150 réponses à ce sujet

[flem1]

Let me put it this way -- if he had betrayed you and gotten Garrus, Tali, and the rest of your team killed, what would you have done?

Protecting him from dirty things you would have to do is to treat him as a child.

Modifié par flem1, 22 février 2010 - 03:57 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Akrylik wrote...

for the record, isn't this entire scenario almost exactly ripped off of GTAIV?

I'm pretty sure GTAIV ripped of it's story telling virtues from the first ME, but that's just me. If you look closely at the structure of the story and the moral dilemma's GTAIV's protaginist is faced with, it very closely relates to ME's sotry structure. Like I said though, this is not fact, just my opinion.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Sidonis is bad. I bet I would've shot him if even if I knew it was wrong to do it. However that was not about Shepard, it was about Garrus. Letting him kill Sidonis seems like a bad idea and something that would probably haunt Garrus for the rest of his life. Just look at all his mistakes. His work with C-Sec, his anger at his father and the mess at Omega. He regrets every one of those things and because of it he has nowhere else to go except to continue on with Shepard. Killing Sidonis just adds one more mistake in Garrus' life and one more thing he'll constantly remember. I doubt it is as he says that he'll forget and move one. Look at C-Sec and his team, he still can't stop thinking about him.



Shepard is probably the only thing Garrus has got, just look at what happened when he/she died. He probably couldn't handle Shepard being dead plus seeing all the politicians destroying everything Shepard did. That probably made him go to Omega and do all those things that he regretted. Shepard and Garrus are like best friends, we saw what happened when they were separated. Let's just hope that he comes back in ME3 as a squadmate, I can't figure what he'd be doing. After all like I said Shepard's probably the only thing he has left.

[Punahedan]

TudorWolf wrote...

I stop him, every time.

Garrus is obsessed with getting revenge throughout, on the assumption that Sidonis willingly betrayed him. When you actually speak with him though, it's obvious Sidonis is already "dead", his guilt has consumed him.
Not only that, but I actually think that Sidonis saved Garrus, but it's just never brought up. Garrus mentioned that Sidonis lured him away when the attack happened. This act likely saved Garrus' life, chances are he'd have been killed if he'd been there like the others.

Garrus has a good heart that was clouded by anger and lust for revenge, but making him listen to what Sidonis actually has to say shows him that revenge isn't the right way to handle it. He's able to put the past behind him and move forward without blood on his hands.


Now, of course this all my opinion, but that's how I feel on the matter

Agreed with all of this, but especially the bolded. I don't remember if Sidonis ever mentions this, but why would he have lured Garrus away? On the one hand, Garrus could be the feather that tips the scale and could have blown away the mercs and gotten Sidonis in trouble. On the other...maybe Garrus wouldn't have survived, either. As I understood it, his group was really, really good.

Sidonis has already screwed himself over for the rest of his life, and it probably wouldn't have been long anyway, my suspicion is that he'd have committed suicide soon enough. I think that's reason enough to spare him, and he turns himself in after that. But even more, Garrus has always been a little hot-headed, I think, and it's important that he learns to chill out and make decisions like this based on reason, not on how pissed he is. And given enough time to think about it, he would have felt bad, come to regret it, and that'll mess with his decision-making later, as well.

I'm upset that this lesson didn't stick from ME1, though I guess it's all in the name of badassery. So long as it's clear to him now.

Modifié par Hawkeyed Cai Li, 22 février 2010 - 04:07 .

[JamieCOTC]

huntrrz wrote...

anmiro wrote...

I talked him out of it. My Shepard is a paragon obviously, but I agree that letting kill Sedonis would do more damage to Garrus than good and personally, I think letting some one like Sedonis live with their shame is a far greater punishment.

THIS.  Letting him live consumed by guilt is actually the more vindictive revenge - and one that doesn't put more blood on Garrus' hands.

MikeFL25 wrote...

So how do you stop Garrus from killing Sedonis, and how does he react afterwards?

I have a high paragon score and repeatedly questioned Garrus as we worked our way toward Sedonis, so that may have primed some of the options I was given.  "Warn Sedonis", then use a paragon interupt to pull him back from stepping into Garrus' sights, "Let me talk to him" then... I forget how it's labeled, but it's an obvious 'there's no point in killing him, he's already dead/paying for his crime' option.

It seemed fairly straightforward to me, but I don't know if there are preconditions to getting those options.

If you go back to the Citadel, the news says that Sedonis confessed to his crimes and gave himself to the police. 

This is one of my favorite loyalty missions.  I especially love the part where Shep and Garrus are in the car and Garrus asks, "What would you do?"

[cipher_Cero]

flem1 wrote...

Let me put it this way -- if he had betrayed you and gotten Garrus, Tali, and the rest of your team killed, what would you have done?

Protecting him from dirty things you would have to do is to treat him as a child.

It depends on whether or not he'd go on killing anybody else. Sidonis wasn't much of a dangerous individual as he was just a coward who just wanted to save himself. The guilt also poisoned whatever was left of his life.

You either put him out of his misery or hope he lives forever.

I'd let him live in that case. Clearly he's not much of a danger to anyone but himself anymore.

You're not treating him like a child, nor are you protecting him. Again, Garrus, in-mythos, still winds up making the choice himself, even though you're the one who moved the analog stick. It doesn't compromise his ability to do what needs to be done, and in the process doesn't allow it to consume him the way cowardice and guilt is tearing Sidonis apart right now.


It's something else entirely if he had any intention of killing anyone else. There's a reason why I let Garrus kill Saleon. Letting Saleon live meant he'd continue hurting other people through the trafficking and harvesting of organs in living persons. That one can't happen.

[Esker02]

flem1 wrote...

Let me put it this way -- if he had betrayed you and gotten Garrus, Tali, and the rest of your team killed, what would you have done?

Protecting him from dirty things you would have to do is to treat him as a child.

This. Well said.

Garrus knows what's best for Garrus - a true friend helps him with this, not one who gets in his way.

[sarelis]

If Sidonis had actually personally killed the people in Garrus's squad, I would have let Garrus kill him. As it is though, I don't think Sidonis is "evil" enough to warrant it. After all, he was coerced into betraying them- it wasn't his intention. And as terrible a person as Sidonis seems, he was one of the few people who joined Garrus's squad in the first place, wanting to take down mercs and all that. You could argue that his heart was in the right place but his biggest flaw was that he was a complete coward. And as distasteful as that is, I don't know if cowardice deserves capital punishment.



When I first played, I thought I wouldn't get Garrus's loyalty unless I let him take the shot, so I did. It seemed like a really hollow end to the mission though, so I replayed it, and now I always talk him out of it. Even Garrus says "there's still some good in him" and to me this is most important reason. Letting Sidonis live isn't like letting a stone cold murderer walk free, and Sidonis might do something good someday, no matter how small. If you kill him, it's just a waste.



I think it's important to open Garrus's eyes up to the fact that he was pinning all his guilt and anger on Sidonis (thinking that killing him was going to make him feel better), when he should really just make an effort to let it go and stop dwelling on the past. Its like telling him he shouldn't let his emotions overrule his better judgment (something he seems to have a problem with-- he mentions it when you recruit him).

[Amethyst Deceiver]

Ramikadyc wrote...

Revenge is one my favorite concepts for stories--hell, Kill Bill is my favorite movie--and I exact revenge with no sweat against those who wrong me, but I'm not questioning whether or not he SHOULD die (because I 100% think he should), I'm questioning if the effect it will have on Garrus will be worse than the effect of letting him live.

dont worry. no matter what you do in ME2, it wont affect his personality in ME3.

people seem to overexaggerate this "actions will affect the future" thing way too much. in ME2 garrus is exactly the same character no matter how you dealt with him in ME1. even if you went 100% preachy-paragon on him, he still ends up a bitter vengeful renegade in ME2.

so he will undoubtedly have a preset canon personality in ME3.

the only thing that will affect this in ME2 is whether or not he survived the suicide mission.. as in if he is alive or dead.

nothing you do or choose will affect his canon peronality in any significant way outside of a couple extra sentences of dialog

[Isaantia]

scyphozoa wrote...

I played out all sequences and my favorite is warning sidonis, paragon interupt save, make him admit it was just to save his own worthless life and so i can let garrus hear it, then i let garrus take the shot.

"i'm with garrus on this one"

This is my favorite too.

[Awesome Helmet]

i thought it was awesome at the end of the mission when your about to leave garrus says "i know you want to talk about this shepard, but i dont."



that made me laugh. i wonder how many NPCs dont "want" to talk to shepard.

[MajorStranger]

Garrus in Mass Effect 2 is a lost soul. He lost his whole team and have trouble getting over. He doesn't want to kill Sidonis. After Shepard's death he lost his way. But not letting him kill Sidonis you are a better friend than helping him kill Sidonis. Garrus doing it would go against eveything he stand for and, in the end, he is grateful that Shepard didn't let him do a big mistake

[Gamine]

sarelis wrote...

If Sidonis had actually personally killed the people in Garrus's squad, I would have let Garrus kill him. As it is though, I don't think Sidonis is "evil" enough to warrant it. After all, he was coerced into betraying them- it wasn't his intention. And as terrible a person as Sidonis seems, he was one of the few people who joined Garrus's squad in the first place, wanting to take down mercs and all that. You could argue that his heart was in the right place but his biggest flaw was that he was a complete coward. And as distasteful as that is, I don't know if cowardice deserves capital punishment.

When I first played, I thought I wouldn't get Garrus's loyalty unless I let him take the shot, so I did. It seemed like a really hollow end to the mission though, so I replayed it, and now I always talk him out of it. Even Garrus says "there's still some good in him" and to me this is most important reason. Letting Sidonis live isn't like letting a stone cold murderer walk free, and Sidonis might do something good someday, no matter how small. If you kill him, it's just a waste.

I think it's important to open Garrus's eyes up to the fact that he was pinning all his guilt and anger on Sidonis (thinking that killing him was going to make him feel better), when he should really just make an effort to let it go and stop dwelling on the past. Its like telling him he shouldn't let his emotions overrule his better judgment (something he seems to have a problem with-- he mentions it when you recruit him).

Agreed 100%.
He could have kept hunting down Sidonis even if you deny him the shot, but he didn't. I was not particularly invested either way, I let his reaction decide which save I ultimately went with. Killing Sidonis illicted very little from him, he seemed thankful but still ultimately empty. Sparing him got something more from Garrus, so that's what I stuck with.

But I do like how people can argue for both sides of this and no one is really wrong.

[Fluffeh Kitteh]

My Garrus was in the middle of some calibrations and by the time he was done, Sidonis walked off...





Anyway, I'm in the "kill Sidonis" camp. Unless there's some startling revelation that Sidonis was compelled to carry out the betrayal, with his family held hostage or something, I'm inclined to believe the betrayal was out of his own free will, and that he really had it coming.

[Ramikadyc]

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

Ramikadyc wrote...

Revenge is one my favorite concepts for stories--hell, Kill Bill is my favorite movie--and I exact revenge with no sweat against those who wrong me, but I'm not questioning whether or not he SHOULD die (because I 100% think he should), I'm questioning if the effect it will have on Garrus will be worse than the effect of letting him live.

dont worry. no matter what you do in ME2, it wont affect his personality in ME3.

I don't believe that. ME3 is the end of this trilogy, and I expect all the stops to be pulled. The choice transition from ME1 wasn't that extreme into ME2, and I think mostly due to the fact that letting choices branch so significantly creates a huge problem for the developers as far as allocating resources to successfully give each and every story possibility the kind of polish that's being given to the two or three (or so) that are continuing on to ME3 right now. That's understandable to me. But since ME3 is the finale to it all, the developers don't have to worry about tying up every single plot branch in a sequel, so I expect all the stops to be pulled. Sure, maybe I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but that's a risk I'm willing to take, especially after seeing the massive improvement that ME2 was to ME1....that, to me, means ME3 has to be even greater.

Maybe it won't be like that. Then again, maybe it will. Might as well cover all my bases and be sure I'm making the choice that's right for me.

[cipher_Cero]

Esker02 wrote...

flem1 wrote...

Let me put it this way -- if he had betrayed you and gotten Garrus, Tali, and the rest of your team killed, what would you have done?

Protecting him from dirty things you would have to do is to treat him as a child.

This. Well said.

Garrus knows what's best for Garrus - a true friend helps him with this, not one who gets in his way.

I reiterate.

You may be the one who moves the analog stick, but watch how the scene plays out.

Garrus doesn't continue to tell you to get out of the way. When Sidonis is walking away, Garrus never takes the shot despite the fact that he still had a clean one. Garrus, himself, decides not to pull the trigger. In the conversation afterwards, Garrus himself says that he couldn't do it. Garrus never argues with you afterwards or expresses any resentment over you not getting out of the way.
All the "Paragon" option does is let Garrus know what Sidonis has really been like, and he makes the decision himself. Not Shepard.

Garrus knows what's best for Garrus.

[enormousmoonboots]

InvaderErl wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

To be fair, Jaroth's brother likely had it coming.

Well, if someone murdered my brother, I don't care whether he 'had it coming', I would ruin that person.

Sure but that's not a failure of Garrus' morality somehow.

Right, but what I mean is that Garrus needs to learn about shades of gray. People do 'bad' things for reasons other than to be evil.

Fluffeh Kitteh wrote...

My Garrus was in the middle of some calibrations and by the time he was done, Sidonis walked off...

Anyway,
I'm in the "kill Sidonis" camp. Unless there's some startling
revelation that Sidonis was compelled to carry out the betrayal, with
his family held hostage or something, I'm inclined to believe the
betrayal was out of his own free will, and that he really had it
coming.

The mercs had him and threatened to kill him, probably would have tortured him. It's not a good justification, but he didn't do it out of greed or malice, which is enough for him to keep his life, as far as I'm concerned.

[stillnotking]

The strangest thing about the end of that mission is you get no Paragon/Renegade points for choosing any of the options.

[Super_Fr33k]

Some people here take a patronizing attitude towards Garrus-- I don't really think of him as Shepard's pupil or anything. Garrus is, fundamentally, someone who believes in justice, and in his competence to find and carry it out, rules be damned.



Even as a pretty devout paragon, I agree with a lot of Garrus' statements about ignoring laws and orders. How could any Shepard not agree? In ME1, you're a Spectre and have great license to ignore the law, and the Council is constantly proving that it is foolish. In ME2, the Council is even more useless and the Alliance is too weak to help. Garrus makes a lot of sense throughout the series, and I usually trust his judgment.



But back to Sidonis. I usually let Garrus take the shot, few questions asked, because, well, it's Shepard and Garrus' jobs to kill bad people. Sidonis doesn't deserve to live anymore or less than countless mercs they've gunned down, and I think Sidonis' crime is beyond the threshold where remorse matters. Sidonis killed ten people simply to save himself, and there's little reason to trust he wouldn't do so again (knowing what you know at the time). I do, however, try to keep Garrus from being unnecessarily cruel while interrogating Harkin and his cronies, because justice is incompatible with enjoying someone else's suffering. Sidonis' death is quick, clean, merciful. It is as just a punishment as Shepard can give, considering there's no proof beyond Garrus' word and it would be impossible to try him in court.



Also, whether Garrus kills him or not, I think there's only so much closure to be had-- his team is still dead, and he still feels some responsibility for their deaths. The only real closure comes from time, and doing enough good to outweigh the grief.

[bobsmyuncle]

sarelis wrote...

If Sidonis had actually personally killed the people in Garrus's squad, I would have let Garrus kill him. As it is though, I don't think Sidonis is "evil" enough to warrant it. After all, he was coerced into betraying them- it wasn't his intention. And as terrible a person as Sidonis seems, he was one of the few people who joined Garrus's squad in the first place, wanting to take down mercs and all that. You could argue that his heart was in the right place but his biggest flaw was that he was a complete coward. And as distasteful as that is, I don't know if cowardice deserves capital punishment.

When I first played, I thought I wouldn't get Garrus's loyalty unless I let him take the shot, so I did. It seemed like a really hollow end to the mission though, so I replayed it, and now I always talk him out of it. Even Garrus says "there's still some good in him" and to me this is most important reason. Letting Sidonis live isn't like letting a stone cold murderer walk free, and Sidonis might do something good someday, no matter how small. If you kill him, it's just a waste.

I think it's important to open Garrus's eyes up to the fact that he was pinning all his guilt and anger on Sidonis (thinking that killing him was going to make him feel better), when he should really just make an effort to let it go and stop dwelling on the past. Its like telling him he shouldn't let his emotions overrule his better judgment (something he seems to have a problem with-- he mentions it when you recruit him).

^ This. I adore Garrus, but I'm not in favor of sniping a man without warning. Sidonis betrayed good men to save his own skin, and to me that makes him a pathetic wretch. I don't think he's worth killing (as you said, he's not evil, he's a coward), but even if I did, I think you should hear a person's last words before you execute him or her.

Super_Fr33k wrote...

Some people here take a patronizing
attitude towards Garrus-- I don't really think of him as Shepard's
pupil or anything. Garrus is, fundamentally, someone who believes in
justice, and in his competence to find and carry it out, rules be
damned.

...

Also, whether Garrus kills him or not, I
think there's only so much closure to be had-- his team is still dead,
and he still feels some responsibility for their deaths. The only real
closure comes from time, and doing enough good to outweigh the
grief.

I can see your point, and I played the game this way once. However, even when I block his shot, I don't do it because I think I need to impart a moral lesson to him. I do it because he involved my Shepard, and she wants to at least hear Sidonis' justification for what he did. After that, it was Garrus' choice to let him walk away, not hers. She happens to approve, but then, she was also the type to want to bring in Dr. Saleon for trial when she (as a Spectre) didn't have to.

[huntrrz]

JamieCOTC wrote...

If you go back to the Citadel, the news says that Sedonis confessed to his crimes and gave himself to the police. 

Huh!  I missed that!  (Then again, I stopped poking the news kiosks because I thought they were just recycling the same stories - and the intercom announcements often get lost in the other noise.)

[Llandaryn]

Vakarian Loyalty -- How does a true friend help Garrus?

I let him kill Sidonis, because in the back of my head, I heard Garrus posing the hypothetical "What would you do if somebody killed Ashley or Kaidan or Tali?" question, and yeah, I'd probably take revenge. Not letting Garrus have his revenge would be somewhat hypocritical after that, and the measure of a true friend is how willing they are to go to hell with you.

[MikeFL25]

silentstephi wrote...

The one thing about this mission is that in order to get the most information out of him, you have to act counter to what you are (in my case, I play Renegade.)

If you're already playing the paragon, you get the full story. Playing the renegade gets you /claps hands, That's all set.

So I felt slightly jipped out of story the first time I played through.

Granted, in my second play, I milked it out. Questioned Garrus, questioned his resolve on this, because if he was going to go that route, down that path, I wanted to make sure he had thought it out, to make him realize exactly what he was doing.

Sidonus confessed his emptiness. I let Garrus shoot him. Why? Because at that point, he was doing Sidonus a favor.

What part of the game (quest?) did that screenshot come from?

[Varenus Luckmann]

My main character is a Paragon. He's nice. He puts humanity first, as a human, but he doesn't judge entire species or hate them. He somewhat dislikes Batarians, but that's understandable, considering his background.

However, I make one exception. Traitors.

Sidonis need more breathing holes. Garrus may be going to hell, but he'll have a friend on the road going there, if that is what he needs.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 22 février 2010 - 09:07 .

[aksoileau]

I'm very paragon when I play, but I tossed that fool out the window and killed that merc in Miranda's mission, so I let Garrus take the shot. Can't be a hypocrite!