72 réponses à ce sujet

[Aradace]

justinnstuff wrote...

Aradace wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

Aradace wrote...

If you read the description of the Medical Bay upgrade (yes this is relevant so please bare with me lol.) it hints at why your facial scars get worse or heal etc. It also briefly explains it is due to how your cybernetics interact with aggression or something like that.

My point is this: If you read that description, then the mystery of "Paragon and Renegade" choices becomes perfectly clear. "Renegade" options/points dont "neccesarily" represent "evil". They represent "Agression" Whereas "Paragon" actions/points are less aggressive in nature. IMO I think thats part of the reason why they gave that description. 1.) To explain why your scars get worse depending on your choices and 2.) So that people would stop inherently associating "Paragon" with "good" and "Renegade" with "Evil"

When you look at it from this perspective, the reasoning as to why it's a "Renegade" action and not a "Paragon" action is quite clear

Right, paragon and renegade aren't as black and white as good vs evil. The problem I found, especially after playing through ME1 again, is that renegade in ME2 is sometimes just being a total ass. It's not even being pro-human, it's more like playing Ass Effect. I think the difference between paragon and renegade was better done in ME1.

Not really...I can see where you'd think so though.  Even though some of the actions have you being an "ass" so to speak, it still falls under the "Agressive" vs "Nonagressive" nature.  In it's lack of "black and white" appearance, BioWare has in a way actually made it "black and white"  Because, under all circumstances with "morals" aside, Renegade represents "Agression" and paragon not so much. 

When you look at it like that, your choices seem "different" in a way.  Instead of looking at it from a "Do I want to say this" or "Do I want to say that" perception, I look at it from a "Do I want to be Agressive, or not?"

On that note though, you couldnt pay me to play as a Paragon.  Ive tried and I just cant stand being a freaking "Boy Scout" lol.  I'd rather be an ass to someone and tell them what they "need" to hear, than being "Politically Correct" and sounding like (in the words of Jack) a total ****...

Yeah I see where you're coming from. I still feel that paragon and renegade kinda work differently in ME1 and 2. That probably plays a huge part in the fact that ME1 and 2 had different writers. I figured fighting your way through a mission is aggressive enough. Wouldn't you scar just from all the fight scenes you can't avoid? I wish they would have never added that in. The whole "you look more evil from doing evil acts" fits Star Wars and Fable, but not Mass Effect.

I thought that at first too...However, after reading the medical bay upgrade description, I actually like it because they have a "scientific" explanation for it.

[babylonfreak]

Paragon: What Would Picard Do? Picard would never stab someone in the back, even if it made a later fight more difficult. In Grunt's words: "I'd never stab you in the back, Shepard. Warriors like you and me? Straight to the face."

Renegade. What would Dirty Harry do? Yeah totally quip a one-liner and stab the guy.

That said, sniping the head off a mech... how the f is that renegade?... but otherwise, yeah.

Modifié par babylonfreak, 22 février 2010 - 05:25 .

[Aradace]

babylonfreak wrote...

Paragon: What Would Picard Do? Picard would never stab someone in the back, even if it made a later fight more difficult. In Grunt's words: "I'd never stab you in the back, Shepard. Warriors like you and me? Straight to the face."

Renegade. What would Dirty Harry do? Yeah totally quip a one-liner and stab the guy.

That said, sniping the head off a mech... how the f is that renegade?... but otherwise, yeah.

Because sniping the head off is considered an "Agressive" action.  Seriously, read the explanation I just gave lol.

[Kinvarus]

babylonfreak wrote...
That said, sniping the head off a mech... how the f is that renegade?... but otherwise, yeah.

I was thinking the exact same thing, if it was a merc I could understand it...but a mech come on....

[Aradace]

raziel417 wrote...

babylonfreak wrote...
That said, sniping the head off a mech... how the f is that renegade?... but otherwise, yeah.

I was thinking the exact same thing, if it was a merc I could understand it...but a mech come on....

I must be the only person that gets it lol...Why are you people making this so black and white when it's not...READ THE GOD DAMNED DESCRIPTION and if it still doesnt clear things up for you, then I feel sorry for you for not having the brain capacity to understand something that falls into a gray area.

[Anzer]

Aradace wrote...

I must be the only person that gets it lol...Why are you people making this so black and white when it's not...READ THE GOD DAMNED DESCRIPTION and if it still doesnt clear things up for you, then I feel sorry for you for not having the brain capacity to understand something that falls into a gray area.

People tend to gloss over information that negates their opinons / preconceived notions. This is true in all forms of debates and conversations, but most largely apparent on the internet, where anonymity is the norm.

[Aradace]

Zalekanzer wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I must be the only person that gets it lol...Why are you people making this so black and white when it's not...READ THE GOD DAMNED DESCRIPTION and if it still doesnt clear things up for you, then I feel sorry for you for not having the brain capacity to understand something that falls into a gray area.

People tend to gloss over information that negates their opinons / preconceived notions. This is true in all forms of debates and conversations, but most largely apparent on the internet, where anonymity is the norm.

That and if people werent so "Zomg I have hurry to teh next partz so I can shootz some more thingz!!!" They might find that they have time to actually read something worth reading and actually explains something to them and/or answers some questions they may have.  The same applies to the players who never read the codex entries and then have the gall to ask "What does this do?" or "Why is this like this?" My answer: Well, if you sodding read a codex entry every once in a while you might find you dont have to ask so many stupid F***ing questions lol.

And for those thinking it, yes, I AM getting tons of renegade points for this post because of the agressive nature of it lol. 

[vigna]

"Falcon Punch!" is also too funny to pass up as a Paragon.

[vigna]

Why is punching the monkey not renegade???

[khevan]

Aradace wrote...

I must be the only person that gets it lol...Why are you people making this so black and white when it's not...READ THE GOD DAMNED DESCRIPTION and if it still doesnt clear things up for you, then I feel sorry for you for not having the brain capacity to understand something that falls into a gray area.

I understand what you wrote earlier.  That theory makes sense.  However, sniping the mech's head off shouldn't be a part of the renegade/paragon system.  It makes no sense.  In any combat situation, I've sniped many, many mechs heads off and never got a single renegade point for it.  THAT's the confusion with this interrupt, because it's an action we as players take multiple times throughout the game, and only in this one instance, during a cutscene, does it give renegade points.

If headshots were inherently a renegade action, every infiltrator (and most soldiers, and quite a few other classes) would have full renegade bars before the Reaper IFF mission, no matter what conversation choices or interrupts they do. 

So all the blustering and cursing and insults you want to throw out makes no difference, because this interrupt doesn't make sense, even in the context you list.

[max_ai]

raziel417 wrote...

babylonfreak wrote...
That said, sniping the head off a mech... how the f is that renegade?... but otherwise, yeah.

I was thinking the exact same thing, if it was a merc I could understand it...but a mech come on....

Besides the fact that it is defined as an "Aggressive action", shooting with someone else's gun is definitely Renegade, by definition that is.

[Aradace]

khevan wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I must be the only person that gets it lol...Why are you people making this so black and white when it's not...READ THE GOD DAMNED DESCRIPTION and if it still doesnt clear things up for you, then I feel sorry for you for not having the brain capacity to understand something that falls into a gray area.

I understand what you wrote earlier.  That theory makes sense.  However, sniping the mech's head off shouldn't be a part of the renegade/paragon system.  It makes no sense.  In any combat situation, I've sniped many, many mechs heads off and never got a single renegade point for it.  THAT's the confusion with this interrupt, because it's an action we as players take multiple times throughout the game, and only in this one instance, during a cutscene, does it give renegade points.

If headshots were inherently a renegade action, every infiltrator (and most soldiers, and quite a few other classes) would have full renegade bars before the Reaper IFF mission, no matter what conversation choices or interrupts they do. 

So all the blustering and cursing and insults you want to throw out makes no difference, because this interrupt doesn't make sense, even in the context you list.

Because the game mechanic in general and CS mechanic cant be ran on the same principle.  Otherwise, you'd be full renegade during the first few missions.  My point is that everyone thinks the system is "good/evil" based system when its not...Its aggression vs nonaggression

[NICKjnp]

justinnstuff wrote...

I'll take the renegade points during scenes like this. It's always nice to have the ship with less armor. My favorite renegade interrupt is during Miranda's mission where you break the guys neck and kill half his crew before the fight starts. Even for a paragon, that's always worth it.

Yeah the paragon ones are a little too tame compared the the renegade ones.  The only paragon one I like is where you can push over the volus and threaten the CSec officer on the Citadel.

[NICKjnp]

max_ai wrote...

raziel417 wrote...

babylonfreak wrote...
That said, sniping the head off a mech... how the f is that renegade?... but otherwise, yeah.

I was thinking the exact same thing, if it was a merc I could understand it...but a mech come on....

Besides the fact that it is defined as an "Aggressive action", shooting with someone else's gun is definitely Renegade, by definition that is.

Then you should have been full of renegade points by the end of the first level... considering you "pick up" a pistol instead of start with one.

[khevan]

Aradace wrote...

khevan wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I must be the only person that gets it lol...Why are you people making this so black and white when it's not...READ THE GOD DAMNED DESCRIPTION and if it still doesnt clear things up for you, then I feel sorry for you for not having the brain capacity to understand something that falls into a gray area.

I understand what you wrote earlier.  That theory makes sense.  However, sniping the mech's head off shouldn't be a part of the renegade/paragon system.  It makes no sense.  In any combat situation, I've sniped many, many mechs heads off and never got a single renegade point for it.  THAT's the confusion with this interrupt, because it's an action we as players take multiple times throughout the game, and only in this one instance, during a cutscene, does it give renegade points.

If headshots were inherently a renegade action, every infiltrator (and most soldiers, and quite a few other classes) would have full renegade bars before the Reaper IFF mission, no matter what conversation choices or interrupts they do. 

So all the blustering and cursing and insults you want to throw out makes no difference, because this interrupt doesn't make sense, even in the context you list.

Because the game mechanic in general and CS mechanic cant be ran on the same principle.  Otherwise, you'd be full renegade during the first few missions.  My point is that everyone thinks the system is "good/evil" based system when its not...Its aggression vs nonaggression

I already posted that I read and understood your point about renegade vs paragon being agression vs. nonagression.  I also said that it makes sense.  However, the post I quoted above was in response to someone asking why the sniper shot in Garrus' recruitment mission gave renegade points.  And you decided to, to put it bluntly, come across as an a55, calling people stupid, etc.  If you can't understand from my last post to you why the sniper interrupt is stupid, and doesn't make sense, I don't know what else to say to you.  I agree that the dynamic you described makes sense, moreso than good/evil.  However, this interrupt is stupid and makes no sense.  It should give neither renegade OR paragon points.

[Aradace]

NICKjnp wrote...

max_ai wrote...

raziel417 wrote...

babylonfreak wrote...
That said, sniping the head off a mech... how the f is that renegade?... but otherwise, yeah.

I was thinking the exact same thing, if it was a merc I could understand it...but a mech come on....

Besides the fact that it is defined as an "Aggressive action", shooting with someone else's gun is definitely Renegade, by definition that is.

Then you should have been full of renegade points by the end of the first level... considering you "pick up" a pistol instead of start with one.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo because picking up an object isnt considered an aggressive action...You know what? I give up....It's like trying to explain String Theory to a bunch of cave men lol.

[Aradace]

khevan wrote...

Aradace wrote...

khevan wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I must be the only person that gets it lol...Why are you people making this so black and white when it's not...READ THE GOD DAMNED DESCRIPTION and if it still doesnt clear things up for you, then I feel sorry for you for not having the brain capacity to understand something that falls into a gray area.

I understand what you wrote earlier.  That theory makes sense.  However, sniping the mech's head off shouldn't be a part of the renegade/paragon system.  It makes no sense.  In any combat situation, I've sniped many, many mechs heads off and never got a single renegade point for it.  THAT's the confusion with this interrupt, because it's an action we as players take multiple times throughout the game, and only in this one instance, during a cutscene, does it give renegade points.

If headshots were inherently a renegade action, every infiltrator (and most soldiers, and quite a few other classes) would have full renegade bars before the Reaper IFF mission, no matter what conversation choices or interrupts they do. 

So all the blustering and cursing and insults you want to throw out makes no difference, because this interrupt doesn't make sense, even in the context you list.

Because the game mechanic in general and CS mechanic cant be ran on the same principle.  Otherwise, you'd be full renegade during the first few missions.  My point is that everyone thinks the system is "good/evil" based system when its not...Its aggression vs nonaggression

I already posted that I read and understood your point about renegade vs paragon being agression vs. nonagression.  I also said that it makes sense.  However, the post I quoted above was in response to someone asking why the sniper shot in Garrus' recruitment mission gave renegade points.  And you decided to, to put it bluntly, come across as an a55, calling people stupid, etc.  If you can't understand from my last post to you why the sniper interrupt is stupid, and doesn't make sense, I don't know what else to say to you.  I agree that the dynamic you described makes sense, moreso than good/evil.  However, this interrupt is stupid and makes no sense.  It should give neither renegade OR paragon points.

Again, it makes perfect sense but it's like I said: Its like trying to explain String Theory to a bunch of cave men...Just because your mind cant wrap around the concept doesnt make it "bad story telling" or whatnot.  It just means that you dont get it.

[khevan]

Aradace wrote...

khevan wrote...

Aradace wrote...

khevan wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I must be the only person that gets it lol...Why are you people making this so black and white when it's not...READ THE GOD DAMNED DESCRIPTION and if it still doesnt clear things up for you, then I feel sorry for you for not having the brain capacity to understand something that falls into a gray area.

I understand what you wrote earlier.  That theory makes sense.  However, sniping the mech's head off shouldn't be a part of the renegade/paragon system.  It makes no sense.  In any combat situation, I've sniped many, many mechs heads off and never got a single renegade point for it.  THAT's the confusion with this interrupt, because it's an action we as players take multiple times throughout the game, and only in this one instance, during a cutscene, does it give renegade points.

If headshots were inherently a renegade action, every infiltrator (and most soldiers, and quite a few other classes) would have full renegade bars before the Reaper IFF mission, no matter what conversation choices or interrupts they do. 

So all the blustering and cursing and insults you want to throw out makes no difference, because this interrupt doesn't make sense, even in the context you list.

Because the game mechanic in general and CS mechanic cant be ran on the same principle.  Otherwise, you'd be full renegade during the first few missions.  My point is that everyone thinks the system is "good/evil" based system when its not...Its aggression vs nonaggression

I already posted that I read and understood your point about renegade vs paragon being agression vs. nonagression.  I also said that it makes sense.  However, the post I quoted above was in response to someone asking why the sniper shot in Garrus' recruitment mission gave renegade points.  And you decided to, to put it bluntly, come across as an a55, calling people stupid, etc.  If you can't understand from my last post to you why the sniper interrupt is stupid, and doesn't make sense, I don't know what else to say to you.  I agree that the dynamic you described makes sense, moreso than good/evil.  However, this interrupt is stupid and makes no sense.  It should give neither renegade OR paragon points.

Again, it makes perfect sense but it's like I said: Its like trying to explain String Theory to a bunch of cave men...Just because your mind cant wrap around the concept doesnt make it "bad story telling" or whatnot.  It just means that you dont get it.

Ok, now you're either being a troll or you're simply less intelligent than I originally gave you credit for.

I've posted twice now that I understood your point.  The sniper shot is an aggressive action, and therefore, by your theory, it should be a renegade action.  However, this particular point falls apart when you take the rest of the game into account.  A sniper shot in gameplay does not give you renegade points, therefore, a sniper shot in a cutscene should not give you renegade points.  It's inconsistant, and therefore does not make sense in the context of the larger game.  If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say.

[Aradace]

I DO understand that and I already explained that to you...The overall game mechanic, and the CS mechanic CANNOT be held in the same standard. Otherwise, you have a full renegade meter by the end of the first few missions. Again, for the second time...Is your explanation for that.

[Jimbe2693]

"Renegade points are gained for apathetic and ruthless actions"



"Paragon points are gained for compassionate and heroic actions."

[Lonely_Fat_Guy]

raziel417 wrote...

babylonfreak wrote...
That said, sniping the head off a mech... how the f is that renegade?... but otherwise, yeah.

I was thinking the exact same thing, if it was a merc I could understand it...but a mech come on....

MECHS HAVE FEEELINGS TOOOOO!

[Nautica773]

Aradace wrote...
I must be the only person that gets it lol...Why are you people making this so black and white when it's not...READ THE GOD DAMNED DESCRIPTION and if it still doesnt clear things up for you, then I feel sorry for you for not having the brain capacity to understand something that falls into a gray area.

Cute idea, but it's not accurate. Or, at least, it's not consistent. On Legion's loyalty mission, blowing up the heretic Geth is considered a paragon option because it doesn't involve "brainwashing" them (read: impinging on their freedom or whatever).

Call me crazy, but blowing up things is more aggressive than reprogramming them.

[Aradace]

Actually, I have a better explanation that actually DOES explain this whole scenario.



"Sniping" Mechs etc doesnt give you "renegade points" in the normal game because while an "Agressive" action. It is not random. Think of it in this light: Killing a horde or sniping a horde of mech/mercs etc. isnt random. Why? because you see the mech and their intent is to engage you the moment they see you or whatnot. Where as in a CS, an action like this WOULD net you renegade points etc. because in essence it is considered not only "agressive" but a "random act of agression" perhaps the system can be further explained by that means. On the opposite end of the spectrum, the Paragon actions can be more akin to "Random acts of Kindness" to a degree...Even pushing the volus down because in the end it wasnt a "malicious" but rather a gentle nudge.

[khevan]

Aradace wrote...

I DO understand that and I already explained that to you...The overall game mechanic, and the CS mechanic CANNOT be held in the same standard. Otherwise, you have a full renegade meter by the end of the first few missions. Again, for the second time...Is your explanation for that.

If you understand that they're inconsistant, then what's the harm in saying that it makes no sense since it's inconsistant?  My preference would be for a different action, or comment, or whatever, to have replaced that interrupt.  I think Cutscene and gameplay mechanics should be consistant with each other, to the point that an action you can take in gameplay has the exact same effect if performed in cutscenes, depending on context.  Punching the reporter on the citadel = renegade action, because it's an overly aggressive action when aggression isn't absolutely needed, while meleeing a geth in the face = neither renegade or paragon, because it's an aggressive action when aggression is absolutely needed (life or death combat.)

The sniper shot doesn't meet the "context" test, because you're still in a life or death situation, and therefore the aggressive nature of the act is required.


Bottom line, this particular interrupt is inconsistent, doesn't make sense, and is therefore stupid and shouldn't be in the game.

[Aradace]

Nautica773 wrote...

Aradace wrote...
I must be the only person that gets it lol...Why are you people making this so black and white when it's not...READ THE GOD DAMNED DESCRIPTION and if it still doesnt clear things up for you, then I feel sorry for you for not having the brain capacity to understand something that falls into a gray area.

Cute idea, but it's not accurate. Or, at least, it's not consistent. On Legion's loyalty mission, blowing up the heretic Geth is considered a paragon option because it doesn't involve "brainwashing" them (read: impinging on their freedom or whatever).

Call me crazy, but blowing up things is more aggressive than reprogramming them.

Actually reprogramming them gets you paragon...and blowing them up gets you renegade....You got it backward.  99% of your dialog choices that are in the top corner are Paragon choices.  While the ones in the bottom right are Renegade choices.  Dunno where you got the idea that rewritting was a "renegade" action but it sure as hell shows up as paragon everytime I do it.