510 réponses à ce sujet

[Kail Ashton]

Buuuut on the otherhand he very much stole a malificorim mage from the templars to premeditarily murder arl Eamon before Ostagar(and again, may have had a role in the Cousland masacre), Jowain does say it was Loghain himself who made the offer, So i do believe he was planning this well in advance

[Vim]

Laurento wrote...

Ah Loghain a great character one you either love or hate, an awesome villain, right up there with Jon Irenicus IMO. Personally I feel he gets the short end of the stick a bit too much. A few things we got to remember:

- The Warden and Alistair missed the signal at Ostagar, the window of opportunity had passed, any charge by Loghain's men would of been potential suicide better to pull back his troops and regroup. This is even confirmed by Calien's guard in RTO.

This isn't established fact. This is an opinion that is given in game by a deserter with plenty of reason to rationalize his own desertion.  Furthermore, the actions of Cailan's guard  in RtO were a contradiction.  Whenever the PC talks to Cailan in Ostagar he's as giddy as a schoolboy over thoughts at his chance at glory. He doesn't sound the least bit concerned. He only sounds reckless.  There isn't even the slightest hint of caution in his voice. And yet somehow we are to believe that Cailan was somehow worried that he and everyone else was going to die. I'll take what I saw with my own eyes over a deserter's post-battle rationalization.

The deserter's opinion also doesn't make sense if you know anything about how battles are fault. Once the darkspawn are pinned down in battle with the King's forces, a charge into their flank or rear would be devastating.   There was no missed "moment".  A late charge would simply have meant that the king's forces were allowed to take more of a mauling than they should have. But as long as the King's forces were still standing, and they were, it wouldn't have been too late.

-Calien is an idiot, let's face it, he comes across as a glory hunting fool, an extremely vain man who lives in dreams and is obcessed with becoming a legend, he does not instead "attend to reality" as Loghain would say.

I'll give you this one.  Nevertheless the plan was still Loghain's, not Cailan's, as mentioned in the pre-battle planning. If the battle plan at Ostagar was doomed to fail then it was Loghain's fault for coming up with a bad plan and insisting that they make their stand there and then cutting and running, leaving the King , the Grey Wardens, and countless thousands of their troops to die.

-His suspicions of the Orlesians is somewhat vindicated in RTO, if Calien and Celene were really planning to marry, Feldern would be screwed, the Orlesian Empire, the most powerful in Thedas "merging" with a small backwater nation like Ferelden? which nation would be the dominant in this relationship? Imagine those Chevaliers coming over like they own the place...

Um, no. That letter from Arl Eamon was crumpled if you will recall. Clearly Cailan wasn't too receptive to the idea of dumping Anora. Yes, the letter from Celene was very friendly, but Cailan is like that with -everyone-. He doesn't know how to be formal.  And assuming the alliance mentioned in her letter involves marriage is a HUGE assumption. While it's not outside the realm of possibility, it's still one giant assumption.  There isn't one bit of solid proof, just some very questionable circumstancial evidence.

I don't always keep him alive but he's still around in at least 2 of my profiles one where he is my farther-in-law actually!

I've read through his dialogs with the toolset because I keep killing him or allowing Alistair to kill him in my play throughs. I much prefer keeping Alistair in my party, and after all the misery that Loghain has caused neither my human noble nor my elves are inclined to disagree with Alistair when he makes an issue of it. Howe would never have murdered Bryce, Eleanor, Oriana & Orian if he hadn't been certain he could get away with it thanks to Loghain.  Howe, as Loghain's right hand, knew that the king would be left to die at Ostagar. Even if Loghain didn't tell him to murder the Couslands, he knew Loghain wouldn't punish him afterward.  On the other side, all 3 of my elves (mage, city & dalish) hated him for selling elven citizens into slavery.  

When I finally do get around to playing a dwarf however, they may end up feeling more inclined to spare him. But even still there is the betrayal at Ostagar, his warring with the other banns for power while the Darkspawn gobbled up Ferelden, and the assassins he sends after you.  Then there are all the good people you're forced to kill like Ser Cauthrien ( i don't surrender at the arl's estate and that means she dies)  just because they were loyal to someone who didn't deserve it. And what if you spare him and he decides he'd make a better leader than you because he doesn't agree with one of your decisions, will he then betray you the way he did Cailan? I don't know. So we shall see.

Modifié par Vim, 14 mars 2010 - 12:12 .

[dbkkk]

Default137 wrote...

Its been said many times, both in game, and out of game that Loghain did not plan the Mage Tower, had nothing to do with the Mage Tower, and did not plan to kill Cailan on the way to Ostagar. These are not idle thought patterns, they are things that are confirmed in game multiple times before you even meet the man, and have also been confirmed by David Gaider himself. Ostagar was a flop due to poor planning since nobody thought it was a Blight, and Loghain deciding to save the remains of Fereldens Military over his King, nothing more.

Honestly, if I wasn't sick and tired of having to repeat the stuff thats been pointed out in game, on the forums, and confirmed by Gaider himself concerning Loghains actions over and over again because people don't seem to like reading it, I would tell you more about what exactly happened with Eamon, and how the Alienage might not fully have been Loghain behind it either, but honestly? I don't really want to have to argue with emotional people over factual evidence in a game, and confirmation from writers anymore, it just makes me hate the human race.

I will say this slowly so you can understand it and there is no confusion.

You ...  really ... need ... to ... calm ... down.

Your attitude is not only inappropriate but is quite frankly childish seeing that you would respond in such a fashion to such a generic, simple post. It is the height of immaturity to see anything that was written in  that psot as being 'emotional'. It is sad to see such shallow behavior but I suspect this is the ultimate asymptote on the Internet given how much people can get away with when they don't have to say it in person to soemone's face.

I am not going to debate with you regarding Uldred. I know Loghian didn't orchestrate the possession of Uldred that was a terrible miscalcualtion on Uldred's parrt when he was confronted by the heads of the guild. Nor will I waste time debating about the content of what Uldred says regarding Loghain's offer to the Circle. As always in DAO, there are many intimations that the game writers make purposedly grey and ambiguous to let people draw there on conclusions.

Still my observation was a simple one and I agree that it could have been sleight of hand on the part of the authors
(i.e. coincidence that was meant to look like causation). I apologize that all I know about is what I see in-game as I do not worship as a devoted acolyte at the first church of David Gaider.

I am sorry that you are so 'sick and tired' in your neverending battle to combat what must assuredly be terrible ignorance and injustice on these forums. It must be very taxing. But have you ever thought that while the human race (of which I am persoanlly happy to be part of) has many shortcomings maybe instead you are anthropomorphizing your own deficiencies and projecting them onto your intellectually inferior brethren.

My advice is go immerse yourself in an MMORPG 24x7, so you don't have to worry so much about dealing with the human race.

Best of luck.

Modifié par dbkkk, 15 mars 2010 - 02:17 .

[this isnt my name]

shedevil3001 wrote...

rolmao yes i'm glad i dethroned her shes a calculating minipulative wench but poor alistair you men obviously feel threatened by him that most women love alistair so that automatically makes him number 1 on all mens hate list now boys will be boys i see lol "dont kill me please" only stating the obvious

Im a guy and I dont hate him, I like him, hes a nice guy and is my wardans wingman...so is the dwarve whos name I cant spell. And if Loghain is back in my game it must be a damn necromancer, just wish I could kill anora to the backstabing *****...Anyway as Alistairs advisor I want him to kill Anora, then remove evey bit of land Howe/Loghain  has.
I mean if leave why not tell the others before hand, then he pins it on me, what if all the wardans died blame who then ? He was just a power hungry backstaber, kinda like his daughter who I want to convinve alistair to have killed.

[Gorn Kregore]

shedevil3001 stands by her name

[Laurento]

Vim wrote...

Laurento wrote...

Ah Loghain a great character one you either love or hate, an awesome villain, right up there with Jon Irenicus IMO. Personally I feel he gets the short end of the stick a bit too much. A few things we got to remember:

- The Warden and Alistair missed the signal at Ostagar, the window of opportunity had passed, any charge by Loghain's men would of been potential suicide better to pull back his troops and regroup. This is even confirmed by Calien's guard in RTO.

This isn't established fact. This is an opinion that is given in game by a deserter with plenty of reason to rationalize his own desertion.  Furthermore, the actions of Cailan's guard  in RtO were a contradiction.  Whenever the PC talks to Cailan in Ostagar he's as giddy as a schoolboy over thoughts at his chance at glory. He doesn't sound the least bit concerned. He only sounds reckless.  There isn't even the slightest hint of caution in his voice. And yet somehow we are to believe that Cailan was somehow worried that he and everyone else was going to die. I'll take what I saw with my own eyes over a deserter's post-battle rationalization.

The deserter's opinion also doesn't make sense if you know anything about how battles are fault. Once the darkspawn are pinned down in battle with the King's forces, a charge into their flank or rear would be devastating.   There was no missed "moment".  A late charge would simply have meant that the king's forces were allowed to take more of a mauling than they should have. But as long as the King's forces were still standing, and they were, it wouldn't have been too late.

-Calien is an idiot, let's face it, he comes across as a glory hunting fool, an extremely vain man who lives in dreams and is obcessed with becoming a legend, he does not instead "attend to reality" as Loghain would say.

I'll give you this one.  Nevertheless the plan was still Loghain's, not Cailan's, as mentioned in the pre-battle planning. If the battle plan at Ostagar was doomed to fail then it was Loghain's fault for coming up with a bad plan and insisting that they make their stand there and then cutting and running, leaving the King , the Grey Wardens, and countless thousands of their troops to die.

-His suspicions of the Orlesians is somewhat vindicated in RTO, if Calien and Celene were really planning to marry, Feldern would be screwed, the Orlesian Empire, the most powerful in Thedas "merging" with a small backwater nation like Ferelden? which nation would be the dominant in this relationship? Imagine those Chevaliers coming over like they own the place...

Um, no. That letter from Arl Eamon was crumpled if you will recall. Clearly Cailan wasn't too receptive to the idea of dumping Anora. Yes, the letter from Celene was very friendly, but Cailan is like that with -everyone-. He doesn't know how to be formal.  And assuming the alliance mentioned in her letter involves marriage is a HUGE assumption. While it's not outside the realm of possibility, it's still one giant assumption.  There isn't one bit of solid proof, just some very questionable circumstancial evidence.

I don't always keep him alive but he's still around in at least 2 of my profiles one where he is my farther-in-law actually!

I've read through his dialogs with the toolset because I keep killing him or allowing Alistair to kill him in my play throughs. I much prefer keeping Alistair in my party, and after all the misery that Loghain has caused neither my human noble nor my elves are inclined to disagree with Alistair when he makes an issue of it. Howe would never have murdered Bryce, Eleanor, Oriana & Orian if he hadn't been certain he could get away with it thanks to Loghain.  Howe, as Loghain's right hand, knew that the king would be left to die at Ostagar. Even if Loghain didn't tell him to murder the Couslands, he knew Loghain wouldn't punish him afterward.  On the other side, all 3 of my elves (mage, city & dalish) hated him for selling elven citizens into slavery.  

When I finally do get around to playing a dwarf however, they may end up feeling more inclined to spare him. But even still there is the betrayal at Ostagar, his warring with the other banns for power while the Darkspawn gobbled up Ferelden, and the assassins he sends after you.  Then there are all the good people you're forced to kill like Ser Cauthrien ( i don't surrender at the arl's estate and that means she dies)  just because they were loyal to someone who didn't deserve it. And what if you spare him and he decides he'd make a better leader than you because he doesn't agree with one of your decisions, will he then betray you the way he did Cailan? I don't know. So we shall see.

-Yes there is a window of opportunity, Loghain's men aren't Grey Wardens nor are they invincible, the Darkspawn had just about finished overwhelming the Kings army by the time the beacon was lit, it was pretty much just Duncan and Cailan left... A pincer attack (against the much larger Darkspawn forces) would of been futile by then.

- As for the plan itself well we will never know there are numerous variables which effected the outcome, Duncan wanted to wait for the Orlesians, Cailan wanted to confront the Archdemon head on. I guess the plan is pretty basic however, and the tower was left vunerable which Loghain must take some accountability for.

- Good point I almost completely forgot about how it's hinted Eamon's note didn't go down to well with Cailan, in fact obseving Eamon, he himself seems to be quite the political manipulator, and having Alistair on the throne definitely suits him especially since he is named Regent, the position Loghain was claiming ironically. 

Yes  there's no question he did some bastardly things but I like to think of his story (if you give him the chance) as the ultimate redemption, particularily if he survives the last battle his epilogue is very satisfying.

[dunachar]

I kept him alive in my last playthrough, took him to Ostagar, etc. I liked having him around actually, it was cool to listen to him defend/not defend his actions. I thought it was cool that he then headed up recruiting for the wardens. Thats a major plus for warden recruits out there, I mean who better to get recruited by than the greatest general Ferelden ever had. Hopefully i get an update on this process from him in Awakening

[dbkkk]

Laurento wrote...

Yes  there's no question he did some bastardly things but I like to think of his story (if you give him the chance) as the ultimate redemption, particularily if he survives the last battle his epilogue is very satisfying.

I have to concur with you here. His end game dialog after the final battle is quit e heartfelt. But then again Bioware / Obsidian has always been good at redemption arcs imo.

[Nic-V]

The battle at Ostagar was lost. Loghain would have attacked with his troops if the Wardens hadn't been too late to light the beacon. He was suspicious of them already, and when they didn't light the beacon in time he must have thought them betrayers. I'm pretty sure Loghain hadn't planned it from the start but there were simply too many. Cailan was a man "wanting to play at war" and as so Loghain didn't waste troops to save him and left him to die.

[Vim]

Laurento wrote...

-Yes there is a window of opportunity, Loghain's men aren't Grey Wardens nor are they invincible, the Darkspawn had just about finished overwhelming the Kings army by the time the beacon was lit, it was pretty much just Duncan and Cailan left... A pincer attack (against the much larger Darkspawn forces) would of been futile by then.

No, watch it again. I just did. When the beacon is lit both Loghain & Cauthrien see it and Loghain orders a surprised Cauthrien to order the troops to leave the area. She then complies and his troops are shown marching away. It is only then that the scene shifts back to the battle which is in full swing. The King's troops don't even appear to be losing at this point. They are however fully engaged and plenty of them are shown in combat. Initially it looks like they are giving as good as they are getting, but the tide turns against them as you watch the film.  Whether or not Loghain's troops would have gotten there in time is open to question. But at the time that he ordered his troops to abandon his King, the Grey Wardens, and the rest of his troops to die, they were still fighting heroically. 

- As for the plan itself well we will never know there are numerous variables which effected the outcome, Duncan wanted to wait for the Orlesians, Cailan wanted to confront the Archdemon head on. I guess the plan is pretty basic however, and the tower was left vunerable which Loghain must take some accountability for.

Cailan only wanted to be in the center of the action with the Grey Wardens. That's why he chose to be where he was. He didn't choose the plan or the moment for the battle. Those were Loghain's decisions. Cailan offered to wait for the arrival of the Orlesian reinforcements. Loghain then said they wouldn't be necessary, the troops they had would be sufficient.  That on top of Loghain's clear disbelief in the blight spurred Cailan to make his stand right then and there with the wardens as Loghain knew he would.  Loghain did make a half-hearted last minute to dissuade him, probably because he felt he owed Maric that much, but he knew given the situation he painted, that Cailan was going to refuse. 

Note that I'm not saying Loghain lied about the blight. But his disbelief in the gravity of the situation only served to make Cailan more resolute. 

- Good point I almost completely forgot about how it's hinted Eamon's note didn't go down to well with Cailan, in fact obseving Eamon, he himself seems to be quite the political manipulator, and having Alistair on the throne definitely suits him especially since he is named Regent, the position Loghain was claiming ironically.

Chancellor actually, but essentially you're correct -if- Alistair is unhardened -and- your player warden doesn't choose to become chancellor himself by telling Alistair he wishes to serve the crown.  An unhardened Alister that rules alone will become a figurehead with either your pc or Eamon as Chancellor being the power behind the throne.  A hardened Alistair isn't such a push-over, but Eamon still sticks with him.

Yes  there's no question he did some bastardly things but I like to think of his story (if you give him the chance) as the ultimate redemption, particularily if he survives the last battle his epilogue is very satisfying.

I myself don't hate him. I think he's beautifully written and one of the key characters that makes the game so great.  His fall from grace and its disastrous consequences on the realm  are some of the central themes of this game. But my characters tend not to see that given their more limited experiences in the game.  And even those that might seriously consider sparing him aren't inclined to stand up for him when Alistair makes an issue of it.

That said, having read all of his dialogs with the toolset, I as a player agree that the redemption angle has a certain amount of appeal.  I also find his dialogs to be highly insightful.  It's just a matter of getting one of my character's to believe that taking a risk on Loghain is worth alienating Alistair over.

Modifié par Vim, 15 mars 2010 - 06:32 .

[spottyblanket]

I so wanna play a human male noble now. Just so I can call him daddy--ahahaha.