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[Nikator]

I keep reading that many on this forum believe that in Mass Effect 3, the epic conclusion, the choices you have made during the 2 first games will decide which allies you will have with you in a possible all out war/battle with the reapers, and indeed, many things points towards this direction and it is a very reasonable assumption.

Now, the players who have played as "Paragon" will have the most numbers of allies, considering that if you follow the Paragon path fully, you would end up with (Somewhat);

Rachni (Freed the Queen on Noveria in ME1)

Geth (Legion/Rewriting the Heretics)

Krogan (Convince Mordin to cure the Genophage)

More (?) That I do not remember from the top of my head.

By this logic the Renegade players would be "penalized" (Perhaps!) for not having as many allies in ME3. That is not the point of this thread, however. I am more thinking about how Bioware will "balance" this, and my own take on it.

Now, everyone assumes that you will have the backing of the Council (By "Council" I refer to Asari, Salarian, Turian), Alliance + above mentioned races (If you have made certain descisions). However, let us think a bit of this, and ground it in real world politics/(inter)national relations.

This is ofcourse if the Mass Effect universe takes a realistic/complex approach, or simply allows a Shepard with high enough paragon/renegade score to convince almost anyone to believe/do anything (Which, sadly, seems to be the case in the series. However, one might hope it turns in ME3) thus enabling a happy fluffy ending of huggles.

Krogan - "Citadel". Well, this would pretty much be a repetition of what happened during the Krogan rebellions. Get a bazillion of war-hungry super-soldiers. Even if we do not see this problem in ME3 (I assume that the Krogans would be at the "front", dying in droves, and be pretty happy about it. I mean, they constantly want "worthy opponents", giant sentient spaceships from dark space that shoot red lasers? Fits the bill I think) I think it would be a problem to the ME "Universe/Setting" after the story arc with Commander Shepard.

Krogan - Rachni. First off, how would you make the Rachni and the Krogan fight side by side? The Krogan fought the Rachni, and one might argue that the Rachni are the reason as to why the Krogan got Genophage'd in the first place. True enough, it is almost (Or completely?) established that the Rachni Wars were instigated by the Reapers and their indoctrination, rendering the Rachni as "victims" aswell, however, we must remember that almost none knows about the Reapers, and thus the blame would naturally fall on the Rachni. So, how exactly would Shepard convince the Krogan to fight side by side with the Rachni? My wish is that he wont, he will have to choose, or better yet, start some sort of Council-Krogan-Rachni incident that will seriously hamper the overall war effort against the Reapers, aswell as making him/humanity look "bad".

Geth - Quarian. This is pretty much a no-brainer, I think. I can not really see them fighting together, at all. There are already political factions/opinions in the Quarian Flotilla advocating an all out war against the Geth (Atleast, I got the impression that Admiral Han'Gerrel was not the only one of this opinion). Sure, we have Legion and his talk about Geth "philosophy" and "neutrality" (Heretics are an exception), however, I am not sure that it will be enough to convince the majority of the Quarian population/leadership. Some grudges are simply to old/deep to be resolved with "logic" or rationality.

Now, personally I hope that by being "pure paragon" and always doing the "right" thing (According to the Paragon/Renegade logic atleast, which deserves a thread of its own) you will shoot yourself in the foot, considering that in real life, relationships/grudges between different governments/countries/groups (Let alone completely different species) it seldom is as "simple" to bury a grudge. If it was "simple", we would have already solved our own problems here on earth, right?

Now, I "fear" that, judging by the approach ME1 and ME2 have taken, you will in fact be able to "simply" talk the different factions into cooperation with a high enough paragon/renegade score and the end will be happy and fluffy in which everyone is holding hands against the Reapers. Besides, this would make for a quite uninteresting universe post-Shepard trilogy, considering that everyone would now "get along". Would it not be better to have the Geth as an "eternal enemy", of which we knew little of etc. I mean, consider Mass Effect 4 (If such a game is made). Who will be the villain?

So, to sum it up;

I consider that you should be unable to have all the above mentioned species fighting alongside you, and by taking certain descisions you will not "help" galactic stability, but in fact upset it, possibly leading to pain and suffering for the species you are trying to "recruit". That is, the "paragon" choice, while "noble" according to some, is a bad long-term solution, and carries with it serious political complications that can screw things over in the galaxy, big time. I am, however, afraid that we will see a "everybody becomes friends" conclusion in ME3, due to Shepard being able to convince anyone into doing/thinking just about anything with a high enough paragon/renegade score.

I am writing this to hear what others have to say about this. Anyone agrees with me? Disagrees, if so, why?

[BattleVisor]

Disagree completely. All factions are capable of producing starship armadas.

All factions would unite to fight one common enemy.

Your theory has been debunked.

Modifié par BattleVisor, 22 février 2010 - 01:48 .

[Zulu_DFA]

OP, I agree with you.

[keginkc]

I don't think it's safe to assume that all the paragon decisions in ME1 and 2 will lead to rainbows and unicorns in ME3. My guess is that some of the decisions, paragon and renegade alike, will have unanticipated consequences.

[keginkc]

Double...

Modifié par keginkc, 22 février 2010 - 01:52 .

[Gill Kaiser]

It won't simply be a case of persuading the factions with your high Paragon/Renegade score. There'll also likely be a whole quest chain for each faction to get them to cooperate, at least if it's anything like DA:O.

[stillnotking]

Ah yes, "Allied races".

[Nikator]

BattleVisor wrote...

Disagree completely. All factions are capable of producing starship armadas.

All factions would unite to fight one common enemy.

Your theory has been debunked.

Only because every race has the capability to contribute does not mean that they would do so. There are many instances in our own history where cooperation between different parties against a single common foe has "failed" or run into complications due to old grudges, political unwill etc. And this is considering factions from one and the same species, ****** Sapiens. Imagine completely different species.

You also fail to take into account that for 99% (Or more) of the Galaxy, the Reaper threat does not exist, since they are not aware of it. (I am uncertain as if the Council denies the Reaper threat because they "dont believe in it", or because of politicalreasons, which I like to think, considering that the Council should be a, atleast somewhat, competent political/diplomatic group)

And, its not as much a theory as a "rant", I think. I also think you could add something more constructive than a simple "Your theory has been debunked.", when you dont really offer any explanation as to how it has been debunked?

[Lord Nicholai]

Nikator wrote...

Krogan (Convince Mordin to cure the Genophage)

That wouldn't really do anything. Curing the Genophage could take years, and doing so wont exactly boost the krogan numbers instantly.

Also, when you're renegade you get the reaper technology, which could possibly be more useful than the rachni/geth. However, if you went through ME1 as a renegade, and then didn't keep the reaper tech at the end of ME2, I'm guessing you're essentially screwed.

[Alamar2078]

I suspect that it won't matter if you have those allies or not [in terms of "winning"]. I suspect all your allies will be used for is some sort of delaying tactic / diversion while Shepard and crew are doing something else to save the day. [Think Return of the King]



The only thing allies will be good for [IMHO] will be to divert / delay the reapers. Fewer allies just means substantially higher casualties and more worlds will burn because of it. You are still able to "win" though.



I agree on a few things. Once the Council & Alliance find out that you're building alliances with Krogan, Rachni, Quarian, Geth, etc. they will think you are the worst thing since Saren. [Until the Ah yes, "Reapers" show up]

[Zulu_DFA]

In the war with the Reapers:

More organic troops (krogenz, roaches, ashleys) = more indoctrinated husks = you lose.

One single crusading computer super-mind that thinks it has a soul to lose and Shepard-Commander's perspective is only one that matters and has billions of peripheral hardware units, impossible to hack = you've got a chance.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 février 2010 - 02:11 .

[DaveTheJackal]

History is littered with examples of once feuding enemies uniting to defeat a common foe. E.g. the allies and stalin's russia in WWII.

When the enemies go, however, things don't generally hold together.

EDIT: Bioware, please don't make us choose between allies, based on this sort of simplistic ignorance of political/military pragmatism. We're not in Azeroth any more.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 22 février 2010 - 02:14 .

[kraidy1117]

I love how people think Paragons are pure Paragons..... My character always turns out to be Paragon but I made some Renegade choices. The point is a pure Renegade, pro human will have technology and advanced equipment instead of Allies, where a pure Paragon, Alien loving will have a huge army, but will not have technology and advanced equipment. Then you got people like me who don't give a rats ass about the Moral system and make decisions they would in that situation and what they think is the best.



Anyways even if you did not cure the Genephage, the Krogans will most likely fight since they love to fight, however after the war with the Reapers, the Krogan could become instinct. Same could happen with the Geth/Quiren (spelling) war. If you did not rewrite the Geth and told the Queriens to go to war, the survivng party most likely will join but that could again result in instiction.



The thing is, even tho I destroyed the Collector base, I hava bad feeling that is going to bite us in the ass. Also Legion wants peace, it's the dam Quierens who want to continue this war, if anything having Tali alive in ME3 and loyal will come in handy. If anything you have to look at the Turiens. If you let the concoul die and put humans in leadership, majority of Turriens hate you now, which could cause alot of conflict. The thing is, if Elves and Huamns can fight beside each other in DAO (which they have a bloody past) it is not unlikely to have the Rachni and the Krogan work together.

[DaveTheJackal]

I am pretty sure I didn't get the genophage cured. Wrex was still pretty happy to see me.

[Nikator]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

History is littered with examples of once feuding enemies uniting to defeat a common foe. E.g. the allies and stalin's russia in WWII.

When the enemies go, however, things don't generally hold together.

This is true, but also the opposite. And, yes, as you said, even if a temporary alliance is forged between former "enemies" (Perhaps not outright warfare), the aftermath would leave a shaky political climate at best...

But then again, you need to remember, in your example, there had not been any real conflict between the Allies and Stalins Russia before WWII. In Mass Effect we have the Rachni, who invaded (Or was it merely battled?) the Citadel species, making them leapfrog the Krogans technologically, using them as grunts (See what I did there? ). The aftermath resulted in the Krogan Rebellions (I consider the Krogan Rebellions to be directly linked to the Rachni Wars, seeing as if the Rachni Wars had not taken place, there would be no reason for the Citadel species to leapfrog the Krogan technologically, possibly (Not guaranteed) preventing a Krogan overpopulation, and thus, possibly, the Krogan Rebellions. Also consider that the Reapers and the indoctrination of the Rachni (If this is true, although, as I understand it, it most definately is) is not common knowledge. And I do not think the Rachni Queens testimonial would suffice to convince the Citadel species of otherwise.

Then we have the Quarians and the Geth. Although we can discuss who did wrong and who "fired the first bullet", the fact remains that the Quarians were driven from their homeworld, "banished" into space, and died in the millions. The Geth are (Though in extension, it is the Quarians themselves, true) responsible for the entire situation of the Quarians = No homeworld, no real planetside settlement, viewed as outcasts by the Citadel species and generally distrusted.

I know the following example will be very extreme (And not entirely reflect the true nature of Mass Effect), and I hope none takes offence of it, as I do not intend any. If you do, I will delete it. But imagine a sort of pseudo-historic scenario, in 1944, Aliens attack Earth. How would you imagine the Jews to cooperate with the ****s to battle these Aliens? Sure, the survival of humanity would depend on it, but would it truly be "that simple"? The same goes for **** Germany - Soviet Russia and the Allies. The Japanese and the Chinese aswell...

Just food for thought

[FataliTensei]

I think it should operate like karma



Paragons try to do what's right, they show mercy and attempt to solve problems with diplomacy before violence, they should be rewarded for not giving into the the impules that Renegades do



Renegades act like galactic douchebags, they're cold, brutal, impulsive and don't really seem to care about anyone but their own faction. Renegades make enemies not friends, that's gonna play into ME 3.



Obviously I prefer Paragon to Renegade, except in the right circumstances lol, some people just need an electric welder in their back or to be pushed of an office building

[DaveTheJackal]

Nikator wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...

History is littered with examples of once feuding enemies uniting to defeat a common foe. E.g. the allies and stalin's russia in WWII.

When the enemies go, however, things don't generally hold together.

This is true, but also the opposite. And, yes, as you said, even if a temporary alliance is forged between former "enemies" (Perhaps not outright warfare), the aftermath would leave a shaky political climate at best...

But then again, you need to remember, in your example, there had not been any real conflict between the Allies and Stalins Russia before WWII. In Mass Effect we have the Rachni, who invaded (Or was it merely battled?) the Citadel species, making them leapfrog the Krogans technologically, using them as grunts (See what I did there? ). The aftermath resulted in the Krogan Rebellions (I consider the Krogan Rebellions to be directly linked to the Rachni Wars, seeing as if the Rachni Wars had not taken place, there would be no reason for the Citadel species to leapfrog the Krogan technologically, possibly (Not guaranteed) preventing a Krogan overpopulation, and thus, possibly, the Krogan Rebellions. Also consider that the Reapers and the indoctrination of the Rachni (If this is true, although, as I understand it, it most definately is) is not common knowledge. And I do not think the Rachni Queens testimonial would suffice to convince the Citadel species of otherwise.

Then we have the Quarians and the Geth. Although we can discuss who did wrong and who "fired the first bullet", the fact remains that the Quarians were driven from their homeworld, "banished" into space, and died in the millions. The Geth are (Though in extension, it is the Quarians themselves, true) responsible for the entire situation of the Quarians = No homeworld, no real planetside settlement, viewed as outcasts by the Citadel species and generally distrusted.

I know the following example will be very extreme (And not entirely reflect the true nature of Mass Effect), and I hope none takes offence of it, as I do not intend any. If you do, I will delete it. But imagine a sort of pseudo-historic scenario, in 1944, Aliens attack Earth. How would you imagine the Jews to cooperate with the ****s to battle these Aliens? Sure, the survival of humanity would depend on it, but would it truly be "that simple"? The same goes for **** Germany - Soviet Russia and the Allies. The Japanese and the Chinese aswell...

Just food for thought

Other than the British support of Tsarist Russia. American ideological opposition to Communism etc.

Not to mention Stalin's original alliance with Hitler. That's right, he was on their other side when they started the war and yet, they accepted him with open arms.

The truth is, when it comes to a choice between life and death at the hands of an overwhelming enemy, most choose life.

Besides, I don't see how the Quarians would resent the Geth, they feel responsible for unleishing them on the universe and for how they treated the Geth, more than anything. Once they realise the Geth are OK they wouldn't have any reason to act against them.

The Krogans would have more reason to hate the Salarians, but they don't. Why would they hate the Rachni?

If, in so many situations, pragmatism = survival; childish resentment = extinction/death, which type of thinking is more likely to be present in the non-extinct races of the Mass effect universe, once natural selection has had time to work it's magic?

[Nikator]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Nikator wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...

History is littered with examples of once feuding enemies uniting to defeat a common foe. E.g. the allies and stalin's russia in WWII.

When the enemies go, however, things don't generally hold together.

This is true, but also the opposite. And, yes, as you said, even if a temporary alliance is forged between former "enemies" (Perhaps not outright warfare), the aftermath would leave a shaky political climate at best...

But then again, you need to remember, in your example, there had not been any real conflict between the Allies and Stalins Russia before WWII. In Mass Effect we have the Rachni, who invaded (Or was it merely battled?) the Citadel species, making them leapfrog the Krogans technologically, using them as grunts (See what I did there? ). The aftermath resulted in the Krogan Rebellions (I consider the Krogan Rebellions to be directly linked to the Rachni Wars, seeing as if the Rachni Wars had not taken place, there would be no reason for the Citadel species to leapfrog the Krogan technologically, possibly (Not guaranteed) preventing a Krogan overpopulation, and thus, possibly, the Krogan Rebellions. Also consider that the Reapers and the indoctrination of the Rachni (If this is true, although, as I understand it, it most definately is) is not common knowledge. And I do not think the Rachni Queens testimonial would suffice to convince the Citadel species of otherwise.

Then we have the Quarians and the Geth. Although we can discuss who did wrong and who "fired the first bullet", the fact remains that the Quarians were driven from their homeworld, "banished" into space, and died in the millions. The Geth are (Though in extension, it is the Quarians themselves, true) responsible for the entire situation of the Quarians = No homeworld, no real planetside settlement, viewed as outcasts by the Citadel species and generally distrusted.

I know the following example will be very extreme (And not entirely reflect the true nature of Mass Effect), and I hope none takes offence of it, as I do not intend any. If you do, I will delete it. But imagine a sort of pseudo-historic scenario, in 1944, Aliens attack Earth. How would you imagine the Jews to cooperate with the ****s to battle these Aliens? Sure, the survival of humanity would depend on it, but would it truly be "that simple"? The same goes for **** Germany - Soviet Russia and the Allies. The Japanese and the Chinese aswell...

Just food for thought

Other than the British support of Tsarist Russia. American ideological opposition to Communism etc.

Not to mention Stalin's original alliance with Hitler. That's right, he was on their other side when they started the war and yet, they accepted him with open arms.

The truth is, when it comes to a choice between life and death at the hands of an overwhelming enemy, most choose life.

Besides, I don't see how the Quarians would resent the Geth, they feel responsible for unleishing them on the universe and for how they treated the Geth, more than anything. Once they realise the Geth are OK they wouldn't have any reason to act against them.

The Krogans would have more reason to hate the Salarians, but they don't. Why would they hate the Rachni?

If, in so many situations, pragmatism = survival; childish resentment = extinction/death, which type of thinking is more likely to be present in the non-extinct races of the Mass effect universe, once natural selection has had time to work it's magic?

I am well aware of the British support of Tsarist Russia, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact etc. But there had been no greater battles fought between the Russians and the "Allies" pre-WWII. True enough that the Americans and Soviets disagreed politically, and knew that there would be complications post-WWII, but there were no concrete hostilities between them.

Anyway, we are getting off-topic. What I am trying to say is that political, emotional and personal realities all taken together often make a, "Hey, lets be friends!" scenario unlikely. If not, why is there not world-peace in the real world. Also, you have to remember, the Reapers are still unknown to most of the ME Galaxy. Shepard have not even convinced the council to unite behind him, how then will he convince the other races not only to join him, but also cooperate with their nemesises?

As for the Krogan-Rachni relations, bring Wrex with you to Noveria in ME1 and listen to his reaction if you set the Queen free, and then take into account that Wrex is a rather rational, patient and "smart/wise" Krogan.

As for Quarian-Geth relations, it is a bit trickier since there does seem to be different opinions. But from what I gather, the group of Quarians that feel "friendly" towards the Geth. The admiral *something*'Xen (Voiced by Claudia Black) wishes to study them and bind them to the will of Quarians anew (Atleast that was the impression I got), the QwibQwib Admiral wishes to "avoid" them, and Han'Gerrel wishes to go to war. I still get the feeling that most Quarias agree with Han'Gerrels thought process, or atleast view the Geth as hostile. Take Legion with you to Tali's recruitment mission/Loyalty Mission. The Quarians are more "Geth - Enemy, Shoot!" than "Oh, a Geth, we feel sorry for what we did to you!".

[DaveTheJackal]

Please no ... not Mass Age Origins! I demand a new story, not a rehash.