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[Default137]

Vicious wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Vicious wrote...

People hate Loghain because he's just too real for them.

Oh yeah he tries to get us killed, he sells our people into slavery, he's complicit in the murder of our family and other nobles but we hate him because he's too real and we're uneducated idiots.

Like I said, if your opinion is uneducated your arguments just don't hold as much water. There's plenty of fine people who have posted on this thread, looked at things from Loghain's point of view, and said, "Nope, he's still an evil bastard."

Those people have my respect. You, however, are just one of the uninformed individuals I referred to.

And at no point did I call you an idiot. But if you wanna call yourself that, enjoy.

But he's an evil bastard with style. ( And really, I'd call it ruthless rather then evil, evil implies he either hates everyone, or wants power, and in fact he wants neither, he doesn't want to be the leader of Ferelden, or leader of anything, other then maybe some troops, and everything he did, he did for Ferelden, so its less of an evil bastard, and more of a ruthless bastard )

But yeah.

I just realized my Loghain knocked up Morrigan, which means Loghains new son will be the Tevinter God of Beauty, which uh, is kind of hilarious in its own way >_>

[Morroian]

Vicious wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Vicious wrote...

People hate Loghain because he's just too real for them.

Oh yeah he tries to get us killed, he sells our people into slavery, he's complicit in the murder of our family and other nobles but we hate him because he's too real and we're uneducated idiots.

Like I said, if your opinion is uneducated your arguments just don't hold as much water. There's plenty of fine people who have posted on this thread, looked at things from Loghain's point of view, and said, "Nope, he's still an evil bastard."

Those people have my respect. You, however, are just one of the uninformed individuals I referred to.

And at no point did I call you an idiot. But if you wanna call yourself that, enjoy.

I was merely responding in kind. If you want a civil discussion then don't call those who merely disagree with you uneducated idiots and claim that he's too real for them as you did, to whit:

"Loghain is awesome, love him or hate him [though the haters tend to have less educated opinions]"
"People hate Loghain because he's just too real for them."

[Morroian]

Default137 wrote...

But as has been pointed out many times, it was a plan built on the thought that this was not a blight.

Which is still his mistake for being so blinded by Orlesian hatred that he refuses to listen to the Wardens. A mistake he commits regicide due to.

Default137 wrote...
Literally, everything that could have gone wrong, did go wrong, the tower was attacked through tunnels, and the guards there were slaughtered, the army got flanked and the Mages retreated shortly after the battle begain, without the Mages, the front lines got slaughtered, and by the time you lit that torch, it was probably just clean up for the Darkspawn.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the graphic of Cailan being killed came after the torch was lit.

Default137 wrote...
And no, he had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands, he had nothing to do with Vaughen attacking the City Elves, he had nothing to do with the Mage Tower, and most likely didn't even plan to kill Cailan judging from his actions.

So basically, you killed a man for selling slaves to save his nation.

He conspired with Howe after the Couslands were killed so he is an accessory after the fact, complicit in their murder.  And do you really think slavery is such a small thing?

Look I do find him an interesting character and I do understand his reasons but that doesn't mean I think he shouldn't face justice. The only reason to keep him alive is as Riordan says, for his expertise in a dire time.

Modifié par Morroian, 24 février 2010 - 03:18 .

[mrp383]

If anyone reads the books Loghain sorta slowly dies inside he becomes a hollow shell of a man and what he does in DAO is unforgivable. He could have attacked and saved the king then fell into a retreat. It is his fault the king is dead im sure Cailen would have realised the batle was lost and called the retreat. A civil war would never have happend and the wardens may not have been almost completely wiped out.

[mrp383]

Flemeth tells Maric that Loghain will betray him and each time worse than the last he may have aided his country but he did it in a way that was wrong he killed many innocents. Attacked the Wardens without reason. He is paranoid of the Orlesians((though they are sneaky bastards)) he is also a rude arrogant bastard.

[Harelda]

Morroian wrote...
He conspired with Howe after the Couslands were killed so he is an accessory after the fact, complicit in their murder.  And do you really think slavery is such a small thing?

 And the fact that Bryce Cousland died means that's one less person who can stand against Loghain's claim for the throne. Both Bryce and Eamon could have gained anough support to seriously send Loghain's plans awry. I don't think Loghain would have shied had he known of Howe's plans before hand. It did suprise me that Loghain never 'fessed up to planning the whole thing with Howe, actually.

[Ken555]

Death to loghain

[LadyDamodred]

Harelda wrote...

 And the fact that Bryce Cousland died means that's one less person who can stand against Loghain's claim for the throne. Both Bryce and Eamon could have gained anough support to seriously send Loghain's plans awry. I don't think Loghain would have shied had he known of Howe's plans before hand. It did suprise me that Loghain never 'fessed up to planning the whole thing with Howe, actually.

You know, I never thought Loghain was in on the murder of the Couslands.  Asking Howe to delay Bryce?  Yes.  Slaughtering the castle?  Not so much.

[Default137]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Harelda wrote...

 And the fact that Bryce Cousland died means that's one less person who can stand against Loghain's claim for the throne. Both Bryce and Eamon could have gained anough support to seriously send Loghain's plans awry. I don't think Loghain would have shied had he known of Howe's plans before hand. It did suprise me that Loghain never 'fessed up to planning the whole thing with Howe, actually.

You know, I never thought Loghain was in on the murder of the Couslands.  Asking Howe to delay Bryce?  Yes.  Slaughtering the castle?  Not so much.

Exactly

Actually, its implied Loghain and Byrce knew each other quite well, as Bryces Son/Daughter was on very good terms with Loghain, as well as a few other things throughout the game, heck, I wouldn't be suprised if they were friends.

Howe acted alone with the Cousland murders, as was said later in the game, it was kind of a spur thing with Howe, and he didn't even know what Loghain was doing, he just knew that in the chaos of the army gathering, he could kill all the Couslands, then claim they were going to betray the King, and get away with it, and probably get rewarded for his actions of stopping them.

[Vaylemn]

Loghain will not be in DA 2 or whatever, because I killed him! Mwuahahahaha!

[Default137]

mrfoo1 wrote...

Default137 wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

Harelda wrote...

 And the fact that Bryce Cousland died means that's one less person who can stand against Loghain's claim for the throne. Both Bryce and Eamon could have gained anough support to seriously send Loghain's plans awry. I don't think Loghain would have shied had he known of Howe's plans before hand. It did suprise me that Loghain never 'fessed up to planning the whole thing with Howe, actually.

You know, I never thought Loghain was in on the murder of the Couslands.  Asking Howe to delay Bryce?  Yes.  Slaughtering the castle?  Not so much.

Exactly

Actually, its implied Loghain and Byrce knew each other quite well, as Bryces Son/Daughter was on very good terms with Loghain, as well as a few other things throughout the game, heck, I wouldn't be suprised if they were friends.

Where in the Noble Origins is this located? I have never seen it so the only contact with Loghain that I am aware of that would implicate Loghain knowing the noble origin character would be if you talk to him durring Ostagar. I am very curious about  this now.

During the peptalk at Ostagar, he mentions your father/family, he also mentions it again later in the game, both during the Landsmeet I believe if you spare him, as well as later on, during the Fort Drakon/Epilogue bits, both of them he basically says a long the lines of he always knew the Couslands where survivors, and that he knew how proud Bryce was of you, and that you have done him proud. I know that doesn't sound really friendly, but the way he said it really made me feel like the two knew each other on a somewhat friendly basis, besides the fact they fought side by side during the Rebellion, and they were the last two Teyrns.

[LadyDamodred]

Hmmm, I knew he recognized me as Bryce's daughter, but even when I let him live, I don't recall getting more convo about it. Did it require a certain level of approval with him or something? I know at the Landsmeet he says how after our meeting at Ostagar he should have known it would come down to the two of us or something. Kinda fuzzy on specifics. Hmmm, never let him survive the AD, though. If it's after that, I'll have to check it out with my HNM.



Now, Howe on the other hand... When you go to kill him, if you choose the right dialogue options, he says how you have that same look in your eye. "There it is. That damned look in the eye that's marked every Cousland success that's held me back. Your father would be proud." Are you perhaps confusing the two?



Also, I'm pretty sure Howe knew what Loghain was doing. It's been mentioned before that he might have been involded with the Eamon issue, though I suppose that could be wrong. I think he just decided to take advantage of the situation because he knew Loghain would need him and would not act against him for murdering the Couslands.

[Morroian]

LadyDamodred wrote...

You know, I never thought Loghain was in on the murder of the Couslands.  Asking Howe to delay Bryce?  Yes.  Slaughtering the castle?  Not so much.

At the very least he's an accessory after the fact. He knew what Howe did yet he still promoted him after Ostagar.

If Howe murdered the Couslands because he knew Loghan was going to do something at Ostagar as a number of people said then Loghain had been planning something along the lines of what happened at Ostagar all along, even if he didn'tnecessarily want Cailan caught up in it. At the very least he probably wanted some sort of catastrophe he could blame on the Grey Wardens, which still means that all along he planned to orchestrate the deaths of 1000s of soldiers.

[Default137]

LadyDamodred wrote...

Hmmm, I knew he recognized me as Bryce's daughter, but even when I let him live, I don't recall getting more convo about it. Did it require a certain level of approval with him or something? I know at the Landsmeet he says how after our meeting at Ostagar he should have known it would come down to the two of us or something. Kinda fuzzy on specifics. Hmmm, never let him survive the AD, though. If it's after that, I'll have to check it out with my HNM.

Now, Howe on the other hand... When you go to kill him, if you choose the right dialogue options, he says how you have that same look in your eye. "There it is. That damned look in the eye that's marked every Cousland success that's held me back. Your father would be proud." Are you perhaps confusing the two?

Also, I'm pretty sure Howe knew what Loghain was doing. It's been mentioned before that he might have been involded with the Eamon issue, though I suppose that could be wrong. I think he just decided to take advantage of the situation because he knew Loghain would need him and would not act against him for murdering the Couslands.

Nope it wasn't Howe, although I remember that line.

It wasn't a long line, but Loghain mentioned how he knew Bryce was always so proud of you, and what you were becoming, and how he could see now why he was, and that he really would be proud to see everything you had accomplished for Ferelden, it was a sort of "awww" moment. I'll have to go through again to see where he says it though, I could have sworn it was at the Landsmeet, but when I loaded my Landsmeet save, he never said anything similar, so I think it may be at the epilogue.

As for Howe and Loghain conspiring, it really depends on if you believe Loghain planned to kill Cailan.

There is honestly way to much evidence suggesting he wasn't planning it for me to believe he really did kill Cailan, he tells Cailan to fall back, and not fight at the front, he gives your character that peptalk, both of which don't give anyone I know the feeling he plans to kill them all, also later in the game the talks between Wynne and him make it seem the only reason he left was because Cailan was already dead, and anything he did would have just sacrificed the entire Ferelden army for no good reason, which he refused to do. And this is not just him trying to save face, Wynne confirms almost everything he says, from the fact the mages left, to the fact Cailan was surrounded and fighting a massive horde by the time the tower was lit.

Honestly, the only evidence around suggesting that Loghain was working with Howe is theorycraft, and that it would have been good for him politically to get Bryce out of the way before killing Cailan, but as I said, that means he had to have been planning to kill Cailan and take over, and it seems way to planned, when him poisoning Eamon was way to spur of the moment, and just a quick fix to a problem, why would he put all this work into killing Bryce, a man who seemed to be very devoted to the King/Queen, when he threw together a poison plot for Eamon off the top of his head, a man who obviously had no love for the crown, but was greatly politically ambitious.

I mean, I get the feeling Bryce would have supported Loghains actions, not just because they are both Teryns, but because Bryce was a loyalist, and would have supported Anora as the Queen, no matter what happened, or at least, he just gave off that vibe, I mean, he defended his king when his king was a moron, he obviously believed in Anora/Cailan.

[FieryDove]

Default137 wrote...
And no, he had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands, he had nothing to do with Vaughen attacking the City Elves, he had nothing to do with the Mage Tower, and most likely didn't even plan to kill Cailan judging from his actions.

Howe wouldn't have had the guts to attack without some support/ok from Logain. And Loghain very much had his hands in everything. The tower? His fault promising Uldred that he would free the mages from the chantry if they plegded themselves to him. It's all explained if one takes the time to talk to people.

The city elf origin, no Loghain didn't have anything to do with that, but he did have them enslaved later and that is a huge black mark in my book not something minor.

I am sorry I just cannot see Loghain as innocent/good in anything. He had a plan all along and knew full well the costs/benefits (in his mind). I won't be seeing him again thankfully, he can stay dead and buried as far as I'm concerned. Great character, no doubt about that, but much like Morrigan I dislike them so much I love them, however I don't want them around in my world as a warden, queen or even a peasant.

[Default137]

FieryDove wrote...

Default137 wrote...
And no, he had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands, he had nothing to do with Vaughen attacking the City Elves, he had nothing to do with the Mage Tower, and most likely didn't even plan to kill Cailan judging from his actions.

Howe wouldn't have had the guts to attack without some support/ok from Logain. And Loghain very much had his hands in everything. The tower? His fault promising Uldred that he would free the mages from the chantry if they plegded themselves to him. It's all explained if one takes the time to talk to people.

The city elf origin, no Loghain didn't have anything to do with that, but he did have them enslaved later and that is a huge black mark in my book not something minor.

I am sorry I just cannot see Loghain as innocent/good in anything. He had a plan all along and knew full well the costs/benefits (in his mind). I won't be seeing him again thankfully, he can stay dead and buried as far as I'm concerned. Great character, no doubt about that, but much like Morrigan I dislike them so much I love them, however I don't want them around in my world as a warden, queen or even a peasant.

Actually, if you talk to him later, you learn he had nothing to do with the Tower, and that Uldred acted alone.

As he put it

( Sarcastically ) "Yes Wynne, you are correct, it was my plan all along to totally destroy Fereldens greatest weapon for no reason, that was always to be my starting stone to greatness, and you foiled it ever so cruelly"

Trust me, I've done my homework, the only things that he can be confirmed of doing is selling the elves, and while its mean, bad, and not exactly morally just, its not something I'm going to kill a man over, I have Sten with me, and he murdered an entire family of innocent defenseless people, how is Loghain worse then that for selling some elves, people who most of Ferelden thought as much less then second class citizens?

Modifié par Default137, 24 février 2010 - 08:00 .

[casedawgz]

Loghain is dead in all my saves. Not because I think he's some scoundrel, but because I think that the best narrative comes from giving him the oppurtunity for heroic sacrifice at the end. Everyone who should live, lives, and Loghain redeems himself and reclaims his lost honor. As long as you have Alistair and Anora marry, there aren't really any losers.

[Ultenth]

I also have Loghain dead in all my saves. Because he's a giant douche and just all around evil guy. For his own petty and selfish and genephobic reasons he's willing to let his daughter's son die, the son of his supposed best friend. And then follow it up with causing tons of other deaths and horrible treatment to his own people, and not even properly defending them in the end. If he had worked WITH what his king wanted instead of fighting him, maybe he would have been able to muster a large enough force to win at Ostragar, and nip much of the blight that devestated this country he supposedly loves and would do anything for.

I understand all the petty justificationsn for things he's done, but no way will I let him or his equally messed up daugther run my country. Kill Loghain and lock that hoe away. I'll help Allistair run things and make sure no one F's things up again. My PC is all about being ruthless and kinda power hungry, but he's nowhere near Loghain, who seems to do messed up stuff just because he's too lazy to come up with a better solution.

It is however interesting and a bit amusing to see his many actions that are quite obviously attributed to him and are quite evil as something he wasn't involved in or didn't intend.  Maybe just the choices you make can change the playthroughs that drastically, but I'm going to lean towards naivete, wishful thinking, or fanaticism towards him.

Modifié par Ultenth, 24 février 2010 - 08:52 .

[Feraele]

Humm..so with that thinking..its okay to be a mass murderer..as long as you do it with style? O.o

I dunno..maybe the world has passed me by or something.   The way I was taught was, you treated others as you would have them treat you.

Loghain marched with heavy boots over anyone and anything in his path.  No remorse, no regrets, and if anyone dared say different ..his buddy Howe had them kidnapped and tortured in the dungeon of his home.

BTW..there are quite a few dead bodies strung up on the ceiling  of that dungeon, more sons and daughters of noblemen, that don't realize they are missing?

It was a pretty gorey scene.

I still can't understand why Loghain would even be considered..a hero ..in the later stages of his maniacal paranoia.   He lost it....that was gone.    He became the exact opposite of the hero he was.   

I can't admire someone like that..and it surprises me that people will put all that he did aside and still declare him some sort of hero.

I find that very very strange.

Modifié par Feraele, 24 février 2010 - 09:14 .

[nos_astra]

casedawgz wrote...
As long as you have Alistair and Anora marry, there aren't really any losers.

If you regard Alistair as your tool, then no.

Modifié par klarabella, 24 février 2010 - 09:13 .

[casedawgz]

klarabella wrote...

casedawgz wrote...
As long as you have Alistair and Anora marry, there aren't really any losers.

If you regard Alistair as your tool, then no.

Guilty as charged.

[Default137]

Ultenth wrote...

It is however interesting and a bit amusing to see his many actions that are quite obviously attributed to him and are quite evil as something he wasn't involved in or didn't intend.  Maybe just the choices you make can change the playthroughs that drastically, but I'm going to lean towards naivete, wishful thinking, or fanaticism towards him.

Actually, while I like the character, its more desire to point out facts since most of these threads are just people saying "BUT DA CUTSCENES SHOWED HIM AS BAD, HOW HE CAN BE GOOD HURRRRRR BRAIN HURT" over and over again for several pages, and I am nothing if not irritated greatly when people REFUSE to look at a character, and just paint them off because a cutscene told them to believe that is truth, despite evidence on the contrary.

And what exactly did he do thats "obviously" attributed to him?

Couslands - Attributed to Howe, can only be connected to Loghain if Loghain planned to kill Cailan, even then its a hard fit.

Cailan/Duncan/Ostagar - Yes he retreated, but not only did he have good reasons, but as he says if you bring him, he would have done the exact same thing if he was in the same position and his daughter was in Cailans place, because there was nothing he could have done. This, along with the MANY other things he and Wynne talk about lead me to belive it wasn't a deliberate plan to kill Cailan, but rather just an old General refusing to sacrifice what little remained of Fereldens army to save a idiot king that would have died anyway since the mage support had left the field.

Mage Tower - He says he didn't do it, and Wynne agrees it was all Uldred here, not much more I can say.

Eamon - Yeah sure, he poisoned a rival, but it was only to put him into a deep slumber, if it wasn't for Conner messing around with demons, he could have easily had the Arl woken up after he set things up, which is implied to be his plan if you talk to him. It wasn't an act of malice, he just didn't want to drive Ferelden into a civil war when it was already so weak, especially with Orlais next door, as he knew Eamon would hound him constantly, and had enough support to fight back.

Alienage - Yeah, he sold Elves, but he did it to keep the Civil War from blowing up, and to keep enough forces on hand to handle Orlais, the Blight, and the Warden, once again, he did it for Ferelden, rather then because he was a power hungry maniac or anything. You have to realize, yeah its an immoral act, but Elves were still seen as little more then second hand citizens by most of Ferelden, even with all the advances they had made, to Loghain it would be like selling dogs and cats to pay for something, its cruel and mean, but not really evil.

In the end, all he did was poison Eamon, which was just a temporary solution just to keep the country out of Civil War, and sold a few Elves.

And thats enough to kill him?

Yeah, they are not nice things to do, slavery is bad, and so is poison, but he did have good reasons to do both, as he was stuck with his back against a wall for most of the game, and was willing to do anything to keep Ferelden toghether, immoral or not. But last I checked, slavery is not enough to kill a person in front of their only daughter, for no reason other then a party member is pissed and to immature to see any other way.

I mean, look at Sten, he killed an entire family in cold blood, they were unarmed, could not defend themselves, and actually invited him in to their home, and he killed every single one of them, even the children, then sat there and waited for the guard to arrive. Yet people love Sten, and nobody bats an eye to saving him, but because Loghain sold a few Elves to keep Ferelden from falling apart, its cut off his head time? Exscuse me if I wonder if people have gone insane, or don't think very hard about things.

Modifié par Default137, 24 février 2010 - 09:28 .

[Feraele]

You can't justify poisoning someone...it was self-serving, he wanted the throne, he conveniently departed the field and left Cailan to die. How do we know that his intention was just to put Eamon to sleep??? We don't. And as a matter fact, Eamon would have died had it not been for finding the Urn and getting the Ashes to cure him.



Consorting with a maleficar..to poison your rival...thats damning right there. There are laws..



Spending time informing your troops..that it was really the Wardens who killed Cailan ..was all done to cover his own tracks..save his own butt. He conducted a smear campaign and also had people out looking for Wardens, to kill them off.



No witnesses..nobody able to tell the story of Loghain betraying his King.



And people admire that??