510 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahisgewaya]

Although I must admit the real reason it was hard for me to hate Loghain is becasue he's voiced by the same guy who was the voice for Kain in the "Legacy of Kain" series. I love that game series.

[shedevil3001]

no matter what i do i just cant upset alistair so i always end off killing loghain not fair bioware could of give us another option to keep both of them til the end of the game then loghain get hanged for his treatchary

[KnightofPhoenix]

Witcha wrote...

I realise people are attracted to 'anti-hero'-ish characters, but you folk are deluded if you seriously thought everything Loghain did or said was right. He had good reasons to hate the Orlesians, but as pointed out multiple times in the plot he nearly doomed Ferelden because of his inability to let go of that hatred. Heck, you can tell much of his dialogue(especially in RtO) is being coloured by his opinion of Orlais. He even admits as much after he joins you.

No, if you talk to him after sparing him, he says he did everything out of love for Ferelden, not hate for Orlais.
His failure is not purely due to him. Uldred's failure. The banns thinking it was the perfect time to rebel. All that put his plan to jeopardy.

Witcha wrote...
As for the idea of an Orlesian plot, I think you're looking too much into it, like Loghain did. Grey Wardens are politically neutral, it was the Orlesian Wardens that were coming to help Ferelden and not the Orlesian imperial army(though Cailan invited them as well). And about Cailan cheating on Anora with the Empress; it certainly seemed Celene(and maybe Eamon) were planning a marriage alliance, but it doesn't look like Cailan agreed(Eamon's letter chides him for his stubbornness and asks him to reconsider).

Even if Cailan was going to marry Celene(and he wasn't) how would that be a bad thing? Ferelden and Orlais would be united, a Fereldan would become Emperor of a large empire and male descendants of the Theirin bloodline would rule both nations. As for the infidelity, this isn't a fairytale good-and-evil world. Even King Maric's marriage was purely political(like Cailan's) and he was known to have at least one affair. Anora even admits that Cailan did have 'a few women on the side'.

You never read too much into anything in politics. When the fate of a nation is in your hands, you don't ignore any potential threat.
The Orlesian army was with the Orlesian wardcens and they were going to come in together. The biggest mistake the wardens ever did, they should have come alone.
And Wardens are politically neutral? That's the official story. That's not what happened in Ferelden. Nor is it true in the Anderfels. Plus, we know there are Wardens in the imperial court of Orlais.

He refused Eammon's request a year before he started talking with Celene. It's not proof that he rejected her. So yes, he was planing that, that's why the developpers said we are going to discover his political agenda. There is 0 reason for Celene to talk to him this way unless they were planing to marry.

As for Ferelden and Orlais "uniting" being a good idea. Anyone with a tiny grasp in politics can see how this is bad.
Fereldan:
- Weak nation.
- Small population.
- Poor
- Nobility easily divided
- Ruled by an imbecile, who is easily toyed with by Anora.

Orlais:
- A superpower.
- large population
- rich
- nobility united
- Ruled by a political mastermind that makes Anora look like a child playing politics.
+ has control over the Chantry

It's not a union. It's annexation. Ferelden would be absorbed by Orlais. It's axiomatic. And for what? For Cailan to play Emperor while Celene manipulates him like the child he is?
What is good for Cailan is not good for Ferelden. Ferelden is fiercely indepedent. You think it's a good idea for Cailan to throw it away just like that, all to put an imperial crown on his empty head?

[goofygoff]

Apologies if this has already been hashed to death (then again, what hasn't?), but something has been bugging me.

In RtO, a lot of people seem to think that Loghain was one, taken by surprise when he the letters and two, saw only what he wanted to see.  And this supposed shock is being used to discount the possiblitily that his paranoia might have been justified.

As to the former, I'm not entirely convinced that he didn't at least have some suspicions. Especially after you talk to Cailan's guard in Ostagar when he says the King and Loghain had been arguing about the Queen. We know Cailan had his side dishes, from talking to Anora, but at least from her POV, it was in the past. And after she mentions that what had started as a political marriage eventually became more, I got the impression that once they fell in love, he didn't stray. Or at least he became more discreet.

So if Cailan and Loghain were arguing about Anora at Ostagar, I don't think it had anything to do with Cailan's previous indiscretions, but rather something more recent.

Regarding the latter, I took Alistair and Wynne on my first RtO playthrough, and pretty much came to the same conclusion as Loghain. In fact, I was surprised no one in that group had anything to say about the matter, other than Alistair's, "Yippee Orlesians…Cailan was full of awesome!"  While it's not iron-clad proof that Cailan was intending to marry Celene, I believe the evidence strongly points that way.  But it was left vague enough that anyone can be right.

IMO, while I don't think he was aware of the specifics, I definitely think Loghain knew something was amiss. And, whether it's in his mind or reality, the letters just confirmed his (most likely vague) suspicions.

Modifié par goofygoff, 26 février 2010 - 05:58 .

[Witcha]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, if you talk to him after sparing him, he says he did everything out of love for Ferelden, not hate for Orlais.
His failure is not purely due to him. Uldred's failure. The banns thinking it was the perfect time to rebel. All that put his plan to jeopardy.[/quote]Ask him 'What would you have done if you won?' to get his paranoia about securing the border before fighting the Blight. Ask 'Why do you hate the Orlesians so much?' for his perspective. And at high approval levels he admits he may have been wrong, too.

You never read too much into anything in politics. When the fate of a nation is in your hands, you don't ignore any potential threat.
The Orlesian army was with the Orlesian wardcens and they were going to come in together. The biggest mistake the wardens ever did, they should have come alone.
And Wardens are politically neutral? That's the official story. That's not what happened in Ferelden. Nor is it true in the Anderfels. Plus, we know there are Wardens in the imperial court of Orlais.[/quote]Sophia Dryden was effectively disowned by the other Wardens because she stuck her nose in politics and started a rebellion. Riordan came from Orlais and nothing in his dialogue suggests that the Wardens had any plans to occupy Ferelden. And he dissapproved of the Anderfels Wardens' political agenda. If the same was true of Orlais he would have mentioned it.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote..
He refused Eammon's request a year before he started talking with Celene. It's not proof that he rejected her. So yes, he was planing that, that's why the developpers said we are going to discover his political agenda. There is 0 reason for Celene to talk to him this way unless they were planing to marry.[/quote]I've thought about it and recalling old dialogue from the game you may be right here.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote..
As for Ferelden and Orlais "uniting" being a good idea. Anyone with a tiny grasp in politics can see how this is bad.
Fereldan:
- Weak nation.
- Small population.
- Poor
- Nobility easily divided
- Ruled by an imbecile, who is easily toyed with by Anora.

Orlais:
- A superpower.
- large population
- rich
- nobility united
- Ruled by a political mastermind that makes Anora look like a child playing politics.
+ has control over the Chantry

It's not a union. It's annexation. Ferelden would be absorbed by Orlais. It's axiomatic. And for what? For Cailan to play Emperor while Celene manipulates him like the child he is?
What is good for Cailan is not good for Ferelden. Ferelden is fiercely indepedent. You think it's a good idea for Cailan to throw it away just like that, all to put an imperial crown on his empty head?
[/quote]Why do you have to see everything from Loghai's point of view? Look at it the other way: Ferelden annexes Orlais. Assuming the monarchy in Orlais is patriarchal, Cailan, a Ferelden, would have become Emperor of both nations. If you read the description of Loghain's belt('Borders Yet to Be') you'll know he was planning to expand Ferelden by military force. Why is it worse if this was done by marriage rather than war? Yes, Cailan would be a figurehead with his wife doing most of the ruling, but that was no different from him and Anora.  And in the future it is males of the Theirin dynasty that would rule Orlais. It'd be the ultimate victory.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Witcha wrote...
Sophia Dryden was effectively disowned by the other Wardens because she stuck her nose in politics and started a rebellion. Riordan came from Orlais and nothing in his dialogue suggests that the Wardens had any plans to occupy Ferelden. And he dissapproved of the Anderfels Wardens' political agenda. If the same was true of Orlais he would have mentioned it.

It doesn't change the fact that it happened.
And I arleady told you, there are Wardens in the Orlesian Imperial Court. It's way to easy to influence them into being political.
Only in theory are the Wardens politically neutral. The reality isn't always so.

AS for Loghain securing the borders with Orlais. Of course. Ever ynation has to secure its borders, especially with a neighbour like Orlais.

Witcha wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote..
As for Ferelden and Orlais "uniting" being a good idea. Anyone with a tiny grasp in politics can see how this is bad.
Fereldan:
- Weak nation.
- Small population.
- Poor
- Nobility easily divided
- Ruled by an imbecile, who is easily toyed with by Anora.

Orlais:
- A superpower.
- large population
- rich
- nobility united
- Ruled by a political mastermind that makes Anora look like a child playing politics.
+ has control over the Chantry

It's not a union. It's annexation. Ferelden would be absorbed by Orlais. It's axiomatic. And for what? For Cailan to play Emperor while Celene manipulates him like the child he is?
What is good for Cailan is not good for Ferelden. Ferelden is fiercely indepedent. You think it's a good idea for Cailan to throw it away just like that, all to put an imperial crown on his empty head?

Why do you have to see everything from Loghai's point of view? Look at it the other way: Ferelden annexes Orlais. Assuming the monarchy in Orlais is patriarchal, Cailan, a Ferelden, would have become Emperor of both nations. If you read the description of Loghain's belt('Borders Yet to Be') you'll know he was planning to expand Ferelden by military force. Why is it worse if this was done by marriage rather than war? Yes, Cailan would be a figurehead with his wife doing most of the ruling, but that was no different from him and Anora.  And in the future it is males of the Theirin dynasty that would rule Orlais. It'd be the ultimate victory.

*facepalm*.
First, the dynasty isn't necessarily patriarchal. Maric's mother, the rebel Queen, is from Therein blood and she isn't a male, she continued the bloodline.
What "ultimate victory"? How do you honestly think a weak nation like Ferleden can annex Orlais?! Give me one historical example of such a thing happening.

What you are assuming is that what is good for Cailan as a person, or what is good for the Therein = what is good for Ferelden.
I say that's BS. Ferelden is a nation that has fought for its independence and sovereignity. And now it would give it away so it can be controlled by the much more powerful Orlais? And for what? For Cailan to call himself Emperor? You think Cailan being Emperor of Orlais would mean Ferelden somehow won? How, if it would have lost its sovereignity, its indepedence and its integrity, being absorbed by a much more powerful nation? 
Sovereignity is the one thing no state willingly gives up. What Cailan was doing is state suicide, nothing more.  

And yes there is a difference between Cailan being manipulated by Anora, the rightful Queen of Ferelden, and him being manipulated by Celene, the Empress of Orlais. You honestly don't see the difference?

Sorry, but I value my common sense and my political / historical knoweldge way too much for me to even consider this being a good idea. I normally think everyoen is entitled to his opinions, but what you are saying is simply way too naive and bankcrupt of any actual thinking on the matter.

As for Loghain's map. Nothign suggest he was materially preparing for it. Thinking about it perhaps. But he never pressured MAric to do any of that, and he could have. And even if he did plan to expand, he was not going to sell his nation's indepedence for the sake of a crown.

EDIT: And I am not seeing anything from Loghain's point of view. I am looking at it as a person who actually knows politics and history well enough to analyse the issue and judge it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 février 2010 - 04:42 .

[Wackysmack]

Well I am certainly looking forward to whatever part he will play in Awakening. He has always been tied for my favorite character. I can never choose who I like more him or Morrigan. Once I learned he could be recruited I immediately kicked Alistair to the side every play through that I did except one. After reading The Stolen Throne I just became even more impressed with his background and character development. I just wish you could have him tag along from time to time in Awakening.

[Nobody Important]

I am very excited to see him in awakening. My favorite dragon age character after Morrigan.

[Witcha]

KnightofPhoenix, it seems you are falsely assuming that Cailan marrying Celene would restore Ferelden to the state of slavery and oppression seen in Maric's time. You think Cailan would allow his(and they would his, as in under his command) Chevaliers that kind of freedom in his birthplace? Ferelden has had its unique cultural and political identity for centuries. Having its King be the ruler of another kingdom as well isn't going to erase that.

And Maric's mother was Rebel Queen after her husband died, presumably till her son was old enough to take over.

And you're not going to score any points in an argument by portraying yourself as a high intellectual and assuming that you're right beyond doubt from the get go.

You completely ignored my point about Riordan(If the Wardens in Orlais were no different from the Anderfels he wouldn't be so dismissive of them) and as for Loghain in my most recent playthrough(a few hours ago) he admitted making  'tactical errors' when I pointed out that he was fighting an Orlesian threat that wasn't there(along with a couple other dialogue options related to his views).

Modifié par Witcha, 27 février 2010 - 11:16 .

[shedevil3001]

i think its a case of agree to disagree on this one everyone has their own opinion and if everyone had the same opinion then there would only be one post over and over again. Myself i believe loghain was a power hungry over driven by hate evil man who cost alot of people their lives nothing he says or does makes up for what he did and that includes rewarding arl howe after in the game murding my family of my human female noble but like i said thats just my opinion the ends dont justify the means what he did was wrong simple as

[BellaStrega]

I just can't taken anyone seriously who argues that since the humans in Ferelden treated elves as second-class citizens that it was okay to sell them into slavery and not unethical or immoral at all. Seriously, I think that really undermines your argument that what Loghain did was justified or justifiable. Some Wardens as played by some of you might feel it was justifiable, but "We treat these people like garbage so it's ethically okay to treat them even more harshly" is a really self-serving philosophy.

I am also curious, when you're arguing about cultural relativism, why aren't the elves' perspectives (don't want to be slaves) considered relevant in this?

Oh, I have no plans to let Loghain live in any of my play throughs, and I consider David Gaider's statements to be irrelevant when playing the game. I have no doubt that he's well-written and of course I like his voice actor, but it's hard to justify letting him go what with the poisoning, the slaves, the torture, the desertion. This is all the information you have when you're playing the game, after all.

Modifié par BellaStrega, 27 février 2010 - 02:30 .

[Maeves_Child]

I can't believe I missed this until now. It almost killed me getting through this entire thread.



The one thing that really sticks out to me in game, and had me rethinking my ideas about Loghain even prior to reading the novels was Cautherine's comment "Without Loghain there would be no Ferelden to defend." Its something I think is easily missed, especially considering the small tidbit of info in Loghain's in game codex entry.



Then I considered and read the novels, which I feel are really important to the DA experience. Despite the fact that the rebel army already had a general in Rowan's father, they came to rely of Loghain's plans very quickly. If he hadn't been there, Maric wouldn't have ever sat on his grandfather's throne. If Loghain hadn't been willing to give up the love of his life to Maric, for the greater good, Cailan would have never been born.



Now, is it true that Loghain has gone a bit off the deep end, with his hatred of Orlais allowing him to justify to himself that allowing horrible things is the right thing to do? Certainly. IF you are looking at it from the outside. But when your mother is raped and murdered in front of your eyes as a child, your father cut down by Chevaliers, your entire youth shaped by fighting off a people who have taken your freedom, your culture and want to take your life? How could a man ever truly get past that and say, 'oh sure, those Orlesians are all right folks' ?



He couldn't. I can't blame him.



I don't feel any need to justify what he did with tactical analysis or historical precedent. I instead see a man shaped by his life. Maybe that life was too hard for anyone to bear and come out the other side mentally whole and intact. Despite what he allowed to happen as regent, it's clearly shown in game even BEFORE you speak with him, by his behavior and expression (specifically when he doesn't have a giant audience -- think of the hiring Zevran scene) that he is NOT proud of any of this, but he's all tapped out. He has no more brilliant ideas and he's just trying to hold himself and Ferelden together by any means. He knows it's wrong; I think that's clear. He doesn't ask for mercy.



But evil? I think that's a stretch, at best. He's screwed up, clearly. He allows some horrible things to happen (I really doubt a lot of the worst of it was actually his IDEA, but I will admit that doesn't get him off the hook.) And is his love of "Ferelden" really nationalism, or perhaps a lifetime of seeing the strength and willingness of the people of this land, their strong culture, love of freedom and so forth that he's really fighting to preserve?



I don't for a second expect more people to start allowing him to live at the landsmeet because of anything I have to say. And considering Loghain's reaction if you choose to end his life, he's not all that broken up over it either. He's had enough. In a way, allowing him to live and making him a Grey Warden is another punishment, because it seems obvious to me that he is a very broken man. A lesser man would have ended his own life after all Loghain's experienced.



And yet, he (gleaning from novel interpretation) thinks he IS the lesser man, despite it all.



I just don't understand how one couldn't feel sympathy for him, even if you think he is the devil.

[shedevil3001]

true but after all hes been through to feel sympathy for a man that inflicted similar things to happen to other families like the human nobles (couslands) the poor elves and all the others that suffer because of him. He should of known better that if he suffered from all that happened to him why commit these acts and make others suffer just to serve his own purpose, shouldnt he have tried to help these people instead of hurting them?

well thats how i see it anyway but thats just my opinion

Modifié par shedevil3001, 27 février 2010 - 03:29 .

[Phantom_1]

Well it seems this thread is going in circles ,  ppl repeat same arguments over and over,   there will always be one side of coin and another bout Loghain  but this thread showed that Loghain is clearly one of most exciting and interesting character in DAO coz hes decisiouns and deeper contents of them is not easy to interpret but to get to that point ppl should consider more Loghain personal history and regard situation those decisiouns happend.

I think i would do same decisiouns as he did if i would be in same position as he was in that time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Witcha wrote...

KnightofPhoenix, it seems you are falsely assuming that Cailan marrying Celene would restore Ferelden to the state of slavery and oppression seen in Maric's time. You think Cailan would allow his(and they would his, as in under his command) Chevaliers that kind of freedom in his birthplace? Ferelden has had its unique cultural and political identity for centuries. Having its King be the ruler of another kingdom as well isn't going to erase that.

You honestly think Cailan has a choice? He was so easily manipulated by Anora, you honestly think he can stand up to Celene I, who has been described as being like Catherine the Great (who incidently killed her own husband)?
We are not talking about the state of slavery at the time of Maric. We are talking about Ferelden losing its sovereignity and indepedence. It doesn't matter if Orlais showers Ferelden with gold, the reality remains that Ferelden would lose both.

What you fail to realise, is that for any nation, two things are never compromised. Independence and sovereignity. Orlais annexing Ferelden would result in the loss of both. Because naturally, as the 2 crown merge, the government would be centralised around Orlais, being the more pwoerful, the wealthier and the more culturally influencial. It's axiomatic. 

Let me provide you with a real world example (something that you will. never be able to provide).
The uniuon between Egypt and Syria in 1958. There exists different circumstances, but the logic and mechanism was the same.

Syria:
- A weak nation
- Weak military
- Divided internally
- Low demographics
- Not so rich
- weak leadership
(almost exactly like Ferelden)

Egypt:
- Regional power
- 2nd strongest military in the region
- united internally
- very high demographics
- at that time, it was faring well economically, thanks to projects like the Aswan damn
- Very strong leadership, personified by the highly charismatic Gamal Abd Al Nasser
+ Ideological power, Egypt was the center of pan-Arabism
(almost exdactly like Orlais)

What happened when they united in 1958? The natural thing of course. The stronger nation (Egypt) annexed the weaker nation (Syria). Until Syrians revolted in 1961 and the union failed. 
And add the fact that Egypt did not invade Syria 30 years before. Add that both of them are ethnically very close. and the union still ended up with Egypt annexing Syria and eventually be dissolved. Syria committed State suicide by accepting this "union".

So here you have it. A classic example of a weak nation "uniting" with a stronger one. That is the naturaly result of a union between Orlais and Ferelden.

Now you show me an example of a union between a much stronger state with a much weaker state still somehow preserving the independence and sovereignity of the weaker nation.
Otherwise, your point has no basis in history or logic.

As for culture. You forget that Orlais is more culturally influencial. Plus, it has the Chantry under its control. Orlais oculd very easily exert cultural influence on Ferelden should the annexation happen. It has religion, wealth (trade influences culture), demographics (Orlais could very easily bid of Orlesian settlements within Ferelden). And there you go. Ferelden would lose its cultural integrity via Orlais' soft power, rather than military strength.

And I am not potraying myself as an intellectual, I am proving it.

Witcha wrote...

You completely ignored my point about Riordan(If the Wardens in Orlais were no different from the Anderfels he wouldn't be so dismissive of them) and as for Loghain in my most recent playthrough(a few hours ago) he admitted making  'tactical errors' when I pointed out that he was fighting an Orlesian threat that wasn't there(along with a couple other dialogue options related to his views).

I didn't ignore it. You ignored what I just told you. There are Wardens in the imperial court. They can very easily not become politically neutral if Celene wanted that. And second, Riordan isn't the highest ranking Grey wArden around. He isn't supposed to know everything. If the Wardens are capable of interfering in politics in the Anderfels, then they are capable of doing so anywhere else. Just in theory, they won't do that. But theory and practise often do not overlap. And Ferelden had an example of a Grey Warden interfering in politics. So Loghain is to dismiss that compeltely?

He wasn't fighting Orlesians. He was securing the borders. Difference. Yes he made an error thinking that the Orlesian threat was imminent. Which wasn't the case.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 février 2010 - 05:35 .

[Vicious]

Sorry, but I value my common sense and my political / historical knoweldge way too much for me to even consider this being a good idea. I normally think everyoen is entitled to his opinions, but what you are saying is simply way too naive and bankrupt of any actual thinking on the matter.

QFT. Everything we know about Ferelden basically says that the second Cailan became 'Emperor' Ferelden would fall apart - And Cailan would be leading Orlesian armies against his own people. I don't think that's what Maric fought for.



Theirin bloodline is just that - a bloodline. It has nothing to do with how worthwhile or intelligent the rulers actually are. Maric was a good man but he was also extremely lucky. Cailan may have been a good man but he was unlucky and utterly bereft of common sense, political intelligence or authority.



Everyone told Cailan what to do. Anyone remember when he said he wasn't allowed to go into the Alienage? I wanted to sock him in the face right there. You're the KING, moron!





Anyway, Cailan marrying Celene would be the death of Ferelden. And Cailan would have likely died fighting his own people. Ironically, it's better he died fighting the Darkspawn and doing something worthwhile, than destroying his country and spitting on everything his family was famous for.

[J-Reyno]

All ethics aside, I'm definitely in the REALLY looking forward to more Loghain pool.

I did many playthroughs of this game, executing Loghain every single time.  But on the last time around, where my character practically bosom-buddies with Alistair, I decided to let him live.  Idk why, but I got this urge to hear what he had to say, and honestly he kind of creeped me out - I got this feeling that he was both honorable and delusional at the same time.  Throughout the game during the cutscenes with him I really felt that he was unstable, and I always wondered whether he was conflicted as to the actions he was taking.  The assassination, for example - Loghain to me seemed less than enthusiastic about it and really just spat his agreement to "get it done" as if in distaste.  I'm not justifying anything here, I'm just evaluating his character.  From there I think he just continued to slip, and I thought it was pretty amazing that you had the chance the recruit him and converse a little bit.  As a character, Loghain was by far my favorite.  He seemed so human.

He's the character I want to see the most in Awakening, which is strange as my character's former best friend (Alistair), and lover (Leliana) take a close 2nd and 3rd.  I couldn't even begin to explain how happy I'd have been if he was an optional companion depending on your decisions, what with him being a Warden and all. -sigh-

[Ahisgewaya]

Phantom_1 wrote...

Well it seems this thread is going in circles ,  ppl repeat same arguments over and over,   there will always be one side of coin and another bout Loghain  but this thread showed that Loghain is clearly one of most exciting and interesting character in DAO coz hes decisiouns and deeper contents of them is not easy to interpret but to get to that point ppl should consider more Loghain personal history and regard situation those decisiouns happend.

I think i would do same decisiouns as he did if i would be in same position as he was in that time.

While it's true that it is going in circles, I'm personally loving the discussion. Even though I have killed Loghain nearly every time, I really like how deep of a character he is. This is one of the things that makes me like Bioware games so much, the villains are beleivable. 

[Witcha]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Now you show me an example of a union between a much stronger state with a much weaker state still somehow preserving the independence and sovereignity of the weaker nation.
Otherwise, your point has no basis in history or logic. [/quote]
You know what? I don't like your tone. It's nothing personal. I concede that you're the greater historian, intellectual and so on, but you're too presumptuous for my liking. And as it turns out, I do have the example you seemingly believed I was too dumb or immature to come up with.

Akbar the Great(1542-1605) was considered the greatest emperor of the Mogul Empire in India. While he used his fair share of military force to expand the empire, unlike his father and grandfather he conquered his greatest enemies, the Rajput clans, largely through marriage alliances. He married the daughters of many Rajput kings and chieftains, thereby bringing them under the Mogul empire. They agreed because while he was their overlord and emperor, they retained sovereign control over their kingdoms and maintained the regional cultural independence of their people as different individual states within the Mogul empire. So much so that after the reign of Akbar's tyrannical grandson Aurangzeb many of them were able to rally their people to rebel and break away.

I have little doubt you will thoroughly analyse the above, state counter-opinions from various sources and even if satisfied, have with half a dozen more examples to justify your opinion with. I don't expect to change your opinion, so let's just agree to disagree here. If you still think of me as naive and incompetent kindly ignore me from now on.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I didn't ignore it. You ignored what I just told you. There are Wardens in the imperial court. They can very easily not become politically neutral if Celene wanted that. And second, Riordan isn't the highest ranking Grey wArden around. He isn't supposed to know everything. If the Wardens are capable of interfering in politics in the Anderfels, then they are capable of doing so anywhere else. Just in theory, they won't do that. But theory and practise often do not overlap. [/quote]It's natural for the Grey Wardens to have some clout with the ruler/court of any nation they have a prescence in considering they need their permission and funding to operate on their territory. Likewise the Fereldan Wardens under Duncan had an HQ in the royal palace. And if junior, insignificant Riordan was able to determine the political leanings of the Wardens of Anderfels(an order he wasn't even part of) after just a single visit to Weisshaupt, I very much doubt he would be blissfully unaware of the Wardens'  policies in the country he'd lived in for over a decade.

I have no doubt the Orlesian monarchy was far more supportive of the Wardens than the Fereldan one. But to expect the Orlesian Wardens to willingly serve the government's own political agendas in return for their permission and funding is, well, a stretch. Not to mention if the Wardens truly operated like that they'd end up fighting one another between Blights whenever there was an international conflict.
[/quote]

Modifié par Witcha, 27 février 2010 - 08:50 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Vicious wrote...
Everyone told Cailan what to do. Anyone remember when he said he wasn't allowed to go into the Alienage? I wanted to sock him in the face right there. You're the KING, moron!

You know, this is part of the reason I had Alistair made King. Do I think Alsitair is less of an idiot than Cailen? Only slightly. He says himself he would rather follow. But Anora plus Loghain equals a very cunning monochracy. Considering the fact that if I was actually in the Dragon Age world, I would want to start an elven rebellion, it makes little sense for me to put someone as devious as Anora on the throne. Alistair seemed to me easily manipilated by those he trusts. Anora on the other hand wants power and will do anything to keep it. This meant that for me the best thing was to keep Alistair happy a little longer, and that unfortunately meant killing Loghain.

[Witcha]

If you harden Alistair and marry him off to Anora he becomes interested in learning governance and tells you after the coronation 'If Anora thinks she can rule herself she's got a surprise coming.' Plus he'll have you and/or Eamon to give him further guidance.

[Ahisgewaya]

Witcha, you can't possibly determine someone's tone over the internet. Getting upset over it is pointless. Although I do agree he has been a bit condescending toward you. Both of you really should be more civil. This is an interesting discussion and I'd hate to see it locked.



Anora has already shown herself to be more cunning in politics than Cailen. This fact makes me beleive that any "Union" Cailen would have with Orlais would be very one sided. Cailen wasn't "allowed" to go into the alienage. That says a lot right there about his competence as a leader. What would Celene "allow" Cailen to do I wonder?

[Witcha]

Not related to the Empress, but considering that he intended to tear down the Alienage walls after the Blight, and that Duncan was going to discuss the issue with him, I expect that matter would have been resolved eventually.

As to what Celene would 'allow' Cailan to do, I somehow don't think she'd tell him to depose all the Banns and replace them with Orlesian Chevaliers.

Modifié par Witcha, 27 février 2010 - 08:52 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Unless someone talked him out of it, which I'm sure they would have. Rememebr, he said he wasn't "allowed" to go into the alienage. The King is allowed to do whatever he beleives he is allowed to do. This to me is a clear indication that Cailen was a puppet king.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Witcha wrote...

Akbar the Great(1542-1605) was considered the greatest emperors of the Mogul Empire in India. While he used his fair share of military force to expand the empire, unlike his father and grandfather he conquered his greatest enemies, the Rajput clans, largely through marriage alliances. He married the daughters of Rajput kings and chieftains, thereby bringing them under the Mogul empire. They agreed because while he was their overlord and emperor, they retained sovereign control over their kingdoms and maintained the regional cultural independence of their people as different individual states within the Mogul empire. So much so that after the reign of Akbar's tyrannical grandson Aurangzeb many of them were able to rally their people to rebel and break away.

I have no doubt you will thoroughly analyse the above, state counter-opinions from various sources and even if satisfied, barriage me with half a dozen other examples to justify your opinion. I don't expect to change your opinion, so let's just agree to disagree here. If you still think of me as naive and incompetent kindly ignore me from now on.

That's not a very good example.
First, this endeavour of Akbar worked precisely because he had great military success. Second, they didn't have sovereignity. Rather, they were given some form of autonomy within the Moghul empire (which was known to be rather tolerant). And it's clear that none of the minor kingdoms controlled by the clans was truly indepedent.
It's quite comparable to the Teyrns in Ferelden. While they do have autonomy granted to them by the Monarch, they are still submitted to Denerim and are part of the Ferelden kingdom.
The Mughal empire expanded and annexed, it didn't unite. Whether by military force or marriage, the end result was the same. Annexation. At the end of the day, those clans would obey the authority of the Mughal Emperor. That's why it's called an Empire and not a "union".  

From your own example, it's very clear that it was the Mughal Empire that benefited the most from subjugating other clans and kingdoms to it. So much so that, as you said, the clans rebelled eventually. So the plan failed.
If anything, your exaple proves my point. Regardless of how much autonomy the minor clans were given, they were still subjugated to the Empire.
If I was a Ferelden, I would never want that.

Hence, the Orlais / Ferelden issue will have the same results. Even if Ferelden is awarded with some autonomy, the clear benefactor would be Orlais. Eventually, either Ferelden will rebel, causing another pointless war of independence. Or it would be absorbed by Orlais.

And that's assuming that the "union" can work in the first place. The Mughal Empire was known for its religious and ethnic tolerance, so there was no problem including Hindu subjects within the state apparatus. Orlais is different. Orlais has had a very bad history with Ferelden and the wouns are still fresh.
I don't know what Cailan was thinking, but his actions would have led to civil war because Loghain, Teyrn of Gwaren would surely have rebelled. Plus I am not sure Bryce Cousland would accept this. Afterall the Couslands barely gave their alliegence to Calehnad, why would they do it to an Orlesian Empress?
So already here you have 2 Teyrns who have enough reason to start a civil war.
The only person I can imagine supporting Cailan's idiocy is Eammon. But even he isn't that stupid.

I agree to disagree when it comes to ethics. This isn't ethics. 

Witcha wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I didn't ignore it. You ignored what I just told you. There are Wardens in the imperial court. They can very easily not become politically neutral if Celene wanted that. And second, Riordan isn't the highest ranking Grey wArden around. He isn't supposed to know everything. If the Wardens are capable of interfering in politics in the Anderfels, then they are capable of doing so anywhere else. Just in theory, they won't do that. But theory and practise often do not overlap.

It's natural for the Grey Wardens to have some clout with the ruler/court of any nation they operate in considering they need their permission and funding to operate on their territory. Likewise the Fereldan Wardens under Duncan had an HQ in the royal palace. And if junior, insignificant Riordan was able to determine the political leanings of the Wardens of Anderfels(an order he wasn't even part of) after just a single visit to Weisshaupt, I very much doubt he would be blissfully unaware of the Wardens'  policies in the country he'd lived in for over a decade.
I have no doubt the Orlesian monarchy was far more supportive of the Wardens than the Fereldan one. But to expect the Orlesian Wardens to willingly serve the government's own political agendas in return for their permission and funding is, well, a stretch. Not to mention if the Wardens truly operated like that they'd end up fighting one another between Blights whenever there was an international conflict.

We are talking about what Loghain could see and know. Loghain never talked to Riordan and all he has is the bad history of the wardens and an Orlesian army marching with them to Ferelden. I am pretty sure he knows that theere are Wardens in the imeprial court or the wArdens in the Anderfels.
Quite frankly, if he didn't suspect, he would be an idiot. But he isn't. He was right to suspect.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 février 2010 - 08:58 .