510 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyDamodred]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Very well said. And you're correct that the Devs left quite a bit of room for interpretation on both characters. Purposely so.

For my own opinion, Cailain was a romantic idealist, but he wasn't the fool everyone thought he was. This became utterly clear for me on my second playthrough (The one where you catch more details because you have context of things you find out later). When he sends you to the tower to light a torch. What seems like the stupidest uneccesary duty in the whole battle ("See? Glory for everyone!") is actually a ploy to protect the bloodline in case the worst happens. Thats why he calls you into the meeting and not Alistair. He make's Al's inclusion seem like a casual thing, when in fact its the entire point. But watch his expressions carefully.

Off topic, but its why I almost always put Alistair on the throne (in various ways). I see it as the King's dying wish.

That hits the nail on the head for me as well, especially after what his confidant says in RtO.  I also think Cailan's quest for glory beside Grey Wardens might stem from Maric.  After all, being Maric's son, I'm sure that respect for the GW was sort of drilled into him as a child.  Would he come off as being so driven to obtain glory if this were just a regular battle?  It would also explain by he seems so blithely ignorant of possible consequences at the meeting.  When Duncan warns of the archdemon, Cailan is all 'Isn't that what your men are here for?'  And Dunca's all "Yes..."  Loghain is not altogether wrong at that moment by saying Cailan places too much faith in the GW, since Duncan himself isn't particularly confident of what will happen if the Archdemon shows up.  The Fereldan army did not appear equipped to handle the AD if it showed.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I doubt Cailan would have succeeded either, in trying to play Celene. That was not the point. My point is, is that he was quite possibly trying, and had an agenda of his own. His chances of success or failure are irrelevent to my case.



I wouldn't go as far as saying "genuis" playing idiot, only that the possibility exists that he was not a complete idiot. Loghain, Eamon, Anora, even Alistair all thought him quite the tool. Duncan even states, very obliquely, the king is rushing into things, they should wait for the orlesians. However, it seems there was more going on beneath the surface than is let on. That dude you get the RTO info from stated that Cailan was pretty sure something might happen to him, and he wanted his documents to go to the Grey Wardens first and foremost. In my experience, morons lack that kind of contingency planning. By that point, Duncan was long dead/disappeared, but it sounded to me like Duncan and the king might have been planning and talking on the side about things that Loghain, Eamon, Anora, and Alistair were clueless about. Unfortunately, the only person who could tell us for certain is presumably dead along with the king.



The fact cailan was sending for Orlesian troops was no big surprise, nor was it that he was working for some sort of peace/alliance with Orlais. Working over past grievances and trying to move forward would be sensible. the question remains exactly what sort of alliance Cailan was gunning for? Maarying the Empress would be the most stupid thing he could do. He might as well just hand over the throne and start teaching everyone to speak Orlesian and paint their faces. But was that the case?



It is concievable that Celene could have been gunning for such a thing, and trying to seduce Cailan, but was not having any success, and Cailan could have been cautiously playing along to see if he could work it to his own advantage.

[Monica21]

I don't have much to add except that, if we're talking traitors, let's not forget George Washington, and Thomas Jefferson. They knew they were committing treason, yet they did it because they thought it was the correct course of action.

Also, I agree with pretty much everything Knight has said.

[zaim298]

Loghain is the MAN!! nuff said...

[LadyDamodred]

You're only a traitor if you lose.

If you win, you're a patriot. History

[Cutlass Jack]

LadyDamodred wrote...

You're only a traitor if you lose.
If you win, you're a patriot. History

Winners always write the history books.

[speedingpullet]

LadyDamodred wrote...

You're only a traitor if you lose.
If you win, you're a patriot. History

LOL - too true! 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The fact cailan was sending for Orlesian troops was no big surprise, nor was it that he was working for some sort of peace/alliance with Orlais. Working over past grievances and trying to move forward would be sensible. the question remains exactly what sort of alliance Cailan was gunning for? Maarying the Empress would be the most stupid thing he could do. He might as well just hand over the throne and start teaching everyone to speak Orlesian and paint their faces. But was that the case?

Yes. All evidence point to this. Until it's clearly proven wrong, the theory that he was planning to marry Celene has a very strong basis and is far more likely that anything else.

I am not saying he is a complete and utter idiot (even if I am tempted to call him that). But I would think that whatever planning Cailan did was done by Duncan (who is quite a manipulator in his own right). I cna't prove this point though.

 

[Curlain]

People are right to point out that the idea of nationhood and nationalism are very much a concept that developed during the early modern period to even later, and was not in the system of thought (particularly political thought) that medieval people operated under. They would recognise being a member of one people or another (ie being English for French) but then at this period even that was vague since often you were more a part of your local area (ie someone would see themselves as belonging to northern England or being a Burgandian not a Englishmen or Frenchmen). Therefore the ties that did exist in the feudal system were ties to lord and through them the king, ties of duties and obligations on both sides, this could allow rule by kings or queens of different nationalities quite acceptable (since to some extent it was the case anyway, due to people seeing themselves only in terms of belonging to their local area, such as northern England, and having a completely different type of spoken English to south-eastern English for example) as long as those new rulers accepted and honoured existed systems of laws and rights (and this was the various English peoples problems with the Norman invasion as opposed to the Normans taking over as such).

So yes, if Ferelden is a truly feudal country in medieval terms then Loghain's action is betrayal and treason to his liege lord, and would only be interpreted in this light (nationalism would simply have no concept in this kind of world). That said, this is a fantasy world, and it seems in Ferelden there is some concept of nationhood despite the feudal trappings the writers have given to this land, so in Ferelden there might be recognition of nationalism as a political ideal/concept.

Modifié par Curlain, 23 février 2010 - 07:27 .

[speedingpullet]

Thank you, Curlain, for putting it much more elegantly that I have... ;-)



I think what makes Ferelden even more fascinating is that it isn't a 100% reflection of England (AngleLand, maybe).



The Angles - England - once they were a united kingdom - was always more egalitarian society than the Normans. Angle society was always more of a meritocracy. By our standards it was still brutish and inflexible, but it still had commoners becoming kings by deed and action alone.



Feudalism was to all intents and purposes a Norman import and only really took hold as a political and economic system after the Norman invasion.



So, using the Dragon Age lables - Ferelden is a strange mixture of Orlesian and traditional Ferelden political structures.



One has to wonder if the Orlesians left more behind them there. than just conquered land...?



In any case, the fact that we can discuss the motivations and political structure of the place, just goes to bolster my opinion that this game is awesome sauce and one possibly the best written and researched one I've had the pleasure of playing....

[KnightofPhoenix]

Very good point Curlain. There is a flavor of nationhood in Ferelden politics. Perhaps primitive compared to the nationalism of the early modern period. But the concept is still there and was accentuated during the war for independence. Especially considering how different Orlais and Ferelden are, in terms of culture, demeanour and mostly everything.

Every NPC we talk to demonstrates a certain "Fereldiness", from the love of the nation to the love of the mabari (a "national" symbol if you will). In addition, even the King, Loghain and others shout "For Ferelden" as the battlecry. That too shows that the concept of nationhood was indeed present in Ferelden and that it wasn't purely a feudal system.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[Phantom_1]

Well in all our playthroughts we saw that Cailan wasnt independent self thinking person, he was person which was easy to manipulate with , he was naive and idealist.
Everyone manipulated him Anora, Duncan , Eamon and perhaps even maybe Celene herself.

Loghain was loyal to his country for long time , he was best friend with Maric but he saw in what way the politics and leadership of Cailan is going to , so he decided that safety of his country and his ppl/army is more important than his king.

Can you imagine if someone from England monarchy would call and invite France army into England in medieval times, i think that guy which would dare to do that would have high opposition and would maybe be even executed.
Something like that Cailan tried to do with inviting Orlesian army , also i think that something aint very clean between coresponding between Cailan and Celene coz why was all that in secret behind back of his wife and legal queen Anora and Loghain as most important general of Feralden in that time.
And wounds of history between those two countrys still where fresh.

Modifié par Phantom_1, 23 février 2010 - 10:31 .

[Dubidox]

I don't get why the most likely interpretation of a familiar tone in a letter between two monarchs is that they plan to marry each other. I agree that the "permanent alliance" would probably involve a marriage, especially given the presence of the letter from Eamon, but I'd think it's far more likely that he would marry a princess of Orlais in a move to a)produce an heir and b)make nice with the neighbours.



That kind of move by Cailan in and of itself isn't a betrayal of the nation. I mean how many times did England and France war during their history and how many times did their monarchies cross-marry? I don't know specifics but I do know the general answer would be, "Lots."



My personal OOC take on Loghain is that he's a man with deep seated convictions who went over the edge trying to do what he thought was right. Whether he planned it or not I don't believe that he wasn't a little pleased to have a good excuse to leave Cailan to die, and from there things just snowballed. I get the impression that he was a soldier, not a politician, and it wouldn't be far fetched for him to think he could get away with a move that politically was risky as hell.



As far as taking what he says to you after you spare him as truth... seriously? You think he'd admit to willfully abandoning the King(and by extension the very person who now basically has control over whether he lives or dies)?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dubidox wrote...

I don't get why the most likely interpretation of a familiar tone in a letter between two monarchs is that they plan to marry each other. I agree that the "permanent alliance" would probably involve a marriage, especially given the presence of the letter from Eamon, but I'd think it's far more likely that he would marry a princess of Orlais in a move to a)produce an heir and b)make nice with the neighbours.

If indeed Cailan was planing to marry an Orlesian noblewoman, then Celene had no reason to write to him in such a familiar tone. If Celene wanted Cailan to marry an Orlesian princess, she would still address him as "King Cailan" like she did in the first letter. But she is talking familiarly with him. That means that she is planing for him to marry her and not anyone else. Otherwise, a ruler never addresses another by first name.

Cailan marrying an Orlesian noblewoman wouldn't be as disastrous (although Celene's genius can turn anything into a threat). But the letters in RTO strongly imply that the marriage being planned was between himself and Celene, for the reaon stated above.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 février 2010 - 10:28 .

[_Aine_]

I personally wouldn't put Anora above/below being privy to, if not a part of, the discussions between Cailan and Celene. She was intelligent and tricksy. Who really knows what the motivations behind the letters were. It did seem, based on correspondence and information gleaned in Ostagar (pre-destruction) that Cailan was trying for the battle to end all battles, a historical SINGLE battle to save the world from the blight. I think this was the "crumpled" part of the letter from Celene when she said she couldn't make it. Her troops were NOT coming to assist him into the history books. If there was *more* to it than that, of a personal nature, only the writers know for sure at this point. That has been my current take on it, anyway.

[Phantom_1]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


If indeed Cailan was planing to marry an Orlesian noblewoman, then Celene had no reason to write to him in such a familiar tone. If Celene wanted Cailan to marry an Orlesian princess, she would still address him as "King Cailan" like she did in the first letter. But she is talking familiarly with him. That means that she is planing for him to marry her and not anyone else. Otherwise, a ruler never addresses another by first name.

Cailan marrying an Orlesian noblewoman wouldn't be as disastrous (although Celene's genius can turn anything into a threat). But the letters in RTO strongly imply that the marriage being planned was between himself and Celene, for the reaon stated above.

Yeh i have strong suspicion that marriage  between Celene and Cailan  was planned hence thats why all the secrecy  and personal way of coresponding in them.

Tho problem wasnt marriage itself but problem might have been in how much naive Cailan could have been and how far  other ppl could go manipulating  him.

Modifié par Phantom_1, 23 février 2010 - 10:56 .

[Feraele]

I can't see any redeeming qualities in Loghain. Treachery..deliberate treachery does not include redemption..of same. He persecuted the Wardens, blamed what he did on the battlefield ..on the Wardens. Made deliberate attempts to slander them any time, any where. He agreed on the hiring of an assassin (Zevran) and that wasn't the only time.



They had a trap set up in the Pearl, poster leading unsuspecting warden supporters and wardens in...where their "elites" could murder them at their leisure.



Thats the FIRST thing I take care of..when I get to Denerim.



There is NO justification for selling people into slavery, yet at the landsmeet he attempts to justify exactly that. There is no justification for torture/kidnapping, but that was another thing he was party to.



He seemed even willing to sacrifice his own daughter..to further his goals.



The man was pretty much criminally insane. Death was the only thing he could expect next, either that or languish in a dark dungeon somewhere, to think on all the division, and grief he caused everyone.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Feraele wrote...
There is NO justification for selling people into slavery, yet at the landsmeet he attempts to justify exactly that. There is no justification for torture/kidnapping, but that was another thing he was party to.

He seemed even willing to sacrifice his own daughter..to further his goals.

For you, there is no justification. I won't get into a discussion about ethics and how I judge an action. But for me, Loghain's actions were justified, or at the very least, understandable.

And no, he never wanted to kill or sacrifice Anora. She made this up to gain your support.

[Feraele]

MrHimuraChan wrote...

I won't miss Loghain, but i also LOVE Simon Templeman's voice. Loghain deserved death and much more, but he also had (in my opinion) the best voice actor of all. I feel a little divided here... =/




Off-Topic: Loghain aside, i would pay  to see Anora groveling on the mud, having to eat from the trash to survive.

Anora..and Isolde for being an utter idiot. hehe

[Wishpig]

Feraele wrote...

MrHimuraChan wrote...

I won't miss Loghain, but i also LOVE Simon Templeman's voice. Loghain deserved death and much more, but he also had (in my opinion) the best voice actor of all. I feel a little divided here... =/




Off-Topic: Loghain aside, i would pay  to see Anora groveling on the mud, having to eat from the trash to survive.

Anora..and Isolde for being an utter idiot. hehe

Oh god... Isolde... I hated her SO much. As soon as she came running down that hill I'm like, yup, she needs to die.

[_Aine_]

Feraele wrote...

I can't see any redeeming qualities in Loghain.

If you can't see them, you can't see them.  Nothing wrong with that, just as those who DO see good qualities in him are just as justified.  It is the beauty of freedom of thought, freedom to like or dislike what we choose.  I respect both sides, as I feel they both hold their own truths.... seriously  

Perhaps even 10 years ago, I may have seen him differently.  I was a bit more black and white then, my beliefs more based in ideals than by tempered by the reality that permeates every best intention.  *shrugs*  I do not dispute that he was not sunshine, rainbows and unicorns.  He made some hard calls, some immoral calls and even perhaps some extremely wrong calls. WHO HASN"T who has truly lived?   I think as a man, he admits as much, which is to his credit.  He does not backtrack and lie, throw hissy fits and blame others or call for a battle to dispute any loss ( a la landsmeet). No, he takes it when cornered. He at this point, knew fully well he was wrong and admits as much. He knew long before this but was commited to his action already put into place. THIS is his true failing. An unwillingness to backtrack on his own position until it was too late. 

I never ask anyone, anymore to understand why I think or feel a certain thing. I feel it is fine to state your opinion, without the need for selling your stance so others side with you.    SHaring opinions so others understand, is different than telling people they are wrong ( this is a general statement btw, not to anyone at all) 

I like Loghain, more than most fictional characters.  He is much like a broken mirror really, reflecting what people dislike as the worst of their own natures while also showing us our own weakness in that which we hold the most dear.   Most that hate him, would always like to think they would ALWAYS do the right thing....but the saddest part of it, is that neither Cailan, nor Loghain, ( i personally think) believed that they were doing anything BUT the best thing for Ferelden.    They are merely the "idealised" representation of our own opinions, kindof.... its hard to explain, 

ONLY 30 years had passed since the situation with Orlais.  This is still, in historical terms, an open wound.  If you are the one carrying both the wound and the history of being a hero in baring that wound, things would be NOT as black and white as it is so easy for us to imagine them being as an outsider.  I have seen atrocities with my own eyes that have forever changed the way I view the simple things in life.  Until I did, I could not fully comprehend the nature of that level of suffering. There are people who have suffered far more, I no longer question the way they deal with things.  It isn't for me to judge.  

Loving something so desperately that you would do ANYTHING to protect it, yes is wholey and completely dangerous.  But the ones who say that they would never do the same, have never loved that deeply, cared that deeply or were 100% willing to give everything of themselves up for something else.  ( And I am not saying that that is NOT a good thing in itself, emotion is a dangerous ground to traverse and often safer to stay on the edges of in terns of depth.)  It is a healthier thing, to keep a part of yourself sacred, yours, and not aligned to a belief outside yourself.  

[Feraele]

He does blame others...he ran away with his tail between his legs instead doing his support flanking as he was supposed to do...as a result Cailan, his troops and all supporting wardens were massacred that day.



After the fact, he goes about spreading the lie to his troops and others how, the Wardens were evil incarnate..and how THEY supposed murdered Cailan.



How does he not blame others for his own deeds..its right there..

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

MrHimuraChan wrote...

Feraele wrote...

Anora..and Isolde for being an utter idiot. hehe

She was an idiot and i didn't liked her, but her accent cracked me up

Isolde: "Who ees dis man, Teee-gan?"

Don't be a French accentist.

Modifié par Solostran85, 23 février 2010 - 11:06 .