510 réponses à ce sujet

[Feraele]

How on earth can you justify selling people into slavery?? Especially in this day and age..HOW can you make excuses for the things that he did?



You know..I get the impression alot of folks..even in real life, do this sort of thing "turning a blind eye"...the excuse being, "well it didn't happen to me..so I don't care".



*shakes her head*



Granted this is a story, but just the same..there is a clear difference between good and evil.



And the things that Loghain did were evil with a capital E.

[casedawgz]

Slavery is an inextricable part of the batarian caste system.

[Feraele]

casedawgz wrote...

Slavery is an inextricable part of the batarian caste system.

And...that makes it okay?

So if they enslaved your mother and father..that would be okay with you?

[Ultenth]

Default137 wrote...

Actually, while I like the character, its more desire to point out facts since most of these threads are just people saying "BUT DA CUTSCENES SHOWED HIM AS BAD, HOW HE CAN BE GOOD HURRRRRR BRAIN HURT" over and over again for several pages, and I am nothing if not irritated greatly when people REFUSE to look at a character, and just paint them off because a cutscene told them to believe that is truth, despite evidence on the contrary.

Couslands - The fact that he worked with Howe and turned a blind eye to the torture and executions he did makes him evil. Not stopping or punishing an evil man when you have the power to do so is evil.

Cailan/Duncan/Ostagar - Perhaps instead of fighting his king and thinking his king and grey wardens were all idiots he could have trusted him, and not been so genephobic that he would be able to see the true threat was the blight.  Maybe if he had he would have done what the PC did ahead of time, and gotten support from everyone in the area to field a bigger army able to succeed.  It's his own stubborness and ego that killed thousands of people that day, including his king, and then killed thousands more as the blight then ran unchecked through ferelden.  While it may not make him evil, it makes him a grade A coward and complete douchebag that he just left his king in the lurch instead of trying to somehow pull him out.  But no, instead he let him die, because he was too stupid and arrogant to see that it would divide the nation just as it needed most to be whole.   And because he hated him because he had lingering resentments about his birth.

Mage Tower - Loghain who supposedly cares only about ferelden and it's defense, allowed a situation to continue without support that prevented two of his most powerful potential allies from defending against the blight, mages and templars. It's like he didn't even care and tried nothing to resolve the situation, instead leaving it up to the PC.

Eamon - Again his ego that allowed him to let the king die, thinking foolishly he could hold the country together himself, is the same that allowed him to poison the leader of a powerful city that could have helped defend the people of fereden against the blight.  And it didn't even work again, because many other Arl's rebelled against him, which made it even harder to defeat the blight.

Alienage - Not only did he allow slavery of the elves, he let them be SOLD TO ORLAIS, a country he supposedly hates and doens't want involved at all in ferelden.  So he doesn't mind selling off his own people (even though elves, they are still living in his capital city and are thus his people) to Orlais, but he doesn't want his king to develop good relations with them to allow ferelden to keep it's independance and safety, and oh, yeah, that's right, maybe NOT have 1/2 the people in the country die from the blight?

The Player Character - He tries to blame the death of the king on me and the other grey wardens, and then sends out assassin's after me?  How can I NOT view that as evil?  I as the player had done nothing but do my best to defend my country and fight the blight, and this is how he repays me?

The guy is a liar, a murderer, a regicide, a torturer, and a petty despot who tries to crush everyone who disagrees with him.  His love for ferelden is twisted, and he is ultimately the cause of the death of more of it citizens than anyone else.

[Ultenth]

Feraele wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

Slavery is an inextricable part of the batarian caste system.

And...that makes it okay?

So if they enslaved your mother and father..that would be okay with you?

Lol, that was obviously a ME2 joke that you took far too seriously

[nos_astra]

Ultenth wrote...

Feraele wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

Slavery is an inextricable part of the batarian caste system.

And...that makes it okay?

So if they enslaved your mother and father..that would be okay with you?

Lol, that was obviously a ME2 joke that you took far too seriously

That's easy if you didn't play ME2, I suppose.

[Default137]

Feraele wrote...

How on earth can you justify selling people into slavery?? Especially in this day and age..HOW can you make excuses for the things that he did?

You know..I get the impression alot of folks..even in real life, do this sort of thing "turning a blind eye"...the excuse being, "well it didn't happen to me..so I don't care".

*shakes her head*

Granted this is a story, but just the same..there is a clear difference between good and evil.

And the things that Loghain did were evil with a capital E.

Actually no.

Evil is about self-serving, and powergrubbing, Loghain displayed neither trait.

The proper word is ruthless.

As for the battle, its basically all but confirmed by Bioware he did not plan to kill Cailan, but retreated when he saw the battle was lost, and because he didn't want to lose even more men trying to save that which was already lost, a treasonous act, but in fact a noble goal, he didn't want to lose several thousand men for a 2% chance to save Cailan.

The poisoning most likely wouldn't have killed Eamon, at least according to Loghain, in fact, none of the NPCs I remember say Eamon was dying, only that they couldn't wake him up, and were worried about him because of that, and it was a perfect political move, would you rather Eamon start a Civil War because Loghain would rather save a thousand lives, or have him put to sleep for a few months while things settled? Civil Wars are terrible things, and would have caused thousands more deaths, so to Loghain it was perfectly moral, he was saving thousands by keeping Eamon sleeping.

As for the slavery, I think slavery is immoral, wrong, and all around bad, however I do NOT think slavery is enough reason to kill a man, especially one who could prove to be amazingly useful in the near future, as he has a history of being a General, and I have several armies I need commanded. You also have to realize, Loghain really didn't have any options, he was surrounded, under attack from all sides, and needed money to pay his armies, he was fighting not just the rebels, but also the blight, as well as making sure Orlais didn't view Ferelden as weak enough to attack, he didn't HAVE any other choices in the matter, as he needed that money and fast, just to keep Ferelden from falling apart.

There is also the fact that while slavery was looked down upon in Ferelden, this was still very primitive times, and for many, slavery is basically little worse then the current system, as many common folk worked in basically slavelike conditions for very little pay anyway, he was just making money from the process, it wouldn't have carried anywhere near the stigma is carries in our time, or our world, and would be akin to looking down at people who sell pets, or bring them to shelters.

Modifié par Default137, 24 février 2010 - 09:40 .

[nos_astra]

Default137 wrote...
There is also the fact that while slavery was looked down upon in Ferelden, this was still very primitive times, and for many, slavery is basically little worse then the current system, as many common folk worked in basically slavelike conditions for very little pay anyway, he was just making money from the process, it wouldn't have carried anywhere near the stigma is carries in our time, or our world, and would be akin to looking down at people who sell pets, or bring them to shelters.

That still doesn't mean I have to agree with Loghain that it's fine to sell people. The Landsmeet doesn't agree either as you may remember. It's one of you points you can make to get support.

[Ultenth]

To add to my previous post, it seems to me like the people at bioware have fallen in love with Loghain, and are trying to retcon things to make him appear in a better light. What when I was playing it (and all my friends who felt the same way) an obviously evil and premedetated act at the time is now supposedly not? That's either just really weak writing in terms of the game, or just a sad attempt to retcon something and sneak it past. If he really wanted it to be interpretted that way, maybe they shouldn't have tried so hard to make it appear otherwise, I'm okay with not getting all the info to make a story interesting, but being willfully lied to by a writer is just a sign of lazy or bad writing.

[Default137]

Ultenth wrote...

Default137 wrote...

Actually, while I like the character, its more desire to point out facts since most of these threads are just people saying "BUT DA CUTSCENES SHOWED HIM AS BAD, HOW HE CAN BE GOOD HURRRRRR BRAIN HURT" over and over again for several pages, and I am nothing if not irritated greatly when people REFUSE to look at a character, and just paint them off because a cutscene told them to believe that is truth, despite evidence on the contrary.

Couslands - The fact that he worked with Howe and turned a blind eye to the torture and executions he did makes him evil. Not stopping or punishing an evil man when you have the power to do so is evil.

Cailan/Duncan/Ostagar - Perhaps instead of fighting his king and thinking his king and grey wardens were all idiots he could have trusted him, and not been so genephobic that he would be able to see the true threat was the blight.  Maybe if he had he would have done what the PC did ahead of time, and gotten support from everyone in the area to field a bigger army able to succeed.  It's his own stubborness and ego that killed thousands of people that day, including his king, and then killed thousands more as the blight then ran unchecked through ferelden.  While it may not make him evil, it makes him a grade A coward and complete douchebag that he just left his king in the lurch instead of trying to somehow pull him out.  But no, instead he let him die, because he was too stupid and arrogant to see that it would divide the nation just as it needed most to be whole.   And because he hated him because he had lingering resentments about his birth.

Mage Tower - Loghain who supposedly cares only about ferelden and it's defense, allowed a situation to continue without support that prevented two of his most powerful potential allies from defending against the blight, mages and templars. It's like he didn't even care and tried nothing to resolve the situation, instead leaving it up to the PC.

Eamon - Again his ego that allowed him to let the king die, thinking foolishly he could hold the country together himself, is the same that allowed him to poison the leader of a powerful city that could have helped defend the people of fereden against the blight.  And it didn't even work again, because many other Arl's rebelled against him, which made it even harder to defeat the blight.

Alienage - Not only did he allow slavery of the elves, he let them be SOLD TO ORLAIS, a country he supposedly hates and doens't want involved at all in ferelden.  So he doesn't mind selling off his own people (even though elves, they are still living in his capital city and are thus his people) to Orlais, but he doesn't want his king to develop good relations with them to allow ferelden to keep it's independance and safety, and oh, yeah, that's right, maybe NOT have 1/2 the people in the country die from the blight?

The Player Character - He tries to blame the death of the king on me and the other grey wardens, and then sends out assassin's after me?  How can I NOT view that as evil?  I as the player had done nothing but do my best to defend my country and fight the blight, and this is how he repays me?

The guy is a liar, a murderer, a regicide, a torturer, and a petty despot who tries to crush everyone who disagrees with him.  His love for ferelden is twisted, and he is ultimately the cause of the death of more of it citizens than anyone else.

I know double post, but whatever.

Just because you work with an evil man does not make you evil, my father works as an undercover cop for New York City PD, he often goes undercover in various gangs and whatnot, and pretends to be like them, due to his work, he has had to kill people before, as well as do many other unsavory things, is he evil to you? I mean, he works with the scum of the earth, and turns a blind eye, obviously he must be a terrible person because of it.

And nobody thought it was a Blight, thats the problem. You think it was his xenophobia that lost that battle, but it wasn't, nobody except Duncan thought it would be anything more then a massacre of the Darkspawn, because all they'd been fighting up that that point was minor battles, and this was supposed to be the one where they finally fought off the bulk of the horde, and drove them off, problem is, the horde was several times larger then planned, and also much smarter, as it both flanked them and attacked them from beneath. Why would ANYONE wait for help from more Arls, as well as Orlais ( help that was never going to come anyway ), when all you thought it was going to be was a mop up job? And Loghain COULDN'T have saved Cailan, thats the problem, the Mages left way to early, and without their support, he never would have reached Cailan in time. No offense, but do you honestly believe him killing 3/4ths of his army, most likely close to 800-1200 men was a better choice then retreating when he knew the battle was lost? 

It takes close to a month if not more to travel between Denerim and the Mage Tower, add in the fact the Templars really couldn't send off a messenger, and its kind of doubtful he knew until the Warden had already cleaned up the place. They don't exactly have cellphones in Ferelden ya?

As for Eamon, you obviously didn't pay attention to his personality, Eamon would have NEVER worked with Loghain after the retreat, he loved Cailan because he was stupid, and was more willing to listen to his advise, Anora and Loghain just ****blocked him every time he tried to get more power. Loghain knew Eamon way to well, and knew if he was up and about, all that would happen is Eamon would fight back, and unite the banns against him, which would lead to Civil War, which it in fact did. Once again, he got rid of one person to save several thousand, the Civil War tore the nation apart, and thousands died because of it, if Eamon stayed down, that war would have never happened.

And no.

He sold the Elves to the Tevinter, not sure where you are getting the Orlais bit.

And the reason he scapegoated the Gray Wardens was because he thought we were all dead, didn't really like the order in the first place, as it tried to depose a previous king, and he "saw" the Wardens try to kill Maric before, he didn't trust nor like the order, and if he could scapegoat them to divert the blame away from him while he rebuilt Ferelden, he would.

[Feraele]

Ultenth wrote...

Feraele wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

Slavery is an inextricable part of the batarian caste system.

And...that makes it okay?

So if they enslaved your mother and father..that would be okay with you?

Lol, that was obviously a ME2 joke that you took far too seriously

Haven't played Me, or Me2...so I don't know who the Batarians are.......

[Ultenth]

Working with an evil man with the intention of ultimately bringing him to justice is drastically different than what Loghain and Howe's relationship was.

Duncan thought it was a blight, as did the KING. Again, this is Loghain's ego again, thinking he knows everything when he knows just enough to be dangerous. If he trusted his KING to be a KING and he acted as his role, he would have supported his king more fully by providing him with a larger army on the assumption the king and duncan are correct. But he didn't, he was wrong, and since he was wrong he punished the king and the grey wardens for his failure as a general? If he thought more like a king he tried later to be, he would have realized that upon seein the blight, that now more than ever his country needed a king to unite it, and he would have saved Cailen, but instead his ego and greed got in the way.

If the player can travel between the cities with ease to coordinate things and save the mage tower eventually, so could he, I know it's gameplay and all, but still, he showed no interest in resolving the situation to supply his army with a better chance of success.

The civil war was already ongoing even while Eamon was poisened. His being poisened to the degree he required an ultra-magic item to save him (lol didn't want to kill him? plus working with a maleficar to do it?) did nothing. So again, we get back to either he's evil, or just plain freakin stupid and incompetent.

Yes, my mistake, it was to Tevinter. But that still doesn't justify slavery, which is EVIL. Say it with me now, SLAVERY IS EVIL. All civilized people would agree that owning another human being as a piece of property, to use as you will, and in fact kidnapping free people to turn into slaves, is pure evil at it's finest, and does more damage to more lives than Sten ever did with his one family killed. Think about all the families torn apart by this, and the lives ruined just the same as if they were dead.

If he thought all the Wardens were dead why put out a hit on them, and why do all the stuff in the capital about looking for "sympathizers"? He picked them as a scapegoat because that's what evil people do, blame other's for their wrongdoings and then try to get them killed for it.

Modifié par Ultenth, 24 février 2010 - 10:09 .

[Feraele]

Loghain is NOT an undercover cop.........bad analogy. lol



Loghain was buddy buddy with Howe. Loghain knew that Howe was an unscrupulous character, yet he kept giving him more land, and more titles. To say he knew nothing about what Howe was up to ..I think is a little bit naive.



Loghain was feathering his own nest. And I am convinced that the snake Howe, if he had lived, would have turned on Loghain as well..given the oportunity.

So Loghain really was putting his lot in with the wrong guy..but then, he was so paranoid perhaps he wouldn't have deduced this at all.



Encouraging slavers to come into his own city, and kidnap elves by force, separating them from their homes and family..selling them, is a despicable act. Sending out assassin teams to kill any Warden supporters and or Wardens if found..is also a despicable act. The Wardens fought along side of Cailan, died with Cailan. They were innocent of the charges Loghain attempted to smear them with.



Look again at who Loghain teamed up with...Howe, a murderer..a betrayer who was invited as a guest in the Cousland's home, and murdered them basically in their beds.



Birds of a feather..flock together. Loghain had descended so far into the muck that he actually had Howe as a sidekick.

[Phantom_1]

Ultenth wrote...


Couslands - The fact that he worked with Howe and turned a blind eye to the torture and executions he did makes him evil. Not stopping or punishing an evil man when you have the power to do so is evil.

Cailan/Duncan/Ostagar - Perhaps instead of fighting his king and thinking his king and grey wardens were all idiots he could have trusted him, and not been so genephobic that he would be able to see the true threat was the blight.  Maybe if he had he would have done what the PC did ahead of time, and gotten support from everyone in the area to field a bigger army able to succeed.  It's his own stubborness and ego that killed thousands of people that day, including his king, and then killed thousands more as the blight then ran unchecked through ferelden.  While it may not make him evil, it makes him a grade A coward and complete douchebag that he just left his king in the lurch instead of trying to somehow pull him out.  But no, instead he let him die, because he was too stupid and arrogant to see that it would divide the nation just as it needed most to be whole.   And because he hated him because he had lingering resentments about his birth.

Mage Tower - Loghain who supposedly cares only about ferelden and it's defense, allowed a situation to continue without support that prevented two of his most powerful potential allies from defending against the blight, mages and templars. It's like he didn't even care and tried nothing to resolve the situation, instead leaving it up to the PC.

Eamon - Again his ego that allowed him to let the king die, thinking foolishly he could hold the country together himself, is the same that allowed him to poison the leader of a powerful city that could have helped defend the people of fereden against the blight.  And it didn't even work again, because many other Arl's rebelled against him, which made it even harder to defeat the blight.

Alienage - Not only did he allow slavery of the elves, he let them be SOLD TO ORLAIS, a country he supposedly hates and doens't want involved at all in ferelden.  So he doesn't mind selling off his own people (even though elves, they are still living in his capital city and are thus his people) to Orlais, but he doesn't want his king to develop good relations with them to allow ferelden to keep it's independance and safety, and oh, yeah, that's right, maybe NOT have 1/2 the people in the country die from the blight?

The Player Character - He tries to blame the death of the king on me and the other grey wardens, and then sends out assassin's after me?  How can I NOT view that as evil?  I as the player had done nothing but do my best to defend my country and fight the blight, and this is how he repays me?

The guy is a liar, a murderer, a regicide, a torturer, and a petty despot who tries to crush everyone who disagrees with him.  His love for ferelden is twisted, and he is ultimately the cause of the death of more of it citizens than anyone else.

Lets see :

Cousland - why do you think he did know what Howe is doing,  i think Howe is true villain in DAO not Loghain and that he did many bad things on his own behind Loghain back coz Howe was power greedy bastard,  and i would execute him any day.

Ostagar -  as many ppl in this thread mentioned for x number of times that nobody expected Blight there just normal darkspawn  and since nobody expected Blight there thats why  there wasnt  full army and Cailan was in first line  ,      he didnt wanted for Cailan to be  on frontline  in first place but that guy was idealist and dreamer and based  his fantasys about  easy win over darkspawn on Duncan storys.
And how do you expect from his to trust in Orlais considering recent past ,  and that things which happend to him in his early age , and the fact the wounds of Orlais occupation where still fresh ?

Loghain did waited for sign but before sign was turned the battle was lost ,  and he didnt wanted to lead his troops into certain death to save Cailan ,   coz than they would all die there and there wouldnt be much of hope left  for Feralden anymore.
So Cailan did pay  for his idealism with high price of  his life and thats his  own fault.

Mage tower -  how do you know that he would not help eventually ?

Alienage -  those city elves where citizens of second grade ,  they didnt had all rights like rest of the ppl and never did stand for themself.
And most of them did lesser jobs in the city and where servants   ,  and in  time of war in which Feralden was they needed money to finance army and mercenarys.

Blaming the wardens for Cailan -  in a way Duncan highly manipulated with him with his storys which did lead him to beleive in fairytales and easy win over darkspawn

Modifié par Phantom_1, 24 février 2010 - 11:00 .

[Morroian]

Default137 wrote...
Trust me, I've done my homework, the only things that he can be confirmed of doing is selling the elves, and while its mean, bad, and not exactly morally just, its not something I'm going to kill a man over, I have Sten with me, and he murdered an entire family of innocent defenseless people, how is Loghain worse then that for selling some elves, people who most of Ferelden thought as much less then second class citizens?

Its a fact that he abandoned his king and a large number of Ferelden soldiers to their deaths. Its a fact that he framed the grey wardens and sent assassins after them. Its a fact that he knew Howe murdered the entire Cousland houshold yet promoted him afterward. There are also strong indications that it wasn't just the Couslands either that other powerful families who Loghain feared were also murdered. The facts are more on the side of Loghain being a paranoid bastard than misunderstood saviour.

However I'll grant you that most everything else in the game is filtered through the POV of the various characters which is an indication of how well its written I think and therefore most judgements on the characters are subjective. I think also its been written in such a way that the truth of the various events in the game depends largely on the individual experience of the player and the choices they make. For instance I've never paired Loghain with Wynne so as far as I'm  concerned any conversation between the 2 of them about Ostagar doesn't exist in my game world.

[Morroian]

Default137 wrote...
I know double post, but whatever.

Just because you work with an evil man does not make you evil, my father works as an undercover cop for New York City PD, he often goes undercover in various gangs and whatnot, and pretends to be like them, due to his work, he has had to kill people before, as well as do many other unsavory things, is he evil to you? I mean, he works with the scum of the earth, and turns a blind eye, obviously he must be a terrible person because of it.

As others have said that analogy doesn't fit at all. As for being evil well performing evil acts makes you evil, you don't have to necessarily be power hungry as you alluded to earlier. And Loghain has undoubtedly performed evil acts.

Default137 wrote...
And nobody thought it was a Blight, thats the problem. You think it was his xenophobia that lost that battle, but it wasn't, nobody except Duncan thought it would be anything more then a massacre of the Darkspawn,

It was xenophobia that led to him not listening to Duncan and losing the battle his king and 1000s of soldiers.

Default137 wrote...
As for Eamon, you obviously didn't pay attention to his personality, Eamon would have NEVER worked with Loghain after the retreat, he loved Cailan because he was stupid, and was more willing to listen to his advise, Anora and Loghain just ****blocked him every time he tried to get more power.

What is the factual evidence that Eamon is such an evil bastard?

Default137 wrote...
And the reason he scapegoated the Gray Wardens was because he thought we were all dead,

So he sent assassins after dead men?

[Morroian]

Ultenth wrote...

To add to my previous post, it seems to me like the people at bioware have fallen in love with Loghain, and are trying to retcon things to make him appear in a better light. What when I was playing it (and all my friends who felt the same way) an obviously evil and premedetated act at the time is now supposedly not? That's either just really weak writing in terms of the game, or just a sad attempt to retcon something and sneak it past. If he really wanted it to be interpretted that way, maybe they shouldn't have tried so hard to make it appear otherwise, I'm okay with not getting all the info to make a story interesting, but being willfully lied to by a writer is just a sign of lazy or bad writing.

I agree there is a disconnect between David Gaider's comments on Loghain and the portrayal in the game. There was a lot more they could have done to make him more ambiguous but then as I said in another post maybe they wanted to  have peoples opinions on Loghain hinge on the choices they make in the game.

[mrp383]

Loghain had a job to do and that was Protect his country and Cailen. Cailen was the king and he is not expendable. If you read the books how many lives are lost saving Maric over and over again. They sacrafice themselves to protect the king and Calenhads (( forgive any typos)) bloodline. And as to the Tyrren of Highever i believe he would have protected the Calenhad bloodling and would have been enraged at what had happend to cailen and he would have deffinetly supported Alistar. Also comparing Sten to Loghain is not fare. Sten was wounded and scared when he woke up and slew a family. Loghain had time to think he could have acted and stopped many terrible things from happening. Wich is worse the muderer who is willing to kill face to face or the one who uses others to do his dark deeds.

[ReubenLiew]

Maric also made Loghain swear never to sacrifice the lives of his men just to save him nor to put a single person over the lives of the many.



And the king didn't think it was a Blight either, he even says so the first time you meet him.

[Ceridraen]

Let the Snidely Whiplash, mustache-twirling villain live, & then look forward to him, because somehow his evil makes him 'deep?' Ah... no. A tacked on, 'but I loved my little girl' speech at the end does not inspire sympathy. I was happy to see his head roll, & his obnoxious daughter can go get therapy.

[nos_astra]

ReubenLiew wrote...
And the king didn't think it was a Blight either, he even says so the first time you meet him.

He says: I'm not sure this is even a Blight.
When the battle at Ostagar is about to star, he says: The Blight ends here.

So even if he wasn't sure he didn't ignore the possibility like Loghain did.

[Suilebhain]

Hey, Knight! You are a master at revisionist history!

Making Eamon out to be the bad guy and Loghain to be a patriot indicates that you have a high Propaganda skill! How you get Eamon as a master manipulator, Loghain as the loyal patriot, and Cailan as a total nitwit is masterful. There is one fact you have left out, as most revisionists do in order to drive their "facts" home - Cailan did NOT want to immediately go into battle. He wanted to wait for reinforcements from the Orlesian Grey Wardens, and, as we later learn, from the Orlesians themselves, but Loghain was too blind in his hatred for his former enemy, one that is a generation past, to see the wisdom in it.

So, Loghain is really more of a schicklegruber in his approach to things - blaming those who once opposed him, using and creating cahos as a way to destabilize the existing power structure, then taking it for himself, allying himself along the way with others who have more brutal and less scrupulous methods of securing their own power. I have no sympathy for Loghain, and my character secretly hoped that the Joining would have killed him (though I knew it wouldn't).

Modifié par Suilebhain, 24 février 2010 - 03:06 .

[Curlain]

Default137 wrote...


As for the slavery, I think slavery is immoral, wrong, and all around bad, however I do NOT think slavery is enough reason to kill a man, especially one who could prove to be amazingly useful in the near future, as he has a history of being a General, and I have several armies I need commanded. You also have to realize, Loghain really didn't have any options, he was surrounded, under attack from all sides, and needed money to pay his armies, he was fighting not just the rebels, but also the blight, as well as making sure Orlais didn't view Ferelden as weak enough to attack, he didn't HAVE any other choices in the matter, as he needed that money and fast, just to keep Ferelden from falling apart.

This I don't agree with, Loghain had a choice, allot of choices throughtout the game.  Whatever you debate of his decisions to say a man like Loghain has no choices is just wrong, with his mind, power and ability he always had a choice when he acted the way he did, no one forced his hand, his paranoia, belief in his own legend (degree of egomania?), and ruthlessness just allowed him to convince himself he had no choice.  This however is not the same thing as having no choice, everyone always does, so it's not really a justified excuse for this decision, in that he had no choice about it.

Also I have to agree with some above about a feeling that there is some reconning going on with Loghain, such as the statement that he never intended to kill Eamon when he had him poisoned.  I know Gaider has posted saying this is the case, and I guess therefore it is, but there was nothing in the game I have ever come across in my playthroughs that suggest this, everyone reacts as if the poisoning was intended (or at least was likely to result in) to cause Eamon's death, it's treated as a murder attempt.  Jowan seems to react as if this was the case, and never offers a defense of 'but it was never going to kill him,' nor did any dialogue I came across from Loghain as a party member come up with 'I never intended on killing Eamon' etc.  The only reason I have ever come across ingame for Eamon's survival is Connor's demon, so it's possible I have missed something, but purely from the game itself I never had anything even hinting at Loghain not poisoning Eamon with the intention of kiling him.  

To me the fascinating thing about Loghain ingame was a statement one of the gossipers said about him, that it's like having the Orlesians back except now it's the our own doing it, and having read The Stolen Throne it really gave him a tragic edge through the game.  He becomes the very tyranny he stood against, and I liked that, so I was surprised reading some of the writers posts about some issues with Loghain, because they really didn't seem to be reflected in the game at all.  Now it's quite possible that I've missed some things, but still, it seems I'm not the only one missing these things in game, so I guess I kinda agree with some above, if the writers intended Logahin's actions or intentions to be seen a certain way, perhaps they should have represented them more clearly within the game's dialogue at some point.

[LadyDamodred]

I'd like to add my own opinion to the whole 'All Loghain did was sell some elves and poison Eamon." line of thinking.



That was not all that he did, but let's address that first. Loghain had Eamon poisoned BEFORE Ostagar. Not only that, he did it using a blood mage whom his soldiers picked up and then imprisoned the templar who was chasing him. That's all kinds of sketchy. It also shows that he plans very well. He might not have been planning for Cailan to die at Ostagar, but he was clearly planning to strengthen his position should the worst come to pass.



Selling the elves. Okay, yes, elves are treated as second class citizens in much of Thedas. That being said, Ferelden is a fiercely independent country filled with fiercely independent people. The thought of people being owned, treated as property is anathema to what the Ferelden character is. So, yes, while they may not treat elves very fairly, to outright buy and sell them is horrifying to them.



And as I and others have pointed out, as the game progresses, Loghain becomes what he once hated and fought against. Not only does he lie about and blame the GW, and attempt to have you killed multiple times, he becomes a tyrant. Telling the Bannorn they must fall in line? The King can't even do that. Seizing lands because the Bann won't follow him? That is exactly what happened with the Orlesian occupation. Allying himself with traitors and murderers to consolidate power?



As I said earlier, Cauthrien, his most loyal supporter, summed it up best. His hatred drove him to madness. He became everything he once hated. This is what makes him tragic. He may have good reasons for what he did initially, at least from his point of view. But as the story progresses, things keep going wrong. Loghain is not happy with what is happening, but what can he do? He can't suddenly change his mind and reverse position. He is damned to his course and must follow it through to the bitter end, even as he knows what he is doing is wrong and a betrayal to his country. I find his character incredibly sad. The man gave everything for his country and in the end, what did it get him? Heartache and pain.



Also, if anyone does find where Loghain says Bryce is proud of you, please let me know. I have to go have this conversation with him now. *sighs* I hate betraying Alistair.

[Wishpig]

Ceridraen wrote...

Let the Snidely Whiplash, mustache-twirling villain live, & then look forward to him, because somehow his evil makes him 'deep?' Ah... no. A tacked on, 'but I loved my little girl' speech at the end does not inspire sympathy. I was happy to see his head roll, & his obnoxious daughter can go get therapy.

Why to respond without reading any of the thread. The guy has pretty much an entire novel written about him in which he's the good guy, not to mention allot of dialog if you spare him that shows he is far from a "Snidely Whiplash" character. <_<