510 réponses à ce sujet

[Vicious]

His treatment of Alistair was enough for me to dislike Eamon. He clearly wanted to have some control over the throne - He was obviously trying to influence Cailan, and not having much luck, so who better then Alistair, who is of maric's blood and is inexperienced and thus fairly pliable?

I mean if he cared about Alistair, he wouldn't have bundled him off to Templar-hood at the screeching of his wife, and stop visiting the second he had a kid of his own, and not check back... ever. Alistair goes to Eamon, not the other way around.

It's why, if Alistair is King, Eamon is hanging around the throne room - but if Anora is Queen, Eamon is gone. Alistair was his last bid for control IMO - And Eamon at every turn tries to get rid of Anora. He has everything to gain if Anora is out of the way - she is not related to him by blood as Cailan was, and she is unlikely to do anything he says.

And if Cailan and Anora DID conceive and have a child, who would the kid be raised to idolize more? His distant great uncle, or his huge hero grandfather?

It's all IMO of course, but Eamon was a scumbag. I didn't like him or his Orlesian **** of a wife.

His son, however, was one of the bravest characters in the game.

Modifié par Vicious, 23 février 2010 - 02:49 .

[Phantom_1]

This my post summarise my opinion bout Loghain

I love this char so much especially coz Simon Templeman made me love it, as old player i still remember " Soul Reaver "
Other than that there are some question which commes in mind when you think bout Loghain :

- Loghain is guy which is on very responsible function , he cant allow himself to be either romantic or emotive bout his decisiouns and things he is doing , he is responsible bout safety of entire Feralden and all the ppl-
I never had impression bout him in the game that he is power hungry like Morrigan or Anora for example.

And in Ostagar as someone mentioned that battle was phail battle in front before even started chances where slim to win, one should ask himself what would happend if Loghain marched blindly in the battle and that 3/4 of Feralden army died there, that would have some serious consequences.
I cant blame Loghain for not having trust in Orlais , as we know Orlais have huge army and what things where in past between those two countrys you cant blame him for his obsession when you consider what happend to him at his early age .

In start when you comme to Ostagar and speak to king he makes impression on you like he is some dreamer kid , and fool.

Bout selling slaves in Feralden , well as ppl know those elves where never free citizens in first place and they never had all rights like the rest , but those elves never did standed for themself like Dalish for that cause i dont have much respect for em.
And Loghain did sold em for his goal , to make money for mercenarys in army in war times.

Also throught game you offer redemption for bloody assassin Zevran who did killd who knows how many ppl and enjoyed his job and also you give redemption to Sten which did kill entire family of farmers with kids included, so why wouldnt you offer redemption to Loghain also his the man which loves his country, proven tactician and commander in war especially when in time like that you need every capable man for your cause.

And also want to add that Alistair proved as very emo person , i dont want guy like that to command my armies , he in end leaves you if you decide to spare Loghain , he leaves the wardens in their cause for defending against blight just coz the need for personal vengeance.

Should be added that Loghain actually didnt wanted for Cailan to be in the battleground in 1 place, and not in that time in Ostagar.


Ps : i agree pretty much bout everything you say bout Loghain KnightofPhoenix and your tribute is very nice,   tho i think what is even more cool than Loghain himself is Simon Templeman i love characters for which he does vo.

Modifié par Phantom_1, 23 février 2010 - 02:53 .

[vocalemuse]

Well, I killed Loghain in every one of my playthroughs so unless he shows up in the Orlesian warden's scenario (which I hope he doesn't honestly) I won't be seeing him.

[Divine Justinia V]

I'm VERY excited.

[Gilsa]

Phantom_1 wrote...

This my post summarise my opinion bout Loghain

I love this char so much especially coz Simon Templeman made me love it, as old player i still remember " Soul Reaver "
Other than that there are some question which commes in mind when you think bout Loghain :

- Loghain is guy which is on very responsible function , he cant allow himself to be either romantic or emotive bout his decisiouns and things he is doing , he is responsible bout safety of entire Feralden and all the ppl-
I never had impression bout him in the game that he is power hungry like Morrigan or Anora for example.

And in Ostagar as someone mentioned that battle was phail battle in front before even started chances where slim to win, one should ask himself what would happend if Loghain marched blindly in the battle and that 3/4 of Feralden army died there, that would have some serious consequences.
I cant blame Loghain for not having trust in Orlais , as we know Orlais have huge army and what things where in past between those two countrys you cant blame him for his obsession when you consider what happend to him at his early age .

In start when you comme to Ostagar and speak to king he makes impression on you like he is some dreamer kid , and fool.

Bout selling slaves in Feralden , well as ppl know those elves where never free citizens in first place and they never had all rights like the rest , but those elves never did standed for themself like Dalish for that cause i dont have much respect for em.
And Loghain did sold em for his goal , to make money for mercenarys in army in war times.

Also throught game you offer redemption for bloody assassin Zevran who did killd who knows how many ppl and enjoyed his job and also you give redemption to Sten which did kill entire family of farmers with kids included, so why wouldnt you offer redemption to Loghain also his the man which loves his country, proven tactician and commander in war especially when in time like that you need every capable man for your cause.

And also want to add that Alistair proved as very emo person , i dont want guy like that to command my armies , he in end leaves you if you decide to spare Loghain , he leaves the wardens in their cause for defending against blight just coz the need for personal vengeance.

Should be added that Loghain actually didnt wanted for Cailan to be in the battleground in 1 place, and not in that time in Ostagar.


Ps : i agree pretty much bout everything you say bout Loghain KnightofPhoenix and your tribute is very nice,   tho i think what is even more cool than Loghain himself is Simon Templeman i love characters for which he does vo.

Well said.

I don't have the emotional investment in the outcome of Landsmeet that human noble players do because my dwarf is mainly on the sidelines watching human politics unfold. It doesn't matter who is on the human throne because the dwarven empire was the first to crumble to the darkspawn with little to no help from the surface. It is a no-brainer to retain a general with military experience to help fight the Blight. (In my first playthrough, my dwarf was also thinking that his army would be more likely to help out since they'd follow their general. If I killed him in Landsmeet, I ran the risk of alienating his men and the cooperation of Anora in her role as the queen. I had no way of knowing how it would actually turn out. I figured the personal grievances against Loghain could be dealt with after the Blight was resolved first.)

And I am pretty neutral about the elves. It was unfortunate they were sold into slavery, but even with how bad things were for them in the Alienage, they were still better off than the casteless dwarves who weren't even allowed to be hired as servants. I didn't play a city elf until my fifth playthrough and I was shocked to see that the elves grew a pair in the final battle, insisting on defending the Alienage and their homes. They didn't act like this in the other playthroughs -- why start now? It seemed a bit misleading to be wimps in front of dwarves and humans, but all of a sudden, they were formidable if the warden was an elf. (No idea how they act if the warden is a dalish elf instead.)

Landsmeet was Alistair's fall from grace just like the Orlesians were Loghain's fall from grace. Even though he walked out at crucial moment when he was needed the most, I have a hard time believing that his story ends there. It's in his blood -- he'll find himself being drawn back to the darkspawn, either in Deep Roads or otherwise. There's a lot of potential for him to show up again, asking to be let back into the Grey Wardens. So if people are inclined to execute Alistair at Landsmeet, it's worth letting him go in case that story angle goes somewhere in the future.

[CalJones]

Yes I dislike Arl Eamon too - if I could have left him to die and replaced him with Bann Teagan I would. He treated Alistair like dirt because he lacked the spine (or didn't want) to stand up his cow of an Orlesian wife. Yet suddenly he is all supportive of Alistair (despite Al not wanting to be king) after Cailan dies. Note that he stays on as Al's advisor. Hmm...



I also liked Alistair a lot less after the Landsmeet. He was my friend, buddy and (in one runthrough) lover until that point. I was so unimpressed by his drama queeny hissy fit there, I stopped liking him.



As for the elves, they've always been a bunch of pansies who wouldn't defend their homes in my game - even the one where I played a City Elf. I wonder how you managed to get them to grow spines?

[speedingpullet]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
It's also really bad precedent to let generals decide which orders they'll obey, and which they won't.

It's also a bad precedent to allow an idiot to rule over a nation and follow his every command even if he will destroy the nation.

Yes, it is a bad precedent. But sometimes, it is necessary. And more often then not, leaders should listen to their generals and not really act as if they know what the hell they are doing. We have too many examples of leaders screwing up because they couldn't listen to their generals who have more experience in war.  

Whoa there Nellie! 

While, yes, Cailen was very callow and taken with himself - he was still King.
If the Nobles of Ferelden swore fealty to Cailen, which I'm assuming they would have - it being a Feudal world and all - then Loghain is still a traitor, no matter how much Cailen 'deserved' to die or how misguided he was. Cailen may very well have been an idiot (personally, I reckon he'd have been a fine king once he'd gotten older, had he lived), but his postion - both as a son of Maric, and as named King - meant that you owe him fealty no mater what. 

Plus - your only child is married to him. Yes, she might have been the 'head' of the nation, but by removing her rightful reason to be on the throne, you're just making her life more difficult. Why rock the boat? You daughter rules in everything but name, her slightly dim but adoring husband is malleable - why end all that by letting him die? It doesn't make sense.

There's really no grey area to it. If your King asks for your aid in battle - in fact is depending on you to execute previously agreed upon tactics, once a condition has been met (ie lighting the beacon in the tower), then you don't just decide not to do it because you think its a bad idea all of a sudden...

Loghain may have been 'working in the best interests of Ferelden', but by the Feudal system much of Thedas lives under, Cailen IS Ferelden.

Therefore by throwing your sworn ruler, figurehead of your country, under a bus, you're committing Treason, and most people will want your head on a stick, rotting in the sun on the battlements of the Royal Palace.
No matter his motivation.
Its still Treason and is punishable by death and loss of title and lands.

This doesn't mean that Loghain wasn't a fascinating character... I let him live one playthrough, and had him sacrifice himself killing the Archdemon.
I have to say that I enjoyed talking to him more than I expected I would. 

And not that he doesn't genuinely love his country.
But you just don't leave your king to die on a battlefield.

Modifié par speedingpullet, 23 février 2010 - 05:40 .

[Mass Fraud]

How can he make an appearance when his body is rotting in my torture chamber. muahahahahahha!!!

[Default137]

Cannot wait!

Loghain was always the most interesting character for me, because his motivations were so realistic if you actually learned more about him, he wasn't just being evil for evils sake, or was being a dick because of the fact he could, but was actually trying to help Ferelden in the only way he knew how, which involved him being somewhat anti-moral, but whatever, its a very the ends justify the means character, and I can really respect how he was built up as a character.

Oh, and if your like me, and can't bring yourself to watch Alistar throw his tantrum, a good way to get both things solved is to harden Alistar, marry him to Anora, then put him on the throne and take Loghain with you, I figure in the months between DA:O and DA:A he should have calmed down towards Loghain, and by the end of the series, they may be able to work together, which would be nifty to see.

Also speeding, talk to him and Wynne about Ostagar, the Mages retreated early, and most of the army was dead before the tower was lit, as both of them confirm, even if Loghain had charged, Cailan would have died, but so would Loghain and almost all of his forces. There is no way a General of his calibur would sacrifice that many men, not even for his king, especially when it would open up Ferelden to Orlais, or any other threat, as suddenly the only forces the country would have would be Arl Eamons forces.

And he even admits he feels terrible about the choice, he basically comes out and says he knew each of the men who fought by Cailen personally, and that he would have to be the one to tell their fathers what happened, the very same fathers he fought alongisde while they fought off Orlais.

TLDR Cailan didn't die because Loghain wanted him to, or because Loghain was evil, Cailan died because he was a moron and didn't listen to the most intelligent person in the damn camp telling him that fighting in the front lines is a stupid move, something a king should know, you don't put the President in a marine beachhead invasion detachment ffs.

Modifié par Default137, 23 février 2010 - 06:00 .

[Cutlass Jack]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
It's also really bad precedent to let generals decide which orders they'll obey, and which they won't.

It's also a bad precedent to allow an idiot to rule over a nation and follow his every command even if he will destroy the nation.

Yes, it is a bad precedent. But sometimes, it is necessary. And more often then not, leaders should listen to their generals and not really act as if they know what the hell they are doing. We have too many examples of leaders screwing up because they couldn't listen to their generals who have more experience in war.  

The problem with this, is that Loghain was proven to be utterly and completely wrong concerning the Darkspawn. If it had been up to him they never would have any troops at Ostregar at all. Also, the King did trust his General to follow the very plan he created for him. That plan was not Cailans, so you can see exactly how listening to his general worked out so well. Had Cailan followed his own instincts they would have waited til they had more forces.

The one deviation he did insist on (Wardens lighting the torch) was a pretty clever bit on his part to protect the royal bloodline in case the worst happened. Cailan was an Idealist, true. And it got him killed. But he wasn't quite the fool people think he was.

So yes, listening to your experienced generals is a good idea. Provided those generals aren't so blinded by old hatreds they ignore the threat right in front of them.

[speedingpullet]

Default137 wrote...

Also speeding, talk to him and Wynne about Ostagar, the Mages retreated early, and most of the army was dead before the tower was lit, as both of them confirm, even if Loghain had charged, Cailan would have died, but so would Loghain and almost all of his forces. There is no way a General of his calibur would sacrifice that many men, not even for his king, especially when it would open up Ferelden to Orlais, or any other threat, as suddenly the only forces the country would have would be Arl Eamons forces...

TLDR Cailan didn't die because Loghain wanted him to, or because Loghain was evil, Cailan died because he was a moron and didn't listen to the most intelligent person in the damn camp telling him that fighting in the front lines is a stupid move, something a king should know, you don't put the President in a marine beachhead invasion detachment ffs.

Oh, no there's no dispute that Cailen was a bit of a tool, and had no business being in the thick of battle. But, he was king, and a young one, and being king  - his word was gospel.
All the more reason for a seasoned vet like Loghain to keep a close eye on him and make sure he didn't get in too deep.

And, no doubt, that a lot more people would have died to extricate Cailen and his men from the Darkspawn onslaught - but at the end of the day, that was Cailen's call and no one else's.

You don't just turn tail and leave when you know your ruler and a whole bunch of his men are literally being mown down, and need your help right-this-very-minute-now. 

If nothing else, you'd at least have sent messenger to tell him that you're pulling back and to beat a retreat himself. Not waited until the Beacon was lit to make a run for the hills, leaving anyone on the battlefield to certain death.

Maybe I'm too black and white in my morals - but however you dress it up with ulterior motive, love of country and historical heroics, its still a betrayal.

Not saying the guy isn't fascinating - but even his daughter stops short of stopping you from killing him.
She might miss the man who was her Daddy, but the guy at the Landsmeet is dangerous, unpredictable and ultimately a King-Killer.
She's canny enough to realise that eventually he'll be trouble for her too, if she lets him live.

Anyway - I, too, am very interested to see how they manage to segue him into Awakenings....

[Lughsan35]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

shedevil3001 wrote...

rolmao yes i'm glad i dethroned her shes a calculating minipulative wench but poor alistair you men obviously feel threatened by him that most women love alistair so that automatically makes him number 1 on all mens hate list now boys will be boys i see lol "dont kill me please" only stating the obvious

My gf hated him. Alot. And she is the only woman in my world
....eherm..don't tell her that.  

I don't like him because he is JUST LIKE ME...and its annoying to have your mirror speaking all the time to you...

:innocent:

[Default137]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
It's also really bad precedent to let generals decide which orders they'll obey, and which they won't.

It's also a bad precedent to allow an idiot to rule over a nation and follow his every command even if he will destroy the nation.

Yes, it is a bad precedent. But sometimes, it is necessary. And more often then not, leaders should listen to their generals and not really act as if they know what the hell they are doing. We have too many examples of leaders screwing up because they couldn't listen to their generals who have more experience in war.  

The problem with this, is that Loghain was proven to be utterly and completely wrong concerning the Darkspawn. If it had been up to him they never would have any troops at Ostregar at all. Also, the King did trust his General to follow the very plan he created for him. That plan was not Cailans, so you can see exactly how listening to his general worked out so well. Had Cailan followed his own instincts they would have waited til they had more forces.

The one deviation he did insist on (Wardens lighting the torch) was a pretty clever bit on his part to protect the royal bloodline in case the worst happened. Cailan was an Idealist, true. And it got him killed. But he wasn't quite the fool people think he was.

So yes, listening to your experienced generals is a good idea. Provided those generals aren't so blinded by old hatreds they ignore the threat right in front of them.

Amusingly enough, there is a lot of foreshadowing pointing to the fact Loghain might just be right, and Orlais is still after Ferelden, and will try again soon, the fact the Empresses of Orlais was trying to seduce Cailan, and get him to ally the two countries and give Orlais all the power, Arl Foreshadow, the talk of Orlaisian troops massing at the border, none of it really strikes me as Orlais wanting to leave Ferelden be.

As for the battle, Loghain would have sent forces eventually, but as everyone said, nobody though it was a true blight, had Cailan not wanted glory to put his names in the history books, its doubtful even he would have been there, as it is, he seemed fairly sad about the fact it would only be a minor battle, and thats why he wanted to many men, to make it look like a larger fight.

Nobody except Duncan and Alistar knew it would be as large a fight as it was, Loghain didn't think it was a blight, so his plan was built around the fact the Darkspawn had no leader/were to stupid to flank, Cailan didn't care, and thought it would be over quickly, and hoped his name would be in the history books, and Duncans advise went unheard because there was no proof beside the fact he could sense an Archdemon, but he couldn't say anything.

The thing is, its obvious Loghain had no idea what would happen, and the plan failed not because he wanted it to, but because of way to many outside influences, if you talk to Wynne and him, she says the Mages had to retreat at the very start of the battle, because the Darkspawn had flanked Cailans men and were killing them, very few survived the onslaught, because of this, Cailan suddenly lacked any sort of firepower at all, then there was the fact Darkspawn were attacking from the tower, which I assume means Cailans forces were being attacked from the back as well.

Cailan was screwed no matter what happened, simply because they didn't realize the Darkspawn would outthink them, and by the time you lit the tower, Loghain saw he would never be able to reach anybody in time to save them, and even if he had charged, all it would have done would have killed most of his men, as he lacked Mages, and rather then leave Fereleden totally open to attack, he backed off.

[Cutlass Jack]

Loghain was a master tactician. That should be the one point no one should argue. Cailan would never be outflanked if Loghain's head were truly in the game. If Cailan got outflanked its because Loghain didn't stick to his own plan. They were in a tight pass. No one was getting around them. The only route the Darkspawn had to try to outflank them was cleared by you on your way to the tower.



I still say he never had any intention of engaging his forces in the battle. Otherwise he never would have been so concerned about someone other than his men being in charge of the torch. And if he had other means of viewing the battle, the torch would have been unecessary. Remember they were hidden so that the Darkspawn would be lured into the trap.



He did not see the torch, move forward, see the forces and go "Geez too late for them, poor bastards." and turn around. He ordered his forces away when the torch was lit without attempting to view the situation at all. That was shown very directly.

[Xandurpein]

errant_knight wrote...
It's also really bad precedent to let generals decide which orders they'll obey, and which they won't.

speedingpullet wrote...

There's really no grey area to it. If your King asks for your aid in battle - in fact is depending on you to execute previously agreed upon tactics, once a condition has been met (ie lighting the beacon in the tower), then you don't just decide not to do it because you think its a bad idea all of a sudden...

I love all these people who assume that Generals are drilled to be robots that are never allowed to disobey an order even if they think it can send their men to death needlessly. A general must always be able to adapt their plan to the situation on the battlefield. I am not going to argue whether the battle at Ostagar was lost or not, but if the battle had been lost when the beacon was lit, then of course Loghain has a duty to Fereldan and to his men to not throw away their lives needlessly. That should go without saying.

Just because the military har a chain of command, doesn't mean that the individual commander are expected to not have a mind of their own. Do you think that someone accused of war crimes can get free, because they followed orders? No.

It makes for a very, very bad precedent if Generals are expected only to obey and never think.

I'm not saying what Loghain did was excusable, because that all hinges on whether the battle was lost or not, something we have no real proof of one way or the other, but of course he was correct in leaving if the battle had been lost.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 23 février 2010 - 07:20 .

[Default137]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Loghain was a master tactician. That should be the one point no one should argue. Cailan would never be outflanked if Loghain's head were truly in the game. If Cailan got outflanked its because Loghain didn't stick to his own plan. They were in a tight pass. No one was getting around them. The only route the Darkspawn had to try to outflank them was cleared by you on your way to the tower.

I still say he never had any intention of engaging his forces in the battle. Otherwise he never would have been so concerned about someone other than his men being in charge of the torch. And if he had other means of viewing the battle, the torch would have been unecessary. Remember they were hidden so that the Darkspawn would be lured into the trap.

He did not see the torch, move forward, see the forces and go "Geez too late for them, poor bastards." and turn around. He ordered his forces away when the torch was lit without attempting to view the situation at all. That was shown very directly.

Problem being, he tells Cailan not to fight on the front lines, and advises him to fight in a safer position, because its much less dangerous there, he also commends your Warden if female, and mentions he that he will be watching your progress through the Wardens, and hopes to see you achieve great things. Neither of those statements really gives me the "I PLAN TO KILL YOU ALL MWHAHA" vibe, moreso that he actually does want Cailan fighting nowhere near the front lines, and that he does want to see your Warden advance.

Honestly, him leaving can be explained in a number of ways ( although it is suspect that he knows almost exactly what happened during the battle, and can tell you, most of which Wynne confirms so he is not making stuff up, so it does make it seem like he was able to see the battle ), the best of which being that it had already been to long, and he figured by that time, everyone was already dead no matter what he did, more then likely though, since he apparently did see most of the battle from up there, he had already decided the battle was over.

And yes he was a master tactician, however, he did not have enough intelligence of what was going on to be able to build a plan to combat it, saying he should have known it was a full scale Blight is all well and good, but at the end of the day, he thought it would be little more then a minor skirmish, heck, everyone thought it would be little more then a minor skirmish, and so he built his plan around that.

Really, you could argue it shows Loghains brilliance at planmaking that even when EVERYTHING went wrong, the Darkspawn flanked them, as well as tried to attack from behind, Ogres appeared during a fight they weren't supposed to be in, the Mages fled at the first sign of battle, and the tower got lit late, that they still could have possibly won the field with massive causualties had he charged, thats a damn good battle plan if you ask me.

Modifié par Default137, 23 février 2010 - 07:40 .

[errant_knight]

He's never said anything very nice to my female warden at all. When does he say that?

[Cutlass Jack]

Default137 wrote...

Problem being, he tells Cailan not to fight on the front lines, and advises him to fight in a safer position, because its much less dangerous there, he also commends your Warden if female, and mentions he that he will be watching your progress through the Wardens, and hopes to see you achieve great things. Neither of those statements really gives me the "I PLAN TO KILL YOU ALL MWHAHA" vibe, moreso that he actually does want Cailan fighting nowhere near the front lines, and that he does want to see your Warden advance.

Howe very nicely mentioned wanting to arrange a marriage between me and his daughter too. Sometimes its best not to take such lines too seriously in the greater scheme of things.

But again there's no evidence whatsoever that he made any attempt to see what was happening on the field. It very directly showed him not checking. Whether or not it was suicide to send his troops into battle is irrelevant. It was his plan and it made no sense he didn't trust in it.

If he could have seen the battle there would be no need for the torch. Simple as that really. The 'too long' thing doesn't really hold water since there would be really no way to gauge how long they needed to wait before the Darkspawn were properly in the trap. If the Torch was lit, then the trap was ready to be sprung.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 23 février 2010 - 07:52 .

[Default137]

errant_knight wrote...

He's never said anything very nice to my female warden at all. When does he say that?

Very beginning of the game, on my human noble female ( this MIGHT not work on Dwarves/Elves, not sure D: ), and go to his tent and cause him to come out and talk to him a bit, he basically gives this little peptalk to you about not giving up, and that "don't let other people tell you that you can't do things because your a woman" and that "your a Fereleden, and that means more then gender"

Once again though Cutlass, how do you explain the fact that he knows exactly what happened on the battlefield, more then would be expected even if you assume he talked to a survivor, he knew EXACTLY when the Mages left, he knew that he couldn't make it in time to save Cailan, and he knew ethat Cailan was being attacked from the towerside as well.

You don't just randomly know this stuff, and it implies he was able to see that battle from there.

The thing is, Loghain suddenly betraying Cailan, planning for it to be a massacre, and then leaving him to die is such a huge breach of character development, its not even funny, and I know Gaider is far to good a writer to ruin a character like that for such a silly petty reason. If Loghain did what you said he did, he could only have two reasons to, either he suddenly became a massively power hungry crazed madman, despite all evidence pointing to the fact he could care less about power, or he really felt Cailan needed to go for the good of Ferelden, but he would feel no need for that, as his daughter basically ran the country, while Cailan ran around playing fairy tales.

*edit* If he knew Cailan was planning to hand over Ferelden to the Empress of Orlais, and that he was possibly cheating on Anora with her, then yes, I could easily see him killing Cailan out of vengence, and for the good of Ferelden, however, at the time of Ostagar, he still had no idea Cailan was planning on selling out the country, and being dragged around to help Cailan try to become a great leader would not have irritated him enough to KILL the man, especially since he was the son of his best friend.

Modifié par Default137, 23 février 2010 - 08:08 .

[Cutlass Jack]

errant_knight wrote...

He's never said anything very nice to my female warden at all. When does he say that?

I know that one. At Ostagar you can persuade the guard outside Loghain's tent to let you talk to him. If you're female, he says some pleasantries about how the first Warden Maric let back in Ferelden was female and the finest warrior he ever known. And to never let anyone give you crap for being female. That sort of thing.

But he also has a different bit he says if you're the Human Noble, so its possible if you're a Female noble, you'd get the noble bit and not the female bit. Just a guess though.

Edit (having just seen noble's reply): You definately get it on City Elf female as well.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 23 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[errant_knight]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

He's never said anything very nice to my female warden at all. When does he say that?

I know that one. At Ostagar you can persuade the guard outside Loghain's tent to let you talk to him. If you're female, he says some pleasantries about how the first Warden Maric let back in Ferelden was female and the finest warrior he ever known. And to never let anyone give you crap for being female. That sort of thing.

But he also has a different bit he says if you're the Human Noble, so its possible if you're a Female noble, you'd get the noble bit and not the female bit. Just a guess though.

Edit (having just seen noble's reply): You definately get it on City Elf female as well.

I'm playing a female noble, and the times I've conversed with him, which hasn't been in every playthrough, he hasn't mentioned my being female at all. We've just talked about the battle and the wardens, as I recall.

Default137 wrote...
*edit* If he knew Cailan was planning to hand over Ferelden to the Empress of Orlais, and that he was possibly cheating on Anora with her, then yes, I could easily see him killing Cailan out of vengence, and for the good of Ferelden, however, at the time of Ostagar, he still had no idea Cailan was planning on selling out the country, and being dragged around to help Cailan try to become a great leader would not have irritated him enough to KILL the man, especially since he was the son of his best friend.

Holy cow! That's a lot of supposition to draw from letters being in the same box! There's no evidence of anything of the kind. Selling out the country? Handing Fereldan over to Orleis? That's a huge leap to make based on a friendly tone and Eamon's attempts at manipulation. And if there was anything that wasn't good about the treaties, Alistair would have said something when he found them and was regretting that Cailan's work had been wasted.

It may be possible that Cailan had a flirtation or affair going with the empress, again, there's no evidence, but there's absolutely nothing at all to say that he'd been considering anything further than that. Not to mention that I can't think of a single time in history that the ruler of one independent kingdom has married another. It just doesn't make political sense.

Modifié par errant_knight, 23 février 2010 - 08:20 .

[Maria Caliban]

Gilsa wrote...

I didn't play a city elf until my fifth playthrough and I was shocked to see that the elves grew a pair in the final battle, insisting on defending the Alienage and their homes. They didn't act like this in the other playthroughs -- why start now? It seemed a bit misleading to be wimps in front of dwarves and humans, but all of a sudden, they were formidable if the warden was an elf. (No idea how they act if the warden is a dalish elf instead.)

They did this in my human noble playthrough. I don't believe it has anything to do with origin, but something to do with how you treat Shianni.

[Default137]

errant_knight wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

He's never said anything very nice to my female warden at all. When does he say that?

I know that one. At Ostagar you can persuade the guard outside Loghain's tent to let you talk to him. If you're female, he says some pleasantries about how the first Warden Maric let back in Ferelden was female and the finest warrior he ever known. And to never let anyone give you crap for being female. That sort of thing.

But he also has a different bit he says if you're the Human Noble, so its possible if you're a Female noble, you'd get the noble bit and not the female bit. Just a guess though.

Edit (having just seen noble's reply): You definately get it on City Elf female as well.

I'm playing a female noble, and the times I've conversed with him, which hasn't been in every playthrough, he hasn't mentioned my being female at all. We've just talked about the battle and the wardens, as I recall.

Default137 wrote...
*edit* If he knew Cailan was planning to hand over Ferelden to the Empress of Orlais, and that he was possibly cheating on Anora with her, then yes, I could easily see him killing Cailan out of vengence, and for the good of Ferelden, however, at the time of Ostagar, he still had no idea Cailan was planning on selling out the country, and being dragged around to help Cailan try to become a great leader would not have irritated him enough to KILL the man, especially since he was the son of his best friend.

Holy cow! That's a lot of supposition to draw from letters being in the same box! There's no evidence of anything of the kind. Selling out the country? Handing Fereldan over to Orleis? That's a huge leap to make based on a friendly tone and Eamon's attempts at manipulation. And if there was anything that wasn't good about the treaties, Alistair would have said something when he found them and was regretting that Cailan's work had been wasted.

It may be possible that Cailan had a flirtation or affair going with the empress, again, there's no evidence, but there's absolutely nothing at all to say that he'd been considering anything further than that. Not to mention that I can't think of a single time in history that the ruler of one independent kingdom has married another. It just doesn't make political sense.

Have you brought Loghain to RtO?

He has alot more to say regarding Cailans recent actions, and how he was somewhat suspicious because of how he was acting, but these just confirmed them, and gets REALLY REALLY MAD at the boy for cheating on Anora, and selling out the country.

Sure, Loghain might be wrong but uh.

There is the rumors of Orlaision troops preparing for war.

And Arl Foreshadow.

And Loghain talking about how Cailan was up to something with the Empresses, added with the flirtatious tone and "after the war, we will talk about our two countries future more personally" kind of implies something, especially with how she refers to him as Cailan, as if its on personal terms rather then on political terms. You don't meet the Emperor of Japan and call him by his first name.

Its not concrete evidence, but its a lot of evidence pointing a specific way.

Modifié par Default137, 23 février 2010 - 08:32 .

[Maria Caliban]

errant_knight wrote...

Holy cow! That's a lot of supposition to draw from letters being in the same box! There's no evidence of anything of the kind. Selling out the country? Handing Fereldan over to Orleis? That's a huge leap to make based on a friendly tone and Eamon's attempts at manipulation.

We know that Cailan had affairs, we know that Anora was wildly rumored to be barren and Eamon wanted her 'put aside', we know that the Empress sent Cailan letters 'in an uncharacteristally familiar tone' about a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden, and we know that the Empress has long desired to return Orlais to the size it was under Drakon.

Yeah, Cailan was going to or had tapped that. The Empress would likely suggest marriage with the elder sibling ruling Orlais and the younger ruling Ferelden. That doesn’t mean Cailan would agree, though it would have improved Origins if Loghain had reason to think this was the case.

[Default137]

I'm going to be heavily amused if Alistar knocks up Anora, meaning it was Cailan who was shooting blanks.



I'll also be amused if Orlais does attack, and try to retake over which seems VERY likely at this point, because it will mean Loghain was right all along, then, also if Alistar or unhardened Alistar proves to be a Harrowmount choice, I think I'd be even more amused >_>



Then again, I'm a terrible person.