59 réponses à ce sujet

[rumination888]

reepneep wrote...

Oh, I clicked it.  There was nothing there, just the login screen.  I took it as a condecending way of saying 'show me'.  What does this supposed (and apparently private) video show?

You could have told me it was set on private instead of acting like I'm out to get you.

[DragoonKain3]

@Dannok1234

Dragoonkain3, it's actually only elites that you would have to reload to kill with the Shuriken, regular mooks go down in one clip on insanity. Talking about melee range here so you have the double damage bonus.

My bigger question then becomes, why are you engaging shielded enemies at melee range in insanity?
 
Outside of melee range, Shuriken definitely needs to reload before making a kill. And considering you will be engaging enemies outside of melee 99% of time with the shuriken, I'd say Tempest wins out in this regard.

Would be good to know how the Claymore has a burst damage that is higher then the actual damage it does in a single shot, how do you figure that?

I'm talking about burst DPS. Claymore fires a bit faster than 1 second to fire its shot, so if you go purely by damage PER SECOND, then of course its DPS is higher than its actual damage per shot.

Sure you won't actually do that much damage in a second, but do note that the time you 'save' could be used for something else. Comparing Eviscerator to Shotgun for example, Eviscerator takes 1.25 seconds per shot. That's around 3/10ths of a second slower than the Claymore. In essences, in the time it takes the Eviscerator to fire off a shot, a Claymore user could already fire its shot AND halfway finish already its melee blow. 

In other words, you'll kill 1 enemy faster with the Claymore assuming no reload, but you'll kill 2-3 enemies or elites in a shorter time with Scimitar and Eviscerator unless you do the reload trick perfectly every time with the Claymore

How do you figure? The listed dps tables over at wikia already ACCOUNTS for the reload times without tricks of any sort.

Meaning that no, Scimitar will NOT kill multiple enemies or elites faster than the Claymore, unless the scimitar is already oneshotting enemies per hit (which it DOES NOT in Insanity). Eviscerator will match Claymore granted, but certainly not the other lower shotguns.

In essence, it boils down to at what ranges you are enganging enemies. At melee ranges, Claymore is better. At longer ranges, Eviscerator is better.

Also note that an enemy shot at point blank with a shotgun will not be shooting back at you regardless of it being dead or not thanks to the staggering effect from the impact. Making one shot kills less important then people might think.

The guy might not be shooting at you, but his friends certainly will. So the sooner you finish him off the better. And if you're already close to one guy, the others would at least be at medium range (1.25x damage) if not at melee already (2x damage). And in Insanity, you do NOT want to take a damage multiplier as much as you can help it, considering they already do craploads of damage.

[_Dannok1234]

DragoonKain3 wrote...
[snip snip]

As a vanguard it's common, and often to your advantage to charge an enemy that has shields, so thats a case where you use smgs at point blank. (note I always prefer a shotgun however, but sometimes you might want to mix things up.) 

You are completely incorrect about the Claymore rate of fire, suggesting to me that you have not actually tried this in the game. If you do not do the reload trick the Claymore will fire every 2 seconds or just above this (The recoil animation takes about 0.5 seconds. Reload takes 1.5 seconds.

The first shot with any shotgun comes at 0 seconds, the next shot will come for Scim 0.6, Evi 1.25 Claymore 2.xx. This makes it pretty clear that you will in fact attack your next enemy faster with both of the other shotguns when you charge into groups of 2-3 enemies something which I do very often on insanity as a Vanguard.

Shot, melee+shot with the scimitar and it takes 0.6 seconds to kill one enemy, next enemy is shot at 1.2 seconds (killed at 1.8). With the Evi it takes 1 headshot or bodyshot+melee so  at 1.25 seconds you shoot your next enemy. Claymore kills first enemy in 1 shot, next enemy after 2 seconds, if you have mastered the reload trick it's 1.25 seconds. Assuming these are normal enemies and not elites on insanity difficulty.

Most vanguards will agree that once you have mastered the reload trick the Claymore is slightly superior to the others because of it's great fire power against elites and such. However the difference in time taken to kill one enemy and move on is so small that it is all down to personal taste. The Claymore is a very unforgiving weapon compared to the other 2 if you miss, or cannot do the reload trick it's a worse choice, I would say that the Scimitar is the easiest/safest to use. (go to the Vanguard advice thread for more if you want it confirmed.)

I have tested all this extensively in game, which goes to show you some of the flaws of that weapons comparison chart.

Edit: Claymore uses 2 shots against elites on insanity. (maybe one if headshot I don't know.) Which means the claymore will kill an elite when using the reload trick in 1.25 seconds, the Scimitar for the same elite takes 1.8 seconds and about 2.5 for the Eviscerator. Not using the reload trick and you use 2 seconds with the Claymore. I know this is just a restating of what I've already said, but thought I'd just try to drive it home. 

Ps ROF listed on the Claymore would be valid if it had a clip bigger then 1, but it does not. It's not valid and the ROF becomes recoil animation+reload= ca 2 seconds, or with reload trick, recoil animation +60% of reload about 1.25 seconds. 

Modifié par Dannok1234, 23 février 2010 - 09:31 .

[JaegerBane]

reepneep wrote...

The tempest is easier to use, true, and I'd imagine that most people would be more effective with it. It's more stable, has less recoil, is naturally full auto and doesn't feel the misses as much as the shuriken. I still prefer the shruiken for the reasons already listed: better range, accuracy, and higher burst dps. It still carries plenty of spare ammo, so the tempest's bottomless ammo count isn't really that much of an advantage.

Mag size isn't terribly important to me either, as the shruiken has a large enough magazine to kill most targets if you can shoot straight. Any target it can't kill without reloading, the tempest can't either.

The range argument is still important because the pistol gets it's damage bonus vs armor, while the shruiken works best against shields/barriers. Obviously for extreme ranges, you'd be using the fex, but the predator doesn't actually have that much of a reach advantage on the shruiken.

Arhka is correct. You can make it go cyclic simply by clickspamming. Might be more difficult with a gamepad but with a mouse, its a non-issue.

reepneep, it's a bit of an odd argument to arbitrarily decide certain weapon characteristics just don't factor into the argument - particularly on weapons that have a high rate of fire. The 24 round clip on a Shuriken lasts for five bursts. That does not translate into a particularly long time firing and it doesn't have the punch to justify ignoring ammo amounts.

The point that any target the Shuriken can't kill on a single clip, the Tempest cannot either is just plainly ignorant. The damage differential between a full clip of Tempest ammo and a full clip of Shuriken ammo is 220 points. That's a pretty large amount to simply assume will never be a factor.

The range argument has weight in the sense that if you don't have any weapon that's any good at range, the shuriken will be better than the Tempest isn't exactly a glowing review of the shuriken's abilities.

The Tempest works best at the kind of tasks that an SMG is meant for. The Shuriken works best at the kinds of tasks you really need to be using another weapon for. Useful in the early game when Shep and Co have to fight with a heap of trash, but when the tier 2-3 weapons come into play, it's pointless.

[EverteMax]

Tempest. Because my squad mates are the ones doing precise kills. I see a bunch of enemies and I unload the clip...of course mostly trying to keep the trigger at the same place. But I'm not particular about every bullet making a hit cause...it's not what the tempest does. It does bring down barriers extremely well. Expecting the SMG to make every shot count is a bit far fetched. Work within the confines of the weapon. If you need precise shots, no auto pistol or SMG can fufill the role. But comparing them, the tempest beats the shuriken hands down because of full auto and my point stems from the fact that it doesn't have to be precise.

[reepneep]

JaegerBane wrote...

reepneep, it's a bit of an odd argument to arbitrarily decide certain weapon characteristics just don't factor into the argument - particularly on weapons that have a high rate of fire. The 24 round clip on a Shuriken lasts for five bursts. That does not translate into a particularly long time firing and it doesn't have the punch to justify ignoring ammo amounts.

Eight bursts, but I'm not one to quibble.  It's not about how long you can shoot without having to reload, its about how quickly you kill your target and the shruiken does that about 20% faster if you're a good shot and pulse it.  As for the next bit...

The point that any target the Shuriken can't kill on a single clip, the Tempest cannot either is just plainly ignorant. The damage differential between a full clip of Tempest ammo and a full clip of Shuriken ammo is 220 points. That's a pretty large amount to simply assume will never be a factor.

Like I said, it's not a factor for me.  Both the shruiken and the tempest can kill a trash mob with one magazine, and the shruiken does it faster.  Neither of them can kill an elite with one magazine.  I typically play on hardcore or insanity so this might not be the case on lower levels.

The range argument has weight in the sense that if you don't have any weapon that's any good at range, the shuriken will be better than the Tempest isn't exactly a glowing review of the shuriken's abilities.

The Tempest works best at the kind of tasks that an SMG is meant for. The Shuriken works best at the kinds of tasks you really need to be using another weapon for. Useful in the early game when Shep and Co have to fight with a heap of trash, but when the tier 2-3 weapons come into play, it's pointless.

You're right, it isn't much of a compliment to say one is more accurate than the other since they're both pretty poor.  The shuriken still has a noticeably longer effective range than the tempest and I find that useful.  You may not find this useful, but I do.

What are your alternatives, anyway?  Weapons proficiency training only shows up for roughly the last third of the game.  Soldiers don't get smgs and Infiltrators have got the mantis/viper for long range work  Everyone else is stuck with pistols.  Most of your enemies are going to have shields/barriers rather than or in addition to armor, right?  Either SMG is still a better weapon against such targets than the 'fex (waste of valuable ammo) or the predator (smg still does more damage because of the defense type).  Pistols are really only better against armored targets, or at ranges where the 'fex is your only viable option.

I'm just telling you why I prefer the shruiken.  You're more than welcome to prefer tempest.  I'd say we have both picked the 'better' of the guns since we apparently want different things out of them.  What I dispute is the idea that one is better than the other, they're simply different.

[JaegerBane]

reepneep wrote...
Eight bursts, but I'm not one to quibble.  It's not about how long you can shoot without having to reload, its about how quickly you kill your target and the shruiken does that about 20% faster if you're a good shot and pulse it.  As for the next bit...

I stand corrected, eight it is. Still, whether you're a good shot isn't really relevant to the weapon itself. Any discussion of damage done *assumes* you're hitting with it, so whether you're a good shot or not has little to do with the gun itself.

More to the point, pulsing the Tempest results in a similar level of accuracy. Only the bursts are longer and you can shoot more of them before reload. The full auto remains an option if your opponent is close up. I'm not sure how you've decided that the Shuriken is superior in this particular regard, as using the Tempest in the way you describe ends up doing more damage with less reloads.

Like I said, it's not a factor for me.  Both the shruiken and the tempest can kill a trash mob with one magazine, and the shruiken does it faster.  Neither of them can kill an elite with one magazine.  I typically play on hardcore or insanity so this might not be the case on lower levels.

Whether it is a factor or not to you is irrelevant in actually comparing them. It's just as absurd for me to claim that heavy weapon ammo is not a factor to me and therefore the Cain is a clear winner, despite it only firing a single shot. Arbitrarily ignoring characteristics of the weapon, particularly the cons, doesn't grant any insight. It just means you draw poor conclusions.

You're right, it isn't much of a compliment to say one is more accurate than the other since they're both pretty poor.  The shuriken still has a noticeably longer effective range than the tempest and I find that useful.  You may not find this useful, but I do.

The difference is that the Tempest is actually good at shorter ranges, while the Shuriken struggles. It isn't really rocket science to figure out that out of two guns that are both poor at range, the one that is pretty good at shorter range is obviously the superior one.

What are your alternatives, anyway?  Weapons proficiency training only shows up for roughly the last third of the game.  Soldiers don't get smgs and Infiltrators have got the mantis/viper for long range work  Everyone else is stuck with pistols.  Most of your enemies are going to have shields/barriers rather than or in addition to armor, right?  Either SMG is still a better weapon against such targets than the 'fex (waste of valuable ammo) or the predator (smg still does more damage because of the defense type).  Pistols are really only better against armored targets, or at ranges where the 'fex is your only viable option.

Well, I take a leaf out of your book. Weapons proficiency isn't a factor for me, as I've modded my Vanguard so that he's equpped with Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles from the very start of the game. Therefore what other proficiencies is of no consequnece - I use an SMG when I need an SMG. You use an SMG when you need a battle rifle.

Even setting aside the modding, if I'm playing a New Game+, the assault rifle is with me from the start of the game. This is the problem with trying to claim a particular weapon is good because there's nowt better.

I'm just telling you why I prefer the shruiken.  You're more than welcome to prefer tempest.  I'd say we have both picked the 'better' of the guns since we apparently want different things out of them.  What I dispute is the idea that one is better than the other, they're simply different.

As I said, you seem to want a battle rifle from an SMG. While you're free to decide what you want, the fact a particular gun happens to function as a poor man's alternative to a completely different class of weapon doesn't mean, by definition, that it's superior.

That's logically no different to claiming you prefer a plank of wood to a stack of $100 notes because the plank can keep you afloat. If you need to float, use a boat.

[reepneep]

I'll open this with a prayer.  Dearest lord, please forgive me for this unholy quote tower.

JaegerBane wrote...
I stand corrected, eight it is. Still, whether you're a good shot isn't really relevant to the weapon itself. Any discussion of damage done *assumes* you're hitting with it, so whether you're a good shot or not has little to do with the gun itself.

More to the point, pulsing the Tempest results in a similar level of accuracy. Only the bursts are longer and you can shoot more of them before reload. The full auto remains an option if your opponent is close up. I'm not sure how you've decided that the Shuriken is superior in this particular regard, as using the Tempest in the way you describe ends up doing more damage with less reloads.

Actually, considering that weapon accuracy and recoil are rather large points of differentiation between the two, I'd say player skill is a very important factor.  Because of it's (relative to the tempest) heavy recoil and the necessity of precisely timing the trigger pulls to get the shruiken's maximum rate of fire, it is more dificult to use.  I'm talking about the practical application of the weapon (what you actually do in the game), not dry, out of context laboratory numbers. 

... like these taken from the wiki (assuming they're accurate, they feel about right to me):
Shruiken: 20.5 damage, 700 rpm.  Assuming pulsed properly to 700rpm, fires all 24 rounds in 2.05 seconds for total of 492 damage
Tempest:  14 damage, 925 rpm.  Since locked at 925rpm, fires all 50 rounds in  3.24 seconds for total of 700 damage, damage at 2.05 seconds is 442
 
To give them context:                 
492/442=1.11          
Shruiken dps is 11% higher in labratory conditions, assuming competent user the advantage will be even higher since it is more accurate and thus more likely to hit on a given shot.  492 damage is more than enough to kill mooks at the range you'd be going cyclic given the damage modifiers.  Bottom line is that, assuming a skilled user, the tempest takes longer to kill opponents than the shruiken.

Whether it is a factor or not to you is irrelevant in actually comparing them. It's just as absurd for me to claim that heavy weapon ammo is not a factor to me and therefore the Cain is a clear winner, despite it only firing a single shot. Arbitrarily ignoring characteristics of the weapon, particularly the cons, doesn't grant any insight. It just means you draw poor conclusions.

Actually whether it's a factor for me is ONLY thing that matters when evalutating a weapon's worth to ME.  Whether it's a factor for YOU is the only thing that matters when evaluating a weapon's worth to YOU.  Thats what this whole discussion is about: I think practical DPS, range and accuracy trump ammo capacity and ease of use.  You apparently think the opposite.  This is fine, as the weapons are so close in overall effectiveness that you aren't gimping yourself by taking either of them.

If view the heavy weapons as an 'oh ****!' button, then take the cain and don't sweat the ammo.  If you view them as an integrated part of your fighting style, you won't want the cain.  Its all perspecitive.  All the guns have high and low points, some are much better suited to particular playstiles than others. 

The difference is that the Tempest is actually good at shorter ranges, while the Shuriken struggles. It isn't really rocket science to figure out that out of two guns that are both poor at range, the one that is pretty good at shorter range is obviously the superior one.

Here we go with the perspective again.  Yours is that the shruiken sucks cause it's burst, mine is its better than the tempest if you time your trigger pulls properly (which I do) it causes damage faster both through raw dps and improved accuracy.  I shoot well enough and fight at the proper ranges that I can kill my target with one mag from the shruiken.   Used to it's full potential, the shruiken causes more damage at any range you'd actually be able to use an SMG, even at point blank where you claim it struggles.

Well, I take a leaf out of your book. Weapons proficiency isn't a factor for me, as I've modded my Vanguard so that he's equpped with Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles from the very start of the game. Therefore what other proficiencies is of no consequnece - I use an SMG when I need an SMG. You use an SMG when you need a battle rifle.

Even setting aside the modding, if I'm playing a New Game+, the assault rifle is with me from the start of the game. This is the problem with trying to claim a particular weapon is good because there's nowt better.

As I said, you seem to want a battle rifle from an SMG. While you're free to decide what you want, the fact a particular gun happens to function as a poor man's alternative to a completely different class of weapon doesn't mean, by definition, that it's superior.

That's logically no different to claiming you prefer a plank of wood to a stack of $100 notes because the plank can keep you afloat. If you need to float, use a boat.

Ridiculous hyperbole.

If you want to spin it that way, then yes.  It's a poor man's AR.  Using it instead of an AR allows me to take either a shotgun which is better for cqb, or a sniper rifle which is a much better long range weapon. Why take a good general purpose weapon when I can keep my ok general purpose weapon at take a specialist weapon to compliment it?  Doesn't change the fact that the shruiken has a higher dps and longer effective range than the tempest, while still having enough ammo to kill it's target without reloading.  Any more ammo than is neccessissary to kill it's target is superfluous in my mind.

Modifié par reepneep, 24 février 2010 - 01:34 .

[Athenau]

Ps ROF listed on the Claymore would be valid if it had a clip bigger then 1, but it does not. It's not valid and the ROF becomes recoil animation+reload= ca 2 seconds, or with reload trick, recoil animation +60% of reload about 1.25 seconds

Out of curiosity I tested this with fraps and stepped through with virtual dub. It was 122 frames from muzzle flash to muzzle flash with the claymore, or 2.44 seconds (50 fps capture).



So, no, considerably longer than 2 seconds between shots for the claymore. In fact this number is consistent with what you'd expect from just doing 60/ROF + 1.5 second reload. The claymore has a listed ROF of 64, so that would come out to 2.4375 seconds.

[_Dannok1234]

So it's actually worse then I made it out if you do not do the reload trick then. Good to know.

Edit: Any chance you could time it while doing the reload trick? Would be very interesting to see the speed of that.
If it's 0.94+60% of 1,5 that would turn out to to be 1,84 which would be a worse killing speed on elites and much much worse on normal enemies then the Scimitar and a full second longer then the Evi against normal enemies.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 24 février 2010 - 06:39 .