510 réponses à ce sujet

[Feraele]

Reaverwind wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Fourth, David Gaider said that Loghain did not seek to poison Eammon to death, but rather incapacitate him until the situation is handled, then provide him the cure. The proof in-game is that even when the demon is killed, Eammon still lives, which show that the demon was lying she wwasn't saving Eammon. 

Moot point. Whether or not Eamon dies, he's effectively removed from the picture.

Until the situation is handled, yes. Eammon was a bad influence on Cailan (at least in Loghain's mind) and as we find out in RTO, it seems he was even pushing Cailan to marry Empress Celene I, which is the single dumbest political move an idiot like Cailan could ever do.

Really? History is full of examples of political alliances cemented by marriages-of-convenience, especially between former enemies. And since Thedas is reportedly loosely based upon medieval Europe, it's not a reach at all.

Yup Queen Victoria's children all married into the European ruling classes..its a way of making alliances etc.   She had quite a few children with Albert..don't remember something like 8 or 9 lol.

[Monica21]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Honestly it really doesn't matter what David says in retrospect. We can only go by what's actually in game. Howe was evil, but he wasn't an idiot. He would not have attacked the Couslands if he thought Calain would be surviving the battle of Ostregar. The king made it perfectly clear what he intended to do to Howe following that battle, and Howe would be smart enough to know this. Loghain may not have expected Howe to murder them, but he did expect him to take the castle.

Wholly disagree with this. Duncan tells Cailan that if you hadn't escaped Howe could have arrived at Ostagar and told him any story he wished. He only attacked because he thought he could get all of the Couslands with a single blow, and likely had a plan for killing Fergus in battle. Cailan living or dying had nothing to do with it.

And not directed at anyone in particular, but "A man is made by the quality of his enemies" is a line that's been floating around in some form for a very long time. As good as the BioWare team are at writing dialogue, this did not originate with them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Reaverwind wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Fourth, David Gaider said that Loghain did not seek to poison Eammon to death, but rather incapacitate him until the situation is handled, then provide him the cure. The proof in-game is that even when the demon is killed, Eammon still lives, which show that the demon was lying she wwasn't saving Eammon. 

Moot point. Whether or not Eamon dies, he's effectively removed from the picture.

Until the situation is handled, yes. Eammon was a bad influence on Cailan (at least in Loghain's mind) and as we find out in RTO, it seems he was even pushing Cailan to marry Empress Celene I, which is the single dumbest political move an idiot like Cailan could ever do.

Really? History is full of examples of political alliances cemented by marriages-of-convenience, especially between former enemies. And since Thedas is reportedly loosely based upon medieval Europe, it's not a reach at all.

No, historically, it was a prince marrying a princess from another kingdom, or a King marryign a noblewoman from another kingdom. But it was never a King marrying a Queen of another kingdom. That would have meant Orlais regaining control over Ferelden, as the two crowns are merged. And we know that Celene I is a political mastermind, while Cailan is a buffoon. Orlais is a superpower, while Ferelden is a backward nation. So do the math.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 février 2010 - 05:58 .

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, because what the lead writer of the game and the one who created Loghain as a character says is irrelevent. Well done.
A game, played from the perpective of a character, cannot reveal all the truth like the lead writer can. Ignoring what Gaider said is quite frankly arrogant.

Its not arrogant. What I meant was we can only go by the story he actually told. Not by the one in his head. The story that was told was rich and detailed. Every detail pointed to premeditation by Loghain. A plan that went horribly, horribly wrong, but a plan nonetheless. If that wasn't the tale he intended to tell, then the fault does not lie with the reader.

For the record, I do think he told the story he intended to tell. And it was an excellent one. Only the nuances are up for interpretation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, because what the lead writer of the game and the one who created Loghain as a character says is irrelevent. Well done.
A game, played from the perpective of a character, cannot reveal all the truth like the lead writer can. Ignoring what Gaider said is quite frankly arrogant.

Its not arrogant. What I meant was we can only go by the story he actually told. Not by the one in his head. The story that was told was rich and detailed. Every detail pointed to premeditation by Loghain. A plan that went horribly, horribly wrong, but a plan nonetheless. If that wasn't the tale he intended to tell, then the fault does not lie with the reader.

For the record, I do think he told the story he intended to tell. And it was an excellent one. Only the nuances are up for interpretation.

The story he told is through the eyes of a character, so naturally this character's view point is very limited. The game isn't written like a novel or a hsitory book. Not all facts can be shown. This is also due to technical limitations as well. So what Gaider says is essential, from an out-game point of view.

Of course in-game, what he says doesn't come to play. And as you said. it's up for interpretations. A character within the game can't really know what we know from out-universe perspective.
So I am not blaming anyone for killing Loghain in the game, with an in-game perspective.

I just wanted to clarify Loghain's position from an out-game point of view.

[Vicious]

No, historically, it was a prince marrying a princess from another kingdom, or a King marryign a noblewoman from another kingdom. But it was never a King marrying a Queen. That would have meant Orlais regaining control over Ferelden, as the crown is merged. And we know that Celene I is a political mastermind, while Cailan is a buffoon. So do the math.

This. The Empress is a genius. Cailan, while he may have been smarter than people gave him credit for, was not. At best, him becoming an Emperor would sharply divide Ferelden and he would end up warring against his own people in Celene's name to subjugate them.



After all, Anora played Cailan like a fiddle, and by all accounts she is not even remotely as intelligent as Celene is... so yeah... Whatever Cailan thought he might get out of such a union... he was wrong.



Cailan should be glad he died in battle against Darkspawn rather than against his own countrymen.







That said, Yeah looking forward to seeing Loghain. He is a pretty interesting character, and since Sarevok I enjoy putting my enemies into my party and making them work for me.

[Vicious]

Also: Every origin character you do not play dies, because Duncan was not there to save them. So if you play as a Dwarf Noble, guess what... the youngest Cousland died in Howe's attack. So did the Dwarf Commoner - their body still rots in Jarvia's jails.



Loghain had nothing to do with any of the origin stories. Blaming him for, say, Howe's actions, is just the rabid incomprehensible 'logic' that is so common on these forums.

[Monica21]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, because what the lead writer of the game and the one who created Loghain as a character says is irrelevent. Well done.
A game, played from the perpective of a character, cannot reveal all the truth like the lead writer can. Ignoring what Gaider said is quite frankly arrogant.

Its not arrogant. What I meant was we can only go by the story he actually told. Not by the one in his head. The story that was told was rich and detailed. Every detail pointed to premeditation by Loghain. A plan that went horribly, horribly wrong, but a plan nonetheless. If that wasn't the tale he intended to tell, then the fault does not lie with the reader.

For the record, I do think he told the story he intended to tell. And it was an excellent one. Only the nuances are up for interpretation.

The story does not imply Loghain and Howe being in cahoots before Ostagar, especially given Duncan's conversation with Cailan. Howe intended you to be dead so he couldn't be outed to Cailan.

[Xandurpein]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes, because what the lead writer of the game and the one who created Loghain as a character says is irrelevent. Well done.
A game, played from the perpective of a character, cannot reveal all the truth like the lead writer can. Ignoring what Gaider said is quite frankly arrogant.

Its not arrogant. What I meant was we can only go by the story he actually told. Not by the one in his head. The story that was told was rich and detailed. Every detail pointed to premeditation by Loghain. A plan that went horribly, horribly wrong, but a plan nonetheless. If that wasn't the tale he intended to tell, then the fault does not lie with the reader.

For the record, I do think he told the story he intended to tell. And it was an excellent one. Only the nuances are up for interpretation.

The orginal story as it's told in the game is open for interpretation. The very fact that there is so much debate about it on this forum proves that. The statement  "Every detail pointed to premeditation by Loghain" is therefore your interpretation, others make different intrerpretations.

David Gaider has later explained what he had in mind when they wrote the story, to me this represent the cannon version of what happened, simple as that. The fact that the clues in the game in themselves are not enough to reach that conclusion with certainty, because the player is, deliberatly or not, left with incomplete evidence, is to me by no means reason enough to claim that mr Gaiders explanation of what actually happened is somehow not valid. 

[Cutlass Jack]

Monica21 wrote...

The story does not imply Loghain and Howe being in cahoots before Ostagar, especially given Duncan's conversation with Cailan. Howe intended you to be dead so he couldn't be outed to Cailan.

Howe would be leaving too much to chance even if he did believe he'd kill all witnesses. He'd have to explain his possession of Highever, as well as why he disobeyed the king's wishes by not moving his forces to help at Ostragar. Also, he'd be leaving too much to chance where Fergus was concerned. Unless, you know, Loghain ordered him out to a very risky assignment in the Wilds.

Also, Howe's very dialogue during the Noble origin conveys that winds of change are in store for Calain. His words are open to very heavy interpretation, of course. But Howe is no fool. He'd never make so bold a move unless he knew every duck was in a row.

Howe also played a part in Loghain's plan for Eamon I seem to recall.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 22 février 2010 - 06:20 .

[Nuclear_Pony]

LOL, of all the people the last thing I want is Sarevok in my team (not to mention Jon Irenicus and Melissan). Kill the competition. Bleh, I can't believe I just said that ! XD

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

The story does not imply Loghain and Howe being in cahoots before Ostagar, especially given Duncan's conversation with Cailan. Howe intended you to be dead so he couldn't be outed to Cailan.

Howe would be leaving too much to chance even if he did believe he'd kill all witnesses. He'd have to explain his possession of Highever, as well as why he disobeyed the king's wishes by not moving his forces to help at Ostragar. Also, he'd be leaving too much to chance where Fergus was concerned. Unless, you know, Loghain ordered him out to a very risky assignment in the Wilds.

Also, Howe's very dialogue during the Noble origin conveys that winds of change are in store for Calain. His words are open to very heavy interpretation, of course. But Howe is no fool. He'd never make so bold a move unless he knew every duck was in a row.

Howe also played a part in Loghain's plan for Eamon I seem to recall.

The reality is that Howe did take that risk.
And he would have succeeded, if it were not for the unexpected arrival of Duncan. That's why Howe was anxious to have him there.
As for Fergus, he could be eliminated very easily. Via assassins, during thr battle or on his way home. And none would be the wiser.

So Loghain had nothing to do with the murder of the Couslands. We don't know if he liked the Couslands or not (they fought against the Orlesians, so no reason to suspect hatred or anything less than sympathy on Loghain's part), but he certainly did not want them dead.

ANd yes, Howe played a part in Eammon's poisoning.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 février 2010 - 06:26 .

[Cuddlezarro]

Im incredibly curious about Loghains role in Awakening especially since I made Alistair marry Anora as well in my dwarf casteless playthrough

[errant_knight]

The idea that Cailan planned a marriage to the Orleisian empress is entirely conjecture pased on separate pieces of corrospondence being found in the same box. That's not particularly meaningful. We only know that Eamon was pushing Cailan to find a new queen, and that he had rejected the idea. Also, that Cailan and the empress were friendly. Making a leap from that to an affair is a big jump, let alone marriage. Personally, I don't think any Fereldan would think of such a thing. The treaties were meant to achieve peace, not unification. That would be as unthinkable as the unification of England and France.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 février 2010 - 06:31 .

[AndreaDraco]

The Couslands were Royalists, so I don't think that Loghain liked them very much, considering how he was trying to isolate Cailan to remove the threat the King represented to Ferelden (in his opinion), and it's very possible that he only asked Howe to delay Bryce as much as possible, but it was certainly and only Howe to go ahead and destroy the entire family for his own gain.



As for why Loghain did want Bryce delayed, I have a theory concerning Bryce, his frequent trips to Orlais (as hinted by his wife) and Cailan's private letters.

[Monica21]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Howe would be leaving too much to chance even if he did believe he'd kill all witnesses. He'd have to explain his possession of Highever, as well as why he disobeyed the king's wishes by not moving his forces to help at Ostragar. Also, he'd be leaving too much to chance where Fergus was concerned. Unless, you know, Loghain ordered him out to a very risky assignment in the Wilds.

Also, Howe's very dialogue during the Noble origin conveys that winds of change are in store for Calain. His words are open to very heavy interpretation, of course. But Howe is no fool. He'd never make so bold a move unless he knew every duck was in a row.

Howe also played a part in Loghain's plan for Eamon I seem to recall.

Yes, and as Duncan said, he could "tell any story he wished." His possession at Highever could be nothing more than that he fought back whoever tried to take it over and he remained to defend it. As for not moving his forces to Ostagar, he has a ready explanation he gave to Bryce. His forces were arriving late at Highever because he didn't reinforce the levies, or at least that's his story. There's nothing to indicate that Loghain directly ordered Fergus on the scouting assignment.

I agree with you about Howe making sure his ducks were in a row, but even if he was in cahoots with Loghain (and that's a very big if) he had to make contingency plans if Cailan ended up living through Ostagar.

[AndreaDraco]

errant_knight wrote...
The treaties were meant to achieve peace, not unification. That would be as unthinkable as the unification of England and France.

Nevertheless, someone tried, no? So, why not Cailan and Celene? I'm not saying that it is so and you're right: it is a conjecture. But there is nothing in the game that negate this possibility

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

So Loghain had nothing to do with the murder of the Couslands. We don't know if he liked the Couslands or not (they fought against the Orlesians, so no reason to suspect hatred or anything less than sympathy on Loghain's part), but he certainly did not want them dead.

ANd yes, Howe played a part in Eammon's poisoning.

I actually don't think Loghain had any direct malice against the Couslands. Only that Highever and Redcliff were staunch supporters of the king and they'd never back him. Remember one thing everyone agrees about Loghain is that he was an amazing tactician. The plan (as I saw it) was to remove the two largest obstructions he saw in a way that did not involve open war. Due to the losses both sides would take. He thought (incorrectly) that this would prevent civil war in Ferelden and keep them united against the real threat. Orlais of course.

His own words say as much in the Landsmeet. And he does many other terrible things past Ostragar that he makes no apologies for. Though I think we can both agree Howe's influence led him to increasingly darker and unfortunate paths as the situation declined.

[Nuclear_Pony]

Oh definitely. As far as I can remember, England and France never been the best of friends. England was mainly protestant while France was mainly catholic. France even tried to get Scottish and Irish help to attack England, wich is clever ofcourse. This is coming from an atheist living in the Netherlands (who're mainly protestant hahahaha!). You have to pardon me Errant, I had a little bit too much whisky.

[Dethanos]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


So Loghain had nothing to do with the murder of the Couslands. We don't know if he liked the Couslands or not (they fought against the Orlesians, so no reason to suspect hatred or anything less than sympathy on Loghain's part), but he certainly did not want them dead.

Loghain needed Teryn Cousland out of the way just as much as Arl Eamon. He could have never made his power-grab with Cousland still in the picture. I see no reason not to believe that Loghain had full knowledge of Howe's actions. He certainly wasted no time in rewarding Howe's "loyalty".

[errant_knight]

AndreaDraco wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
The treaties were meant to achieve peace, not unification. That would be as unthinkable as the unification of England and France.

Nevertheless, someone tried, no? So, why not Cailan and Celene? I'm not saying that it is so and you're right: it is a conjecture. But there is nothing in the game that negate this possibility

There's no evidence that anyone tried, just that Eamon thought that Cailan wasn't going to produce an heir with Anora.

Kings and queens just don't marry each other, for the very reasons outlined. They do marry minor members of each other's families to strengthen ties, but there's no evidence that was being considered either. This is spurious logic--'A'-no heir + 'B'-Peace treaties in no way equals 'AB'-heir with Celene.

Nuclear_Pony wrote...

Oh definitely. As far as I can remember, England and France never been the best of friends. England was mainly protestant while France was mainly catholic. France even tried to get Scottish and Irish help to attack England, wich is clever ofcourse. This is coming from an atheist living in the Netherlands (who're mainly protestant hahahaha!). You have to pardon me Errant, I had a little bit too much whisky.

Lol! You're definitely on the other side of the world from me! I just had breakfast.

Modifié par errant_knight, 22 février 2010 - 06:45 .

[Herr Uhl]

Dethanos wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


So Loghain had nothing to do with the murder of the Couslands. We don't know if he liked the Couslands or not (they fought against the Orlesians, so no reason to suspect hatred or anything less than sympathy on Loghain's part), but he certainly did not want them dead.

Loghain needed Teryn Cousland out of the way just as much as Arl Eamon. He could have never made his power-grab with Cousland still in the picture. I see no reason not to believe that Loghain had full knowledge of Howe's actions. He certainly wasted no time in rewarding Howe's "loyalty".

The lead writer told us that he did not know.

[Gilsa]

I really like Loghain's complex character a lot. I don't have an ending where he lives, but I do have an ultimate sacrifice that I can "hand wave" and maybe that means both the PC and Loghain will show up in Awakenings. I'd love if you started a thread about Loghain after Awakenings came out and basically share how much face time he has. If it's significant, then I'd find a way to carry Loghain over. When it comes to dealing with the Blight or military stuff, Loghain is just the best choice. I mean, even when it comes to recruiting the dog in RtO, Loghain has the best lines. I really do feel Loghain sacrificing himself to the archdemon is the best ending. (I briefly considered the ritual, but he flat out said no. OK.)



Aargh, I just talked myself into importing Loghain. OK, I'll create another dwarf for this. Been wanting to see what happens if a dwarf commoner sides with Harrowmont. (How pissed is Rica at the ceremony? Anyone know?)

[Cutlass Jack]

errant_knight wrote...

Nuclear_Pony wrote...

Oh definitely. As far as I can remember, England and France never been the best of friends. England was mainly protestant while France was mainly catholic. France even tried to get Scottish and Irish help to attack England, wich is clever ofcourse. This is coming from an atheist living in the Netherlands (who're mainly protestant hahahaha!). You have to pardon me Errant, I had a little bit too much whisky.

Lol! You're definitely on the other side of the world from me! I just had breakfast.

Who says thats not breakfast?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dethanos wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


So Loghain had nothing to do with the murder of the Couslands. We don't know if he liked the Couslands or not (they fought against the Orlesians, so no reason to suspect hatred or anything less than sympathy on Loghain's part), but he certainly did not want them dead.

Loghain needed Teryn Cousland out of the way just as much as Arl Eamon. He could have never made his power-grab with Cousland still in the picture. I see no reason not to believe that Loghain had full knowledge of Howe's actions. He certainly wasted no time in rewarding Howe's "loyalty".

If what David Gaider said is not a good enough reason for you, then there is nothing left to say.