109 réponses à ce sujet

[Aradace]

Actually, if you listen to the dialog just after you recruit Mordin Shepard claims that they "got some samples" for him to study in one of the colonies. So, Im assuming thats where it came from. Yes, there were no seeker swarms there but that one line is BW's way of making any "Zomg there's a plot hole" claims invalid because all they have to do is invoke that one line of dialog to "technically" prove any of us wrong.

[TheLostGenius]

 They chose Mordin because he is essentially a "scientific genius" by the sounds of it he is the salarian responsible for inventing the genophage.

[NICKjnp]

T0paze wrote...

Before Shepard goes to Horizon, Mordin informs him that he has develped a protective device against seeker swarms. We see how he runs some experiments using an individual seeker insect. The question is, where did he get it?

Also, if that's not a genuine seeker insect, but rather some experimental analogue, then how did Mordin know what kind of technology those swarms employ?

Also, if those insects were available, then why was Mordin needed? Sure, he's good, but I doubt that whole research teams with sophisticated equipment and very generous funding couldn't do something that a retired Salarian professor did alone in a makeshift laboratory within what appears to be a rather short period of time.

Space Magic

[cronshaw8]

Where did Mordin get a seeker insect?


He pulled it out of his cloaca

[Jeremy Winston]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

No.. I think it is a plot hole... it could have been solved with one line of dialog or a seeker in the cage during the conversations with Mordin. But you really have to stretch to determine how he made one well enough to know exactly how they targeted you.

So, either plot hole or bad story telling.

When Mordin is on the ship for the first time, Shepard tells him THEY have samples! What more information do you need. The point that he has samples, there Veetors information from his omi tool and the Seeker bugs are robots Mordin making them logical and not a plothole.

Plothole means something that was not explained well or not at all. There is strong evidence that proves Mordin made it or it was given to him from Cerberus. TIM already knew it was the Collectors anyways. It's not a plothole, it's not bad writing.

"Not explained well."  Fits nicely.

If any one has a convenient save at this point, I'd like to see the quote involving "Samples."

Recruit Mordin, Jacob and Shepard tell him they have samples and TIM even says that they need Mordin to do reserch on the Collectors. That implies that Cerberus has stuff like the seeker bug. It's not a plothole, I don't want to sound rude but you are acting like some of these morons on this board.

"WHAHAHA I don't understand the story so it's filled with plotholes!" There is only a few plotholes and they are minor.

No need to be obnoxious about it.  Feel free to not post.

I asked for a quote.  Not your understanding of what someone said or didn't say.

Yes, he's needed to do research on the collectors.  For the story it is obviously necessary for him to succeed.  They made a huge point about there being absolutely nothing out of the ordinary at any of the colonies that went missing.  Nothing.

Therefore, all you have in your favor is the limited argument that Veetor's data was enough to create a fully functional and operating seeker.  Is that what you're suggesting? 

Even if Shepard DID say they had samples of the actual seekers, where did he get them from?

[Dark_Caduceus]

cronshaw8 wrote...

Where did Mordin get a seeker insect?


He pulled it out of his cloaca

(PAUSE)... Yes!

[kraidy1117]

TheLostGenius wrote...

 They chose Mordin because he is essentially a "scientific genius" by the sounds of it he is the salarian responsible for inventing the genophage.

No he modified it, tho Mordin said it is alot harder then creating a new virus because alot of stuff can happen. The point is Mordin is as of that time period one of the most smartest people in the galaxey and has worked with Collector tech. So him making a seeker bug is not far fetched or stupid.

[Llandaryn]

Where did Mordin get a seeker insect?

From Seeker Insect Breeders Anonymous.

Otherwise known as SIBA.

They're a small group, but their numbers grow daily.

[Jeremy Winston]

<--- Card carrying member.

[kraidy1117]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

No.. I think it is a plot hole... it could have been solved with one line of dialog or a seeker in the cage during the conversations with Mordin. But you really have to stretch to determine how he made one well enough to know exactly how they targeted you.

So, either plot hole or bad story telling.

When Mordin is on the ship for the first time, Shepard tells him THEY have samples! What more information do you need. The point that he has samples, there Veetors information from his omi tool and the Seeker bugs are robots Mordin making them logical and not a plothole.

Plothole means something that was not explained well or not at all. There is strong evidence that proves Mordin made it or it was given to him from Cerberus. TIM already knew it was the Collectors anyways. It's not a plothole, it's not bad writing.

"Not explained well."  Fits nicely.

If any one has a convenient save at this point, I'd like to see the quote involving "Samples."

Recruit Mordin, Jacob and Shepard tell him they have samples and TIM even says that they need Mordin to do reserch on the Collectors. That implies that Cerberus has stuff like the seeker bug. It's not a plothole, I don't want to sound rude but you are acting like some of these morons on this board.

"WHAHAHA I don't understand the story so it's filled with plotholes!" There is only a few plotholes and they are minor.

No need to be obnoxious about it.  Feel free to not post.

I asked for a quote.  Not your understanding of what someone said or didn't say.

Yes, he's needed to do research on the collectors.  For the story it is obviously necessary for him to succeed.  They made a huge point about there being absolutely nothing out of the ordinary at any of the colonies that went missing.  Nothing.

Therefore, all you have in your favor is the limited argument that Veetor's data was enough to create a fully functional and operating seeker.  Is that what you're suggesting? 

Even if Shepard DID say they had samples of the actual seekers, where did he get them from?

We have samples which TIM could easly get since he already had a feeling it was the Collectors and they even had a run in two years ago. Samples and Veetors datatool that gives information on dark energy and more on the Skker swarms is enough for a person like Mordin to create a NEW seeker bug, hell Mordin could have cloned one from the samples, since it is poseable. There is too much evidence and only people who are too stupid, too stuborn or a mix of both turn there nose in the air when they don't aggre with the evidence, which there is plentfiul. Yu, the OP and some other people want it to be a plothole, but by the way alot of people have came up with the same conclusion I have and some have even aggreaded proves it is not a plothole. I will give you a perfect example of a plothole. What the hell was Saren doing while he was sitting on Illos waiting for Shepard when he was on a side quest feast, or how about my fav one. Liara should have died from the lack of water and food if you did not recruit her right away, but she is alive and healthy. ME had alot more plotholes then ME2, and this "plothole" is not a plothole because of the evidence there is.

Remember, Collectors give advanced technology for deals, whos to say TIM did make a deal with the Collectors to get a seeker bug?

[medlish]

klossen4 wrote...

plothole

to use your logic, your mother is also a plothole to me, because you never told me about her.

[Jeremy Winston]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

No.. I think it is a plot hole... it could have been solved with one line of dialog or a seeker in the cage during the conversations with Mordin. But you really have to stretch to determine how he made one well enough to know exactly how they targeted you.

So, either plot hole or bad story telling.

When Mordin is on the ship for the first time, Shepard tells him THEY have samples! What more information do you need. The point that he has samples, there Veetors information from his omi tool and the Seeker bugs are robots Mordin making them logical and not a plothole.

Plothole means something that was not explained well or not at all. There is strong evidence that proves Mordin made it or it was given to him from Cerberus. TIM already knew it was the Collectors anyways. It's not a plothole, it's not bad writing.

"Not explained well."  Fits nicely.

If any one has a convenient save at this point, I'd like to see the quote involving "Samples."

Recruit Mordin, Jacob and Shepard tell him they have samples and TIM even says that they need Mordin to do reserch on the Collectors. That implies that Cerberus has stuff like the seeker bug. It's not a plothole, I don't want to sound rude but you are acting like some of these morons on this board.

"WHAHAHA I don't understand the story so it's filled with plotholes!" There is only a few plotholes and they are minor.

No need to be obnoxious about it.  Feel free to not post.

I asked for a quote.  Not your understanding of what someone said or didn't say.

Yes, he's needed to do research on the collectors.  For the story it is obviously necessary for him to succeed.  They made a huge point about there being absolutely nothing out of the ordinary at any of the colonies that went missing.  Nothing.

Therefore, all you have in your favor is the limited argument that Veetor's data was enough to create a fully functional and operating seeker.  Is that what you're suggesting? 

Even if Shepard DID say they had samples of the actual seekers, where did he get them from?

We have samples which TIM could easly get since he already had a feeling it was the Collectors and they even had a run in two years ago. Samples and Veetors datatool that gives information on dark energy and more on the Skker swarms is enough for a person like Mordin to create a NEW seeker bug, hell Mordin could have cloned one from the samples, since it is poseable. There is too much evidence and only people who are too stupid, too stuborn or a mix of both turn there nose in the air when they don't aggre with the evidence, which there is plentfiul. Yu, the OP and some other people want it to be a plothole, but by the way alot of people have came up with the same conclusion I have and some have even aggreaded proves it is not a plothole. I will give you a perfect example of a plothole. What the hell was Saren doing while he was sitting on Illos waiting for Shepard when he was on a side quest feast, or how about my fav one. Liara should have died from the lack of water and food if you did not recruit her right away, but she is alive and healthy. ME had alot more plotholes then ME2, and this "plothole" is not a plothole because of the evidence there is.

Remember, Collectors give advanced technology for deals, whos to say TIM did make a deal with the Collectors to get a seeker bug?

I'm sorry.. this is all very nice conjecture, but you're simply making stuff up to fill the plot hole.  I'm not saying that what you are suggesting isn't plausible.  It simply requires far too much "supplying your own information" to indicate that it was explained or provided for.

If TIM provided the seekers, the proper mechanism would be for it to be mentioned that he, somehow, had it... even if he wouldn't explain why.  Problem solved.  But they didn't give that information.

You might as well conjecture that a seeker was stuck, frozen, in orbit and was picked up by the Normandy.  (How lucky was that!)  You have just as much evidence for that as for your idea.  I mean, don't forget the possibility that it was provided to Mordin by the Spaghetti Monster!

In summary, you are simply making up possible ways for it to happen.  None of it was explained in the story.

EDIT: Correcting an embarrassingly large number of typos.

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 22 février 2010 - 06:29 .

[kraidy1117]

medlish wrote...

klossen4 wrote...

plothole

to use your logic, your mother is also a plothole to me, because you never told me about her.

This just made my day.

[Nautica773]

A biotic did it.

[kraidy1117]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

No.. I think it is a plot hole... it could have been solved with one line of dialog or a seeker in the cage during the conversations with Mordin. But you really have to stretch to determine how he made one well enough to know exactly how they targeted you.

So, either plot hole or bad story telling.

When Mordin is on the ship for the first time, Shepard tells him THEY have samples! What more information do you need. The point that he has samples, there Veetors information from his omi tool and the Seeker bugs are robots Mordin making them logical and not a plothole.

Plothole means something that was not explained well or not at all. There is strong evidence that proves Mordin made it or it was given to him from Cerberus. TIM already knew it was the Collectors anyways. It's not a plothole, it's not bad writing.

"Not explained well."  Fits nicely.

If any one has a convenient save at this point, I'd like to see the quote involving "Samples."

Recruit Mordin, Jacob and Shepard tell him they have samples and TIM even says that they need Mordin to do reserch on the Collectors. That implies that Cerberus has stuff like the seeker bug. It's not a plothole, I don't want to sound rude but you are acting like some of these morons on this board.

"WHAHAHA I don't understand the story so it's filled with plotholes!" There is only a few plotholes and they are minor.

No need to be obnoxious about it.  Feel free to not post.

I asked for a quote.  Not your understanding of what someone said or didn't say.

Yes, he's needed to do research on the collectors.  For the story it is obviously necessary for him to succeed.  They made a huge point about there being absolutely nothing out of the ordinary at any of the colonies that went missing.  Nothing.

Therefore, all you have in your favor is the limited argument that Veetor's data was enough to create a fully functional and operating seeker.  Is that what you're suggesting? 

Even if Shepard DID say they had samples of the actual seekers, where did he get them from?

We have samples which TIM could easly get since he already had a feeling it was the Collectors and they even had a run in two years ago. Samples and Veetors datatool that gives information on dark energy and more on the Skker swarms is enough for a person like Mordin to create a NEW seeker bug, hell Mordin could have cloned one from the samples, since it is poseable. There is too much evidence and only people who are too stupid, too stuborn or a mix of both turn there nose in the air when they don't aggre with the evidence, which there is plentfiul. Yu, the OP and some other people want it to be a plothole, but by the way alot of people have came up with the same conclusion I have and some have even aggreaded proves it is not a plothole. I will give you a perfect example of a plothole. What the hell was Saren doing while he was sitting on Illos waiting for Shepard when he was on a side quest feast, or how about my fav one. Liara should have died from the lack of water and food if you did not recruit her right away, but she is alive and healthy. ME had alot more plotholes then ME2, and this "plothole" is not a plothole because of the evidence there is.

Remember, Collectors give advanced technology for deals, whos to say TIM did make a deal with the Collectors to get a seeker bug?

I'm sorry.. this is all very nice conjecture, but you're simply making stuff up to fill the plot hole.  I'm not saying that what you are suggesting isn't plausible.  It simply requires far too much "supplying your own information" to indicate that it was explained for provided for.

If TIM provided the seekers, the proper mechanism would be for it to be mentioned that he, somehow, had it... even if he wouldn't explain why.  Problem solved.  But they didn't give that information.

You might as well conjecture that a seeker was stuck, frozen, in orbit and was picked up by the Normandy.  (How lucky was that!)  You have just as much evidence for that as your idea as the possibility that it was provided to Mordin by the Spaghetti Monster.

In summary, you are simply making up possible ways for it to happen.  None of it was explained in the story.

No I am not. A real plothole is something that is NOT explained. When you first recruit Mordin Shepard states that they have supplies. Who cares where they got it from? It's Cerberus for crying out loud. The point is that Mordin has a high tech lab, Collector samples and data from Veetors Omi tool. That right there brings upmany ways Mordin got the seeker bug. He made it, cloned it from tissue samples or got it in the box. The samples proves those, which ones are right? No one knows, but it proves that Mordin did not make space magic.Every story has small things like this that are explained to extent, it might not be that detailed but there is still evidence, which means it is not a plothole.

Replay ME and you will find that there is more plotholes in ME then there is in ME2. The only true plotholes in this game are

How the hell would the Collectors attack Earth
How the hell was MIranada walking around in outer space with a oxy mask....
Why Shepard took his whole squad with him in the shuttle

Thats the only true plotholes, all these other plotholes that people say are not because they explained vaguely, but still explained.

[Weskerr]

It seems even more implausible when Mordin is the last character you recruit before the Horizon mission.

[Jazharah]

Aradace wrote...

Actually, if you listen to the dialog just after you recruit Mordin Shepard claims that they "got some samples" for him to study in one of the colonies. So, Im assuming thats where it came from. Yes, there were no seeker swarms there but that one line is BW's way of making any "Zomg there's a plot hole" claims invalid because all they have to do is invoke that one line of dialog to "technically" prove any of us wrong.

This.

I thought it was a plothole too, until I played through it again and came across the mention of the fact they collected samples.

[Nautica773]

kraidy1117 wrote...

No I am not. A real plothole is something that is NOT explained. When you first recruit Mordin Shepard states that they have supplies. Who cares where they got it from? It's Cerberus for crying out loud. The point is that Mordin has a high tech lab, Collector samples and data from Veetors Omi tool. That right there brings upmany ways Mordin got the seeker bug. He made it, cloned it from tissue samples or got it in the box. The samples proves those, which ones are right? No one knows, but it proves that Mordin did not make space magic.Every story has small things like this that are explained to extent, it might not be that detailed but there is still evidence, which means it is not a plothole.

At the very least, it's inconsistent. We are told that colonists are disappearing without a trace, except somehow Mordin ends up with a seeker bug, there'd be a huge crater from when the Collector Ship touched down, and for some reason the Collectors failed to pick up Ashley/Kaiden even though they were a couple of yards away from some other poor Horizon bastard we see later past the Omega 4 relay, apparently Veetor's colony was the only one with video cameras in it and no one wanted to share those videos with the Alliance or Citadel Council...

There's a lot of little sloppy things with the plot of Mass Effect 2. It's a little sad, considering how little narrative there is, but there's nothing BioWare can or will do about it now.

[cronshaw8]

holy quote button batman!

[Valikdu]

He just found some random insect and said, "YOU ARE THE TRUE SEEKER!"

[Jeremy Winston]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

I'm sorry.. this is all very nice conjecture, but you're simply making stuff up to fill the plot hole.  I'm not saying that what you are suggesting isn't plausible.  It simply requires far too much "supplying your own information" to indicate that it was explained for provided for.

If TIM provided the seekers, the proper mechanism would be for it to be mentioned that he, somehow, had it... even if he wouldn't explain why.  Problem solved.  But they didn't give that information.

You might as well conjecture that a seeker was stuck, frozen, in orbit and was picked up by the Normandy.  (How lucky was that!)  You have just as much evidence for that as your idea as the possibility that it was provided to Mordin by the Spaghetti Monster.

In summary, you are simply making up possible ways for it to happen.  None of it was explained in the story.

No I am not. A real plothole is something that is NOT explained. When you first recruit Mordin Shepard states that they have supplies. Who cares where they got it from? It's Cerberus for crying out loud. The point is that Mordin has a high tech lab, Collector samples and data from Veetors Omi tool. That right there brings upmany ways Mordin got the seeker bug. He made it, cloned it from tissue samples or got it in the box. The samples proves those, which ones are right? No one knows, but it proves that Mordin did not make space magic.Every story has small things like this that are explained to extent, it might not be that detailed but there is still evidence, which means it is not a plothole.

Replay ME and you will find that there is more plotholes in ME then there is in ME2. The only true plotholes in this game are

How the hell would the Collectors attack Earth
How the hell was MIranada walking around in outer space with a oxy mask....
Why Shepard took his whole squad with him in the shuttle

Thats the only true plotholes, all these other plotholes that people say are not because they explained vaguely, but still explained.

Snipped earlier portions...

The plot holes you described in ME1 are not, in fact, plot holes.  They are an artifact of the RPG genre, where time is never a pressure point driving the player.  It may be a pressure point in the story, and the player may feel that pressure emotionally, but it does not impact game play.  

Your example, for instance of Liara, does not work.  If, in your game you chose to get her last, then she only got into the statis field shortly before you got there, just like the Geth got there at the same time.  She was not in there earlier.  Now, if you had found her like that, then left and come back after everything else, then yes.. she would be gone, dead, whatever.  The universe is malleable to that extent.  Just because the same thing happens in one playthrough when you do something earlier or later, does not mean that it happened unseen in another playthrough when you did it differently.

In this case, fact that Shepard makes a throwaway line does not fill the plot hole.  Even so, contextually, his comment, if I recall correctly, refers only to the data they have.  There was nothing in my mind that indicated he would be able to create a working and accurate model.  I do not accept everything I read, even when it's part of a story.  It must make sense, and this didn't.  Even is Shepard did say it more explicitly than I remember, it still doesn't work because I am playing shepard, and he should rarely say anything that I don't know unless it's from his history prior to the game.

[kraidy1117]

Nautica773 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

No I am not. A real plothole is something that is NOT explained. When you first recruit Mordin Shepard states that they have supplies. Who cares where they got it from? It's Cerberus for crying out loud. The point is that Mordin has a high tech lab, Collector samples and data from Veetors Omi tool. That right there brings upmany ways Mordin got the seeker bug. He made it, cloned it from tissue samples or got it in the box. The samples proves those, which ones are right? No one knows, but it proves that Mordin did not make space magic.Every story has small things like this that are explained to extent, it might not be that detailed but there is still evidence, which means it is not a plothole.

At the very least, it's inconsistent. We are told that colonists are disappearing without a trace, except somehow Mordin ends up with a seeker bug, there'd be a huge crater from when the Collector Ship touched down, and for some reason the Collectors failed to pick up Ashley/Kaiden even though they were a couple of yards away from some other poor Horizon bastard we see later past the Omega 4 relay, apparently Veetor's colony was the only one with video cameras in it and no one wanted to share those videos with the Alliance or Citadel Council...

There's a lot of little sloppy things with the plot of Mass Effect 2. It's a little sad, considering how little narrative there is, but there's nothing BioWare can or will do about it now.

Oh heaven forbid, we are not told everything. We don't know how Shepard uses the washroom on shore leave, its a plothole!

Sigh here comes plotholes that are not plotholes. The Collectors where in a hurry when Shepard came. They left alot of people behind and Ash has armor that has healing devices which would result in shorter stasis time. I think people like you like to pick at lillte things like that and scream plot hole! I am not going to argue because I posted evidence and some people are just to stuborn.

[Skilled Seeker]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Later they also mention no one has ever come across any collector tech or DNA ...

Not true. Collecters always sell their tech in exchange for specimens with merc gangs. Also if you have the Collecter's edition then you find that Cerberus has gotten hold of Collecter weapons and armour.

[Nautica773]

kraidy1117 wrote...
Oh heaven forbid, we are not told everything. We don't know how Shepard uses the washroom on shore leave, its a plothole!

Sigh here comes plotholes that are not plotholes. The Collectors where in a hurry when Shepard came. They left alot of people behind and Ash has armor that has healing devices which would result in shorter stasis time. I think people like you like to pick at lillte things like that and scream plot hole! I am not going to argue because I posted evidence and some people are just to stuborn.

It's a problem when the plot requires the amount of secrey over the kindapping of the colonists. You can't enlist Alliance or Citadel aid because there's 'no evidence' for why these people are missing.

And yet you can't help but trip over Collector junk and snap shots the moment you start poking your nose into it. Either the Alliance and Citadel organizations are fueled on pure, blind ineptness or these plot elements are poorly implemented. Either way, it's not very good writing.