be comfortable with the Citadel not being a mass relay at all, and instead being some other completely alien technology that, say, swaps two regions of space-time or something. Teleportation, rather than 'going really really fast', and that no end point is required. Sure, I could believe that.

Regardless of if they have a relay at their end or not, it's been made perfectly, absolutely clear that they can not come back to the galaxy through the Citadel without the Citadel being ready to recieve them. It's also been made clear that they can't fly back either, as they would have done that in the last 1500 years if they could have. It doesn't matter if they have a relay at their end or not, and it doesn't matter how the relay system works, because it's clear that their way back into the galaxy requires the Keepers to wake up and push some buttons to turn the Citadel on.  Period. Fullstop. We don't know how the Citadel works, nor do we know for certain how the mass relays work  We DO know that they can not (currently) get here from there without the Citadel being on.

Modifié par Moleculor, 06 mars 2010 - 09:38 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Moleculor wrote...


I could be comfortable with the Citadel not being a mass relay at all, and instead being some other completely alien technology that, say, swaps two regions of space-time or something. Teleportation, rather than 'going really really fast', and that no end point is required. Sure, I could believe that.

Well, ultimately, that is what I was leading to.  If not so much alien, but a specialised/advanced application of the same mass effect concept.

Molecular, I get the feeling that you think I'm disagreeing with you.  I'm not.  I'm actually largely on your side of the coin, and most of my posts were in response to other posters here, and not yourself.

I don't believe that the Reapers are flying back.  I don't believe that the Reapers have a relay at their end, and the reasons why I don't believe that is because they'd be using it to get back.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 06 mars 2010 - 09:46 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Moleculor wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

By design or necessity?  Which, and prove it.

It doesn't matter, as it is obvious (from ME1) that that is the only way the relays work.

Sorry, it does matter.  That is the very founding part of the argument.  Just because you observe something working by a designed limitation does not mean that the limit is real.  This is the very basis of what is being discussed.  I simply cannot fathom how that point is just so hard to accept.

You also conveniently ignored the "magic" that would be required for the receiving end to exhibit any sort of control over the mass effect projection.


Edit:  Citadel dimensions

44.7kms long x 12.8kms wide when open.  Hardly the "size of a small moon", and definitely the Collector Base would be getting close to that size if we assume that the SR-2 is appox. 100m long, and then look at the Collector Ship next to the SR-2, and then the Collector Ship next to the Collector Base.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 06 mars 2010 - 10:01 .

[Zemore]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Moleculor wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

By design or necessity?  Which, and prove it.

It doesn't matter, as it is obvious (from ME1) that that is the only way the relays work.

Sorry, it does matter.  That is the very founding part of the argument.  Just because you observe something working by a designed limitation does not mean that the limit is real.  This is the very basis of what is being discussed.  I simply cannot fathom how that point is just so hard to accept.

You also conveniently ignored the "magic" that would be required for the receiving end to exhibit any sort of control over the mass effect projection.


Edit:  Citadel dimensions

44.7kms long x 12.8kms wide when open.  Hardly the "size of a small moon", and definitely the Collector Base would be getting close to that size if we assume that the SR-2 is appox. 100m long, and then look at the Collector Ship next to the SR-2, and then the Collector Ship next to the Collector Base.

Science has no place in ScienceFiction! Element Zero explains everything How can they do this? Element Zero thats physically impossible Element Zero!!

and the picture of the reapers+ Milkway its for dramatic effect i honestly dont think the people who made that part thought " Hmm it would take the reapers 20 kajillion years here and they need 20 billion jiggawats of energy to get here Plus the doc broke his flux capacitor"

[Crunk N DaTrunk]

I am curious to see how the writers allow the reapers to return. I mean if the triology finale is just putting another stop to a proxy race of indoctrinated reaper servants it will be very dissapointing. Everyone is expecting a huge organic VS reaper clash.

I agree with the thread title though, I do not think they can simply fly back into the Milky Way.

At the end of ME2, Harbinger says "You have failed, we will find ANOTHER way", which I thought implied another similar way to activate the relay to the citadel. First Saren and Soverign, then the collectors trying to make another Reaper, both of those methods failed.

Perhaps ME3 will take place in the distant future? Remember Shepard could have died in ME3, assuming there isnt another Lazarus project. It would be easier for Bioware if they just set ME3 in the future, allowing the reapers to arrive by conventional FTL travel, at the same time switiching to a new main character rather than have a ME3 with dialogue for not only a male/female shepard, but male/female replacement for if Shepard died at the end of ME3.

Think of the council live/die choice in ME1, hardly even an issue in ME2. Bioware didnt want to make 2 seperate games where one has a council and another has an all human council, so they just made the citadel basically 1 room, and added a short dialogue scene difference between the 2 possible choices.

What I am getting at is that for every choice the player makes, Bioware has to prepare for both choices in the sequel. Take Kaiden or Ashley for example, why would Bioware have them be a major character in ME3 when its possible they died in ME1? Seems like a lot of work for something that 50% of the players will have killed off in the original game.

I think Bioware would love to simply set ME3 in the future, it makes it a lot simpler than having to account for multiple scenarios, such as any of the squad members dieing, shepard included, combined with the scenarios from ME1. Changing a couple sentences in the history codex entry is much easier than making tons of different chatacters and cutscenes and dialogue for characters that might not even be alive for some player's stories.

So the reapers could very well take the long way back to the Milky Way. Though I wouldnt put it past Bioware to simply make some never before mentioned technologyrelay to account for this.

Modifié par Crunk N DaTrunk, 06 mars 2010 - 10:21 .

[gr8mc]

Having overseen the drestruction of the universe several times the reapers may have refined there methods after all the most important resource they require is liquid humanoids for the construction of new reaper ships so the sneakier the better now that they can't come through the citadel they may have to resort to plan b and you can be sure plan b doesn't include a mass invasion or all out war and the collectors were probably the only the first of the allies to reveal themselves

[Lord_Metal666]

I wonder if those large anomalies hidden in the gas giants will turn out to be reapers in ME3.

[Sad Dragon]

first of all:
@Crunk N DaTrunk - It has been stated that if your shepard dies in ME2 you can not import that save into ME3 which means that unless they kill shepard out of screen between ME2 and ME3 he can not have died.

And now back on topic.

Working on the assumption that the citadel is infact a relay it would stand to reason that there would have to be another relay in darkspace. This relay might however only be compatible with the citadel relay - as with the omega 4 relay and the galatic core one, or any primary relay pair.  This would offer an explanation as to why the reapers cant just use their relay to travle to another spot in the galaxy.
As for the reciver and sender part, in general and more in terms of these two relays I would sugest that both relays must be active to some extent. My agrument for this is the communication between relays in the relay network. It would not be a big leap of reason to sugest that the when one relay wishes to send something to another relay that the reciving relay will try and find enough space so that the mass would not collide with any other body of mass in its vesinity. The drift aspect would still apply but it would be applied after the fact that the end point has been calculated.

To address the topics question if they are flying back or not. I would have to say maybe. The faliour of Soverign would indicate that they would risk exposing themselves as they dont want to wait around in darkspace any longer. However I am fairly sure that Soverign was 100% certain of success. As for the human reaper I have always thought of that as a side project that turned into Plan C.
Let me explain: They have the collectors there to try and find suitable races to turn into reapers. This objective is not mutualy exclusiv to the reaping of the galaxy. When Soverign failed and they found humans to be geneticly suitable they just whent ahead and started the process. This reaper would then take Soverigns place and go to work.
This move would indicate that they would still have patiance left as the reaper embryo was far from compleete. However this plan failed as well. So that is 3 plans that have failed for the reapers so far. Now, they could have another backup plan that does not involve them flying back into the galaxy but i also think they might be getting desperate enough to do it.
"So why not do it in the first place?" - well this is a question for the writers and i can only offer my own thoughts on it. Maybe it has to do with the discharging aspect of FTL travle. Though i did find an interesting thing on the wiki that would sugest that they might not have a problem with discharging at all:

Mass Effect Wikia said...
Space stations and similar which are not located near planets are usually equipped with their own discharging facilities; the Citadel has dozens of these.

Maybe it has to do with the energy used up with such a journye and that they would be left in a far more wounerable state by the time they reach the galaxy?

Personaly i am more amazed by the fact that they would strand themselves in Darkspace with no easy means of getting back into the galaxy - with the exception of the Citadel relay.

/TSD

[superimposed]

Could be.... Could be.... that maybe it was entirely for dramatic effect.

[tomaltach]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

As was said before, that the drift range by far exceeds the range of the relay entry corridor as per the mass relay entry videos, then unless the receiving end is "magic" and operates in a completely different fashion to the sending end (extremely unlikely and incredibly far fetched to suggest such), then the receiving end has no direct control over the exit location.

It's because the exit drift range by far exceeds the in-game shown entry control range is what is the issue.

If the destination exit point was always within the destination relay's exhibited control distance, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.  It isn't, so it's not consistent to argue that the destination relay is necessary (other than perhaps acting as a locational beacon).

I don't think it's all that far fetched to suggest that a relay operates somewhat differently when receiving. However, active control over the sending relay's mass projection corridor isn't really what I had in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of, for example, using a laser to align objects vs. eyeballing it. For a 50,000 LY trip, being off by even 0.1 degrees means missing the target by 87 LY. With current galactic technology that's around a 7 day trip with a drive core that reaches charge saturation in a bit over 2 days. Arriving in the wrong location could mean you're utterly screwed.

This brings us around to the argument that Reaper technology is better. I don't find relying solely on that argument to be particularly compelling. It's a nebulous statement that can make the Reapers as arbitrarily strong or weak as necessary to trump arguments that don't rely on it.

Another idea is some kind of necessary telemetry information like coordinates. The idea of coordinates is interesting in that if you liken it to GPS, then the intentional reduced precision due to lack of a Reaper IFF can be compared to the Selective Availability feature of GPS.

[Moleculor]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Edit:  Citadel dimensions

44.7kms long x 12.8kms wide when open.  Hardly the "size of a small moon",

If by 'hardly', you mean it's longer than Phobos and larger in all dimensions than Deimos, then yes, it's larger than a small moon.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Moleculor wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Edit:  Citadel dimensions

44.7kms long x 12.8kms wide when open.  Hardly the "size of a small moon",

If by 'hardly', you mean it's longer than Phobos and larger in all dimensions than Deimos, then yes, it's larger than a small moon.

http://en.wikipedia....tural_satellite

Phobos & Deimos aren't really moons, but more like orbiting asteroids.  They are amongst the smallest asteroids orbiting any planet in the solar system.  When talking about moons, one generally thinks of bodies achieving hydrostatic equilibrium (ie. spherical shaped bodies), for which a "small moon" is around 300-500kms in diameter, as opposed to merely a gravitationally captured rock/asteroid.

Nitpicking definitions aside, you did sidestep the issue that the Collector Base really is about the same sort of size as the Citadel, and secondly, if it is so gravitationally difficult to keep the Base where it is, then that does not explain all the objects in the accretion disk still being there for millions of years and merely orbiting, so no, building a Citadel sized relay there is entirely possible given what is observed.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 06 mars 2010 - 06:15 .

[Moleculor]

It's not the same size as the Citadel. Not even close.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Moleculor wrote...

It's not the same size as the Citadel. Not even close.

(sigh)  Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "no no no" does not constitue an argument.

The SR2 would be about 100m long, by all visual evidence.  The Collector Ship is at least 20x as long as the SR2, making it about 2kms long.  The Collector Ship looks absolutely tiny coming out of the Collector Base.  By that measurement alone (I watched the raw .bik video files fromt the game install) the base is at least around 30kms long, and ~6kms wide.

The Citadel tower is 1047m long.  A reaper is about 2kms long.

As a secondary estimation of size, perhaps you missed the scenes within the base of looking far, far, into the distance where all the tubes were headed, and then the flying platform scene of how far they went then, and then the reaper building room, and then the base extended far into the distance beyond that, and all that distance only accounted for about 1/3 of the length of the base according to EDI.

All reasonable approximations point to the base being around 30kms long and 6kms wide, and that's pretty close to the size of the Citadel.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 06 mars 2010 - 06:50 .

[Crunk N DaTrunk]

I think its funny that you guys are probably thinking more about this than the actual writers, who will simply invent some new never-before-heard-of plot device if they dont just have the reapers fly back into the milky way

[Lieber]

So... anyone's thoughts now that they flew to the Batarian relay?