510 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

You have to remember that the Wardens were too few. The Wardens fight the darkspawn hordes when they have an army, they didn't have that yet. The prudent thing to do was wait until the arhcdemon reveal its self.

I can sort of see that from a practical standpoint.  I just don't see them doing that in actually.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which brings us to a very big mistake the Wardens committed. The fact that they had an Orlesian army behind them. That was a big imprudent mistake. The Wardens should have come on their own, not with an Orlesian army. The Wardens are supposed to be neutral, but by doing this, they gave the impression of being with Orlais. And that's what ticked Loghain off. The Wardens should have known that the Orlais \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Ferleden issue is sensitive and still an open wound. It was imprudent of them.

Which brings us to the puppetter. Celene I. It is clear she had plans of her own. She wanted Orlesian armies to intervene in Ferelden. Did she influence the Wardens into accepting that? We don't know. But we do know that there are Wardens in the imperial court. Celene is a manipulative mastermind, so I owuldn't put this past her.
Unwillingly, the Wardens became tools of Celene.
Mind you this is mostly speculation on my part. But I still think that the Wardens should not have come with Orlesian forces. Orlais should have been ready for an intervention, yes. But their armies should not have amassed at the borders and the Wardens should have come alone.

From what I gathered, the Wardens have support troops in every nation they have a presense in, with the exception of Ferelden, and maybe Antiva which apparently lacks a standing army.  The support troops are made up of that country's troops.  While it does seem stupid to bring them to Ferelden, they are the closest nation and the closest troops.  Sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.  I think the GW were probably a little too optimistic, though.  As a personal note, I wish I knew how many chevalier they were talking about.  Riordan says 2 dozen units, Loghain says 4 legions.  We don't know how many that is exactly.  If it's going by what a Roman legion was, then holy jesus, that was incredibly stupid of the GW.  You're talking anywhere from 4,000 to 24,000 chevalier.  But if a legion in Ferelden is less, then maybe not so much.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think duncan didn't try hard enough, if at all. Cailan was reckless yes, but he also held the Wardens in high regards. Couldn't Ducan convince him? Was Cailan that foolish? Maybe, we don't know.
What we do know is that Loghain tried. Whether Duncan  did is unknown.

I think Loghain was more in a position to tell Cailan to his face he was being a ******.  *shrugs*

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He should have been more imposing. He should have made Cailan see reality. There were not enough WArdens to ensure victory. Duncan had to make Cailan see that. But he didn't  seem to have tried enough.

Again that's "should have"s. It's easy for me to say that.
Duncan probably thought it would be best to have an enthusiastic king like Cailan support him rather than someone like Loghain.

I think that Duncan telling a brand new recruit how they're basically in trouble means he's already told Cailan the same thing and Cailan just doesn't listen.  The end result is the same, but to me Duncan seems far to practical to just sit and encourage Cailan's idiocy.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The fact that the Wardens were strongly associated with Orlais at that point, like I have argued before, probably made Loghain think that way.
In theory they would have something to gain. Perhaps Orlais promised the Wardens more power in Ferelden, if they retook control. Remember that the Wardens in Ferelden have a bad history in politics.

I could maybe agree to that, if most GW didn't seem to want to stay out of politics, especially in Ferelden.  Are there GW who feel differently?  Yes, as Riordan tells us with the Anderfel GW.  However, my biggest objection to that is that I absolutely CANNOT see Duncan agreeing to that.  I just can't.  No matter how I twist it, I think Duncan had way too much respect for Maric to ever do that to Maric's country and sons.  I know GW do whatever must be done, but I just can't see him agreeing to it.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And yes you are right about Duncan and Loghain relations. Another one of those seemingly tiny details that end up having huge condequences.

I think that's one of the real tragedies.  Duncan and Loghain probably would have gotten along really well had circumstances been different.  There are startlingly similar is many ways and I think had Maric still been alive, it would have been very different.  Maric was much stronger than Cailan, imo, and much more realistic.  I think it's one of the reasons I like Alistair so much.  He is so much like Maric before all the pain and heartache took it's toll.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think they are that different. At the end, I think people are agreeing here more than they are disagreeing. Or am I seeing the glass half full?

No, I think people for the most part are agreeing more than disagreeing.  I think there are just a few fundamental conclusions people come to that seperate them.  I, for one, agree with most of your conclusions.  I just have to disagree on the crucial difference that in the end Loghain's actions were justified.  I completely understand almost all of his decisions, I love him as a character, I truly feel for his pain, I mourn that he loses what he was and who he is and knows it, but in the end, there is no way for me to justify what he did even as I can understand why he did it.

Man, I wish all differences could be talked about like this.  It would probably make me hate the rest of humanity a whole lot less. 

Edit: Helps if I format quotes correctly.  -.-

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 25 février 2010 - 02:07 .

[Wolfaura]

On my second playthrough I decided to recruit Loghain. Alistair is my fave character. But I wanted to see all sides of the story no matter how much I hated feeling like I betrayed Alistair.

Everything is so well written the way your decisions affect you emotionally.

I thought I don't want Alistair suffering and wandering as a useless drunk, so I thought it best to put him out of his misery and execute him. It's much easier when you play a male dwarf and are not romantically involved with him.



Iam glad I did recruit Loghain as it's interesting talking to him and hearing his views on things.

I admire his motives, but do not like him or the way he's gone about doing things. I know I'll enjoy sacrificing him in the end. And theres now way Iam ever recruiting him again with any other character.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which brings us to a very big mistake the Wardens committed. The fact that they had an Orlesian army behind them. That was a big imprudent mistake. The Wardens should have come on their own, not with an Orlesian army. The Wardens are supposed to be neutral, but by doing this, they gave the impression of being with Orlais. And that's what ticked Loghain off. The Wardens should have known that the Orlais / Ferleden issue is sensitive and still an open wound. It was imprudent of them.

Which brings us to the puppetter. Celene I. It is clear she had plans of her own. She wanted Orlesian armies to intervene in Ferelden. Did she influence the Wardens into accepting that? We don't know. But we do know that there are Wardens in the imperial court. Celene is a manipulative mastermind, so I owuldn't put this past her.
Unwillingly, the Wardens became tools of Celene.
Mind you this is mostly speculation on my part. But I still think that the Wardens should not have come with Orlesian forces. Orlais should have been ready for an intervention, yes. But their armies should not have amassed at the borders and the Wardens should have come alone.

From what I gathered, the Wardens have support troops in every nation they have a presense in, with the exception of Ferelden, and maybe Antiva which apparently lacks a standing army.  The support troops are made up of that country's troops.  While it does seem stupid to bring them to Ferelden, they are the closest nation and the closest troops.  Sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.  I think the GW were probably a little too optimistic, though.  As a personal note, I wish I knew how many chevalier they were talking about.  Riordan says 2 dozen units, Loghain says 4 legions.  We don't know how many that is exactly.  If it's going by what a Roman legion was, then holy jesus, that was incredibly stupid of the GW.  You're talking anywhere from 4,000 to 24,000 chevalier.  But if a legion in Ferelden is less, then maybe not so much.

I think we mostly agree here. And yes it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario (isn't the entire game like this? lol).
In normal circumstances, Warden recieve military support from nations. But I don't know if they completely forgot what happened between Orlais and Ferelden, or were too optimistic like you said.
We know that Ferelden was giving them military support during the game. So I think the wisest thing they should have done is send the Wardens to Ferelden alone, while have Orlais on standby.

And yes I am not too sure about the numbers. But I am pretty sure it was a big army.
But it's not so much numbers as it is a matter of principle. Ferelden is fiercely indepedent and wounds of its war with Orlais have not yet been healed. I just can't see how the Wardens saw this as a good idea. Which is why I speculate that Celene had a hand in this. Or maybe Cailan's encouraging letters that allowed this.

I don't know. I am trying very hard not to put all the blame on Cailan, but sometimes it's just too damn impossible!

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think duncan didn't try hard enough, if at all. Cailan was reckless yes, but he also held the Wardens in high regards. Couldn't Ducan convince him? Was Cailan that foolish? Maybe, we don't know.
What we do know is that Loghain tried. Whether Duncan  did is unknown.

I think Loghain was more in a position to tell Cailan to his face he was being a ******.  *shrugs*.

He did. All he got was "You will remember who is king".
I usually like monarchies. But this is the one time where I absolutely hate a hereditary system.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The fact that the Wardens were strongly associated with Orlais at that point, like I have argued before, probably made Loghain think that way.
In theory they would have something to gain. Perhaps Orlais promised the Wardens more power in Ferelden, if they retook control. Remember that the Wardens in Ferelden have a bad history in politics.

I could maybe agree to that, if most GW didn't seem to want to stay out of politics, especially in Ferelden.  Are there GW who feel differently?  Yes, as Riordan tells us with the Anderfel GW.  However, my biggest objection to that is that I absolutely CANNOT see Duncan agreeing to that.  I just can't.  No matter how I twist it, I think Duncan had way too much respect for Maric to ever do that to Maric's country and sons.  I know GW do whatever must be done, but I just can't see him agreeing to it.

Remember that Duncan is the kinda of guy that would make a deal with a dying parent to get his son to become a Warden.
Mind you I love Duncan (and his beard). But I wouldn't put anythign past him. He might be sad. But I can see him doing this.

But remember that Loghain doesn't know Duncan like we do. Loghain could have suspected him. He would be probably wrong. But he would be wrong for the right reasons.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And yes you are right about Duncan and Loghain relations. Another one of those seemingly tiny details that end up having huge condequences.

I think that's one of the real tragedies.  Duncan and Loghain probably would have gotten along really well had circumstances been different.  There are startlingly similar is many ways and I think had Maric still been alive, it would have been very different.  Maric was much stronger than Cailan, imo, and much more realistic.  I think it's one of the reasons I like Alistair so much.  He is so much like Maric before all the pain and heartache took it's toll.

A thousands times yes. If Maric was there, none of that would have happened. That's why it's a real tragedy.
That's why I personally do not think Loghain was responsable for this mess, but was rather a victim of it. He might have made it worse, but his reaction was inevitable.

In the greek sense of the word, Loghain was tragic. A victim of fate as it were.

That's not to say that Loghain was impassive. He was a major player and he was confronted with circumstances that I think didn't allow him to be flexible. From what I understand, Loghain is the kind of guy that likes to keep his options open. That's why I think he is bordering depression. He just couldn't have as much options as he owuld have liked. He was too constrained.

That's why I think blaming everything on Loghain, while very easy to do, makes me feel I am missing something. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think they are that different. At the end, I think people are agreeing here more than they are disagreeing. Or am I seeing the glass half full?

No, I think people for the most part are agreeing more than disagreeing.  I think there are just a few fundamental conclusions people come to that seperate them.  I, for one, agree with most of your conclusions.  I just have to disagree on the crucial difference that in the end Loghain's actions were justified.  I completely understand almost all of his decisions, I love him as a character, I truly feel for his pain, I mourn that he loses what he was and who he is and knows it, but in the end, there is no way for me to justify what he did even as I can understand why he did it.

Man, I wish all differences could be talked about like this.  It would probably make me hate the rest of humanity a whole lot less. 

Edit: Helps if I format quotes correctly.  -.-

lol Yea tell me about it. Sadly, people think too much about "winning" and "losing" in discussions, while I don't think it's about that at all. It's about people enjoying a story and interpretting it in different ways. Diversity is good.

And I repsect your ultimate conclusion about Loghain's actions not being justified.
The nice thing about Loghain is that he doesn't blame the people who kill him. He accepts it. Which all around makes him awesome. 

I wouldn't be exagerrating if I said Loghain is probably the most polarising character I have ever seen in a fictional world.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 février 2010 - 02:47 .

[Masticetobbacco]

if I let loghain redeem himself, and alistair is king + queen with Anora



is alistair still mad at me, I hope im still friends with him

[LadyDamodred]

*nods*

I think in the end, I cannot justify his actions since he doesn't even try to do so himself, at least not in my "perfect" playthrough. (Which incidentally, I loved. I liked his in your face your face telling everyone to suck it far more than other play throughs when he did attempt to rationalize.)



I also think that in my ending, he is relieved. He knows I am capable, and after his fight with Alistair, he recognizes that some of who Maric was is there. Maybe even the best of Maric. He knows what he has become and is ready for the pain and heartache to be over. To know that the burden of protecting his beloved Ferelden is no longer his to bear alone, since it has been for really most of his life, and even more so since Maric died. I know others have different endings for him, and thus all cannot share this specific view of him, but it is the most fitting. For my char at least.



P.S. I like your video tribute video, btw.

[LadyDamodred]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

if I let loghain redeem himself, and alistair is king + queen with Anora

is alistair still mad at me, I hope im still friends with him

If you ask him if he's still angry, he says no.  But the tone of his voice...
Yeah, don't think he's gonna let that one go.  And for reasons I outlined earlier, I can't blame him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...

*nods*
I think in the end, I cannot justify his actions since he doesn't even try to do so himself, at least not in my "perfect" playthrough. (Which incidentally, I loved. I liked his in your face your face telling everyone to suck it far more than other play throughs when he did attempt to rationalize.)

I also think that in my ending, he is relieved. He knows I am capable, and after his fight with Alistair, he recognizes that some of who Maric was is there. Maybe even the best of Maric. He knows what he has become and is ready for the pain and heartache to be over. To know that the burden of protecting his beloved Ferelden is no longer his to bear alone, since it has been for really most of his life, and even more so since Maric died. I know others have different endings for him, and thus all cannot share this specific view of him, but it is the most fitting. For my char at least.

P.S. I like your video tribute video, btw.

Agreed. Loghain stands up to his beliefs and his actions, but doesn't shove them onto people's face as an excuse. He leaves it entirely to the Warden to decide. That, imo, is strength of character.

And thanks about the video

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

if I let loghain redeem himself, and alistair is king + queen with Anora

is alistair still mad at me, I hope im still friends with him

yeah, he gets over it. He's still a little miffed, just a bit disappinted, and probably regretting his flipping out and not helping to end the Blight. But he seems to be moving on, and is happy that Loghain died and at least paid for his crimes. If Loghain lives, he's still really annoyed, though not as pissed as he was at landsmeet. My guess is, regardless, he gets over it eventually.

[Alandros]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Alandros. I never denied it was a secretive plot. And I do not think he should have shared it with anyone, that would have been stupid on his part. It would have probably jeopordised his whole plan.

I don't see the relevence. For me deception isn't automatically evil or bad. You seem to think so, I don't know.
[/quote]

I can see that and I don't see deception as automatically evil or bad either.  In this case I see this deception as directly resulting in the death of Duncan (assuming he is dead), Cailan, many troops, and many Wardens.  This is why I personally conclude Loghain killed Cailan.  If he was less interested in his deceptions and more interested in doing things to save their lives he could have (such as working out possible fallback plans etc).  Instead I see Loghains ambition outweighing the value of life for Cailan, Duncan, and the many troops.  That I personally conclude as bad, though either way I personally have a hard time not attributing most of the blame for Cailan's death to Loghain.  I can see how one could not, but for me there just seems to be too many options Loghian had that would have prevented his death and on top of that Cailan's death is highly too useful for Loghain for him to not have acted in the way he did to get him killed (which suggests to me he should bare at least some responsibility for his death).

Now whether Cailan deserves some blame for that, or possibly Duncan.  Maybe. Though they were also acting under their trust of Loghain.  They trusted Loghain would respond to the beacon and not abandon them.  Loghain fostered that trust.  This is why personally put the bulk of blame for Cailan's death on Loghain, but this is all comes down to opinion.

[quote]Alandros wrote...
[quote]
As for the Wardens. Think about it. Was what he said that wrong?
[/quote]

Yes, what he said was a huge stretch at the very least.  It is apparent what Loghain's view of the Wardens are and it is obvious why Loghain may convince himself into seeing it that way.  But to declare them to be killed and as betraying the King is a stretch even for him.  He was covering up deceptions with deceptions at this point (on top of poisoning Eamon I would add), with Howe as one of his advisors who did even more nasty things.[/quote]

Because he thought the Wardens were in cahoots with Orlais. We don't really know how wrong he is. Especially considering that there are Wardens in the Imperial court in Orlais, he might not be far off. In addition to Orlais being one of the larger Warden recipients.

He might have been wrong, but he was right to suspect.
[/quote]

Right to suspect but he did a lot more than suspect, he declared the Wardens as betrayers and killers of the King and sentenced them to death.  Suspect I agree with, going that far, to me that goes far beyond suspicion but into both paranoid action and actions to cover up his own doing.  Part of his duty is to protect his King, instead he abandoned him. Arguably his duty to Ferelden is greater, but my point simply lies in that Loghain has a blame to bare for the death of the King, not whether that was the right thing to do or not.  My original statement you responded to was simply me stating Loghain killed the King (or possibly re-phrased to Loghain being primarily responsible for such, etc).

[quote]
No the natural thigng for the Wardens to do is remain at the back and wait for the archdemon to appear.
[/quote]

I disagree.  Duncan never seems to be the type to wait at the back for just the archdemon.  He often states the Wardens duty is to end the Blight but to also fight Darkspawn (whether it's a Blight or not).  Their sole purpose isn't just to kill an archdemon, arguably their most important purpose (arguably again), but they are darkspawn killing machines and Duncan seems to put himself into positions to kill darkspawn quite often even without an archdemon.  If Wardens are at the front I can see them saving many lives since they are much more experienced and efficient at killing darkspawn.

[quote]
Duncan took advantage of Cailan's infatuation with him. He never told the king not to be reckless. All we see is Duncan nodding his head to Cailan, while Loghain was arguing trying to save his life.[/quote]

Absolutely... and Loghain's attempt to "save his life" was weak at best...  He only attempted to save his life in words and not in actions and that is very weak to me even if it should be attributed to him.  Duncan did take advantage of Cailan, Loghain did as well, he took advantage of his desire to fight at the front lines and his trust in Loghain to back him up... that desire and trust resulted in his death.  I think Cailain's failings due sit with his desire for glory, but his greater failing is trusting in the loyalty of Loghain since Cailan could be reckless and still survive, but not having the support of Loghain is sure to bring death in a battle eventually (any King not having the promised support of his primary military commander would lead to this I would argue).

So everyone seemed to manipulate Cailan to their wishes, Loghain seemed to take the most extreme path that resulted in the Kings death.

[quote]
Loghain's poisoning of Eammon was never intented to kill him. He thought that eammon was a negative influence on Cailan, so he wanted him out of the picture so he can make Cailan see reason. He failed. But at least he didn't kill Eammon, like he should have I would say.[/quote]

Fair enough, though I'd argue that if you poison anyone you are willing to accept that person may in fact die as a result.  That does show the extents of deception Loghain was willing to go for his plan.  Instead of winning the King over with words and proving his loyalty, he did so with poison and abandoning the King to die.  Whether or not that is right or wrong who knowns (I'm not sure where I stand) but I do think Loghains actions direclty resulted in the Kings death.

[quote]
Yes, Loghain used the Wardens as scapegoats. And I think they are indirectly responsable for Cailan even being more of an idiot than he already is.[/quote]

I'm not sure whether I agree with you or not.  Duncan knew what the Wardens were capable of and he seems to express to Cailan that they aren't magical and such.  Cailan deluded himself despite Duncan going against that.  Duncan does in fact know what the Wardens are capable of and he seems to support their strength in fighting the darkspawn and need to end the Blight.  I see no error in that since it's true.  Loghain falsely limited the Warden to being not necessary (not realizing they are in fact needed to end the Blight).  So Loghians lack of faith in the Wardens vs. Cailans overwhelming faith in the Wardens (even despite Duncan fighting that somewhat), which one's worse?  Well I would personally say Loghain's.  Since Wardens are indeed needed to end a Blight and if Loghain succeeded then all Wardens would be dead and the Blight could not be ended.  So though I personally believe both Loghain and Cailan are equally full of their false ideals objectively Cailans seem to be safer than Loghains (involving knowledge neither of them likely have).  

[quote]
But had Loghain known that the WArdens are necessary. He would have never done it. Had the Wardens explained to Loghain why and how only they can know if there is a blight and only they can kill an Archdemon, then perhaps none of that owuld have happened.[/quote]

True, but Loghain also incriminated the Wardens based on suspicions.  If Loghain wasn't so deluded and so against Cailan and cailan's obsession with glory that he had to use the Warden's as a scapegoat then they wouldn't be in that situation either.  Lot's of what ifs.  The Wardens keeping why they are needed as secret I think is the lesser evil of Loghains and Cailan's mistakes.  I also personally feel Loghains secrets  and plans are more overtly against those who trust him than Cailans personal obsessions with glory, which is why I would personally fault Loghain as much or more than Cailan (but that's just my opinion).

[quote]
It's not feasible of course. But if Loghain kept secrets, so did the Wardens.

[/quote]

Absolutely, but the Warden's secrets were much less overtly destructive.  Loghain plotted against those that trusted him, the Wardens simply didn't share all the information they could have.  I think Loghains intentions were right, but his acts were not (Loghian words it himself as his tactics being in error).

[goofygoff]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Masticetobbacco wrote...

if I let loghain redeem himself, and alistair is king + queen with Anora

is alistair still mad at me, I hope im still friends with him

yeah, he gets over it. He's still a little miffed, just a bit disappinted, and probably regretting his flipping out and not helping to end the Blight. But he seems to be moving on, and is happy that Loghain died and at least paid for his crimes. If Loghain lives, he's still really annoyed, though not as pissed as he was at landsmeet. My guess is, regardless, he gets over it eventually.

Part of me loves his snark when he tells you your adoring public is waiting for you.  The line is just dripping with sarcasm.

Though I wish we also had the option of saying something like, "Oh by the way, thanks a pantload for all your "help" defeating the Archdemon."  Air quotes and all. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alandros, I think we mostly agree on everything really, so I will be brief. The main difference is, I think Cailan is more responsable for his own death than Loghain is (not to say he is completely innocent of it). You think Loghain killed Cailan.

Depending on perspective, I think both interpretations are correct.

The death of the Wardens on the otherhand is mostly Loghain's fault yes. But as I have argued with LadyDamodred, the Wardens shouldn't have come with an Orlesian army behind them. They should have known this is a sensitive issue for Ferelden. Had the Wardens not, unwillingly perhaps, associated themselves with Orlais, perhaps Loghain would have been more at ease with them. But as you said, it's "what ifs".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 février 2010 - 08:38 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Another Loghain argument? People went over this hundreds of times.



Anyway. I do hope he plays a good role in DA. Awakening.

[shedevil3001]

he wont in mine i killed him lol he was just to evil too my fhn rewarding the man that killed her family

[Witcha]

I realise people are attracted to 'anti-hero'-ish characters, but you folk are deluded if you seriously thought everything Loghain did or said was right. He had good reasons to hate the Orlesians, but as pointed out multiple times in the plot he nearly doomed Ferelden because of his inability to let go of that hatred. Heck, you can tell much of his dialogue(especially in RtO) is being coloured by his opinion of Orlais. He even admits as much after he joins you.

As for the idea of an Orlesian plot, I think you're looking too much into it, like Loghain did. Grey Wardens are politically neutral, it was the Orlesian Wardens that were coming to help Ferelden and not the Orlesian imperial army(though Cailan invited them as well). And about Cailan cheating on Anora with the Empress; it certainly seemed Celene(and maybe Eamon) were planning a marriage alliance, but it doesn't look like Cailan agreed(Eamon's letter chides him for his stubbornness and asks him to reconsider).

Even if Cailan was going to marry Celene(and he wasn't) how would that be a bad thing? Ferelden and Orlais would be united, a Fereldan would become Emperor of a large empire and male descendants of the Theirin bloodline would rule both nations. As for the infidelity, this isn't a fairytale good-and-evil world. Even King Maric's marriage was purely political(like Cailan's) and he was known to have at least one affair. Anora even admits that Cailan did have 'a few women on the side'.

Modifié par Witcha, 26 février 2010 - 12:17 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

It was sooo satisfying to finally cut that douche nozzle.

[shedevil3001]

Witcha wrote...

I realise people are attracted to 'anti-hero'-ish characters, but you folk are deluded if you seriously thought everything Loghain did or said was right. He had good reasons to hate the Orlesians, but as pointed out multiple times in the plot he nearly doomed Ferelden because of his inability to let go of that hatred. Heck, you can tell much of his dialogue(especially in RtO) is being coloured by his opinion of Orlais. He even admits as much after he joins you.

As for the idea of an Orlesian plot, I think you're looking too much into it, like Loghain did. Grey Wardens are politically neutral, it was the Orlesian Wardens that were coming to help Ferelden and not the Orlesian imperial army(though Cailan invited them as well). And about Cailan cheating on Anora with the Empress; it certainly seemed Celene(and maybe Eamon) were planning a marriage alliance, but it doesn't look like Cailan agreed(Eamon's letter chides him for his stubbornness and asks him to reconsider).

Even if Cailan was going to marry Celene(and he wasn't) how would that be a bad thing? Ferelden and Orlais would be united, a Fereldan would become Emperor of a large empire and male descendants of the Theirin bloodline would rule both nations. As for the infidelity, this isn't a fairytale good-and-evil world. Even King Maric's marriage was purely political(like Cailan's) and he was known to have at least one affair. Anora even admits that Cailan did have 'a few women on the side'.

well said thats what i was trying to say almost but you explained it better than i did but yes i agree his action no matter what he did it wasnt justified alot of people died or suffered because of his decions which in my opinion means he shouldnt have been in charge he was a power hungry fool who let fereldon and his king down but on the plus side he was a well written character

[Elanareon]

Loghain is very old. Very, very old... He is suppose to be older than Arl Eamon! I think its time for him to die. lol

[shedevil3001]

he does in my game always dies i just cant forgive or forget what he did lol

[Kohaku]

Anyone who really knows me here knows I love Loghain. I played the game first and then read the books. He is one of my favorite characters in the game. Hence, I have to save him in a game run so I can see him in the expansion pack.

[shedevil3001]

it would of been better if you could keep him alive and keep alistair then maybe i may of let him live at least once in a playthrough just to see how it played out but i didnt want to betray alistair after everything he had been through already it just felt wrong

[Ahisgewaya]

shedevil3001 wrote...

omg hated alistair "shakes fist in anger" how could you he was sweet and put his duty first the poor guy deserves respect mean as i'm his queen "off with your head"

While I don't hate Alistair, I liked him a LOT more Before the landsmeet.
He really is a whiny little **** then.

I intended to execute Loghain, but not before the big battle in which he could prove usefull (at the very least keeping him alive is good for morale as a lot of the humans love him for some reason)

But then Alistair goes "NO! WAH! WAH! WE MUST EXECUTE HIM NOW THIS INSTANT! I"M LEAVING I"M NOT PLAYING WITH YOU 
ANYMORE YOU JERK WAH WAH!"

[Ahisgewaya]

Although I don't think making him a grey warden is a good idea either.

I really wish we had the option to say "We all need to put this crap aside for now and focus on the blight. We can decide who kills who later."

[Witcha]

Ahisgewaya wrote...
But then Alistair goes "NO! WAH! WAH! WE MUST EXECUTE HIM NOW THIS INSTANT! I"M LEAVING I"M NOT PLAYING WITH YOU 
ANYMORE YOU JERK WAH WAH!"

He's less whiny if you harden him. Then he actually sounds a little reasonable when he explains that he saw being a Gray Warden as being the greatest honor and how you ruined it for him and so he can't stay.

[R-F]

he won't be making a cameo in my game, i relieved him of his head as often as i could.