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[KnightofPhoenix]

Excellent post shantisand

I think the reason he never backtracked is because he thought he was the only one who could defend Ferelden.
He isn't the kind of person to waiver from his decisions, for good or bad. There is something admirable in that, but sometimes also foolish. But it's not easy in reality to change courses when one is committed. Some actions cannot be undone.

He never thought the Warden could pull it off (and who can blame him). That's why, when beaten by him/ her, he is willing to let go and die, knowing that someone better than him is here to save Ferelden.

People who see in black and white ae of course entitled to their view point. But imo, they are missing on alot about Loghain as a character.

[_Aine_]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Excellent post shantisand

I think the reason he never backtracked is because he thought he was the only one who could defend Ferelden.
He isn't the kind of person to waiver from his decisions, for good or bad. There is something admirable in that, but sometimes also foolish. But it's not easy in reality to change courses when one is committed. Some actions cannot be undone.

He never thought the Warden could pull it off (and who can blame him). That's why, when beaten by him/ her, he is willing to let go and die, knowing that someone better than him is here to save Ferelden.

People who see in black and white ae of course entitled to their view point. But imo, they are missing on alot about Loghain as a character.

Thank you, I try to stay out of these discussions  <3  I agree with what you say on the reasons why he didn't backtrack, 100%.  The most admirable qualities of course, are always when something works out for the best lol The same trait that leads to failure looks foolish   

If you kill him at landsmeet, he states that he can leave Ferelden in good hands. He is relieved almost.  He was NOT a King, or a leader, he was a man who LOVED the country and loved his friend who ruled it.  He was a kick-ass point-man.  Someone to provide the counterpoint to a leader with dreams and ideals.    

I didn't understand the whole story, until I let him live once, and it was HARD.  I really liked Alistair ( and still do!)   I purposely spent a lot of time getting to know this man, before I realized how much i liked the character.  There is more to people than meet the eye. if you take the value of a mans life, from 1 year of their life, there is a good chance you are missing a good percentage of truth.  

Anyway, thanks to all who have stated their opinions for and against as a debate and not an argument.   It is a pleasure to be able to disagree without mutilations and beheadings, bannings or otherwise name-calling, non?  

[Default137]

Dubidox wrote...

As far as taking what he says to you after you spare him as truth... seriously? You think he'd admit to willfully abandoning the King(and by extension the very person who now basically has control over whether he lives or dies)?

The problem is, Wynne confirms EVERYTHING he says, and she was at the battle as well. She confirms the Mages had to retreat, she admits he couldn't have made it, and she admits that he couldn't have know what would have happened. And why would he lie? Most of the stuff he tells you he says after you've already spared him, not before, its not like your suddenly going to gut him if he tells you the wrong thing.

I mean, how many of you who are argueing he should die saved Sten? I assume 90% of you, if not more, well the thing is, Sten killed an entire family in cold blood, innocent people who had no chance of defending themselves, he also is of a race that does not have very strong ties to Ferelden, for all intents and purposes, he is a bad man and should die for it.

Yet we all spare him, because "he could be useful", but the second we get to Loghain, a man whose only crimes might be walking away from a battle he could not win ( and thus keeping the remaining 2/5ths of the Ferelden Military alive ), getting rid of a political rival by putting him to sleep for a few months, and selling Elves into slavery so he could keep the Ferelden economy going during a time of Civil War, he suddenly deserves the maximum penalty of death? How the hell does that make sense.

Modifié par Default137, 23 février 2010 - 11:21 .

[Phantom_1]

Feraele wrote...

He does blame others...he ran away with his tail between his legs instead doing his support flanking as he was supposed to do...as a result Cailan, his troops and all supporting wardens were massacred that day.

After the fact, he goes about spreading the lie to his troops and others how, the Wardens were evil incarnate..and how THEY supposed murdered Cailan.

How does he not blame others for his own deeds..its right there..

He waited   with his troops for sign to comme to battle,   but i can only guess why he left and my guess is that somehow he saw that battle was lost as he didnt expected blight in first place and he didnt wanted to lose entire army with marching blindly into certain death .
He decided that moment that lives of his troops and safety of his country is more important than the king.

He meaned that wardens where evil in way that Duncan did manipulated to much with Cailan ,  and that Cailan did idealised  the way of how easy would be to win the war  against darkspawn based upon Duncans storys that nothing could prevent him to be in that Ostagar front  ,  even he couldnt.

[Harelda]

Feraele wrote...



He does blame others...he ran away with his tail between his legs instead doing his support flanking as he was supposed to do...as a result Cailan, his troops and all supporting wardens were massacred that day.



After the fact, he goes about spreading the lie to his troops and others how, the Wardens were evil incarnate..and how THEY supposed murdered Cailan.



How does he not blame others for his own deeds..its right there..

That's a little different. Loghain used the Wardens as a scapegoat to try and garner support from the other Nobles. In his mind he was doing the right thing by abandoning the King and some of the troops, to save the remainder of the army he had under his control, rather than lose the whole lot at Ostagar. It wasn't a fight that could be won, in his opinion. If he hadn't apportioned blame to the Wardens, he'd have shot his attempt for the throne in the foot. It was a convinient and not wholly unbelivable lie to strengthen his own position and allow him to lead Fereldan past the dangers of the Blight and Orlais (whoever misguided this might be).



Ulitmately though, when called out on his deeds at the Landsmeet, he stands by what he did and his reasons for doing so. If you take him to Ostagar again with Wynne, he'll even say he'd do the same thing again:



Loghain: All I remember is a fool's death and a hard choice. I'd make the same again.

Wynne: Even knowing all that you know now, Loghain Mac Tir?

Loghain: Even so. Come, madam, our bitterness is better spent against the darkspawn than each other.



Uh...It's a fine distinction and not one I'm entirely sure I've made clear.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

As much as I like Loghain in the two books, I can't say i care for him in the game. I do not think I can ever forgive him for giving up, and letting Duncan and Cailan die and countless other gray wardens. He was power hungry and might have killed his own daughter if things went wrong. Everything he's done in the game seems morally wrong. Like selling elfs into slavery. I do not know how people can see past this.

Modifié par Solostran85, 23 février 2010 - 11:27 .

[Default137]

Harelda wrote...

Feraele wrote...

He does blame others...he ran away with his tail between his legs instead doing his support flanking as he was supposed to do...as a result Cailan, his troops and all supporting wardens were massacred that day.

After the fact, he goes about spreading the lie to his troops and others how, the Wardens were evil incarnate..and how THEY supposed murdered Cailan.

How does he not blame others for his own deeds..its right there..

That's a little different. Loghain used the Wardens as a scapegoat to try and garner support from the other Nobles. In his mind he was doing the right thing by abandoning the King and some of the troops, to save the remainder of the army he had under his control, rather than lose the whole lot at Ostagar. It wasn't a fight that could be won, in his opinion. If he hadn't apportioned blame to the Wardens, he'd have shot his attempt for the throne in the foot. It was a convinient and not wholly unbelivable lie to strengthen his own position and allow him to lead Fereldan past the dangers of the Blight and Orlais (whoever misguided this might be).

Ulitmately though, when called out on his deeds at the Landsmeet, he stands by what he did and his reasons for doing so. If you take him to Ostagar again with Wynne, he'll even say he'd do the same thing again:

Loghain: All I remember is a fool's death and a hard choice. I'd make the same again.
Wynne: Even knowing all that you know now, Loghain Mac Tir?
Loghain: Even so. Come, madam, our bitterness is better spent against the darkspawn than each other.

Uh...It's a fine distinction and not one I'm entirely sure I've made clear.

He also says he'd do the exact same thing if it was Anora leading the battle. Which uh, look at how much he loves Anora.

[Cutlass Jack]

shantisands wrote...

I personally wouldn't put Anora above/below being privy to, if not a part of, the discussions between Cailan and Celene. She was intelligent and tricksy. Who really knows what the motivations behind the letters were. It did seem, based on correspondence and information gleaned in Ostagar (pre-destruction) that Cailan was trying for the battle to end all battles, a historical SINGLE battle to save the world from the blight. I think this was the "crumpled" part of the letter from Celene when she said she couldn't make it. Her troops were NOT coming to assist him into the history books. If there was *more* to it than that, of a personal nature, only the writers know for sure at this point. That has been my current take on it, anyway.

It would be my take on it as well. By all accounts, Celene and Anora got along famously. I think she knew and was involved. As for the secrecy? Well her father would have objected to even the most benign dealings with Orlais. As the events of Origins should show fairly well if nothing else.

But yes, until our Warden's are in Orlais checking out clickies in Celene's bedroom, we'll probably never know for sure.

[KnightofPhoenix]

shantisands wrote...
Anyway, thanks to all who have stated their opinions for and against as a debate and not an argument.   It is a pleasure to be able to disagree without mutilations and beheadings, bannings or otherwise name-calling, non?  

Indeed. I infact enjoyed this discussion here more than those I was involved with in the past. I am glad it remained civil and illuminating.

Just to make myself clear, I never said or thought that killing Loghain is a "wrong" choice. Whatever fate Loghain deserves is up for the player to decide. There is no "wrong" decision in this.
I personally felt that Loghain doesn't deserve death. And that was before I fully understood him. After I understood his character more, my original position strengthened and I actually find it hard to kill him in my other playthroughs. But that's me. I am not trying to impose my viewpoint on others.

What I would advise though, is for people to spare Loghain at least once and see what happens. I think it would make people understand him better and maybe change their opinion. Or maybe not. But at least they should try. 

[Wishpig]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What I would advise though, is for people to spare Loghain at least once and see what happens. I think it would make people understand him better and maybe change their opinion. Or maybe not. But at least they should try. 

Totally agree. What I did was save the game pre-decision finish it with Alistair and then once with Loghain. I love 'um both, but I couldn't help but wish I had the option to gain Loghain far earlier. He really is the deepest of the companions... which is really no surprise considering he's the star of the first novel.

I also suggest that people check out his conversations with dog. Put him in a totally diffrent light, it's gentle and sad.

[Harelda]

Default137 wrote...
He also says he'd do the exact same thing if it was Anora leading the battle. Which uh, look at how much he loves Anora.

 Could you provide the exact quote or give a bit more information about when that exchange took place please? The only one I can remember that seems similar to that doesn't really fit with the intent of your post, and I'd prefer not to jump the gun with a(nother) mashed up reply.

[Default137]

Harelda wrote...

Default137 wrote...
He also says he'd do the exact same thing if it was Anora leading the battle. Which uh, look at how much he loves Anora.

 Could you provide the exact quote or give a bit more information about when that exchange took place please? The only one I can remember that seems similar to that doesn't really fit with the intent of your post, and I'd prefer not to jump the gun with a(nother) mashed up reply.

• Wynne: And what if it had been your daughter in his place?
  Would you have regrets then?
• Loghain: Had I raised her to be such a fool as that, I'd
  have been in no better position to save her! What you forget is that
  your king was beyond saving. The darkspawn would either have had him or
  have had us all. Do you really believe we would have been so much better
  off had I chosen otherwise?

I believe its when you get the sword, although I may be mistaken. But yeah, it basically is him saying that if it was Anora who decided to fight on the front lines rather then Cailan, he would not have been able to save her either, and would have retreated from the battle just like he did with Cailan, because there was nothing he could have done.

Modifié par Default137, 23 février 2010 - 11:43 .

[LadyDamodred]

This is what makes him a tragic character and, in the end, is the reason he is so compelling. Would anyone of us care so much either way about Loghain if he were just an evil S-O-B? Hardly. There will always be questions about why he did what he did, questions that he himself may not have any good answers for. It seems that the better the character, the stronger the emotions people have about him. Some people love him, some hate him, but no one can really deny he is a deep and complex character.

As a side note, since I just re-read TST and The Calling, is the Empress mentioned in TST Celene? If so, I have a question. I know the timeline isn't perfect. Some dates have to be wrong for everything to fit, but regardless, it would make Celene anywhere from 32-37. This is sort of old to be proposing marriage now, especially if she doesn't have any children yet. Anyone have any info to help clarify this for me? Thanks.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 23 février 2010 - 11:45 .

[_Aine_]

Wishpig wrote...

Totally agree. What I did was save the game pre-decision finish it with Alistair and then once with Loghain. I love 'um both, but I couldn't help but wish I had the option to gain Loghain far earlier. He really is the deepest of the companions... which is really no surprise considering he's the star of the first novel.

I also suggest that people check out his conversations with dog. Put him in a totally diffrent light, it's gentle and sad.

Me too Wishpig.  100% what you said.   

Another moment of humanity was at the landsmeet with the " daughters are always 6 years old with pigtails and skinned knees , Anora" line ... or whatever it was.  There is humanity in him, certainly.  I suspect the writers KNOW how 2 dimensional they made Loghain in the beginning because the world, at that stage,  needed a scapegoat.  In the end, the true villian(s) are harder to find.   

I'ma go make a new character now and kill things.  Being that there is no Loghain Anonymous group, a girl must deal as a girl will....with more bloodshed! lol  

[Harelda]

Default137 wrote...

Harelda wrote...

Default137 wrote...
He also says he'd do the exact same thing if it was Anora leading the battle. Which uh, look at how much he loves Anora.

 Could you provide the exact quote or give a bit more information about when that exchange took place please? The only one I can remember that seems similar to that doesn't really fit with the intent of your post, and I'd prefer not to jump the gun with a(nother) mashed up reply.

Wynne: And what if it had been your daughter in his place?
Would you have regrets then?


Loghain: Had I raised her to be such a fool as that, I'd
have been in no better position to save her! What you forget is that
your king was beyond saving. The darkspawn would either have had him or
have had us all. Do you really believe we would have been so much better
off had I chosen otherwise?

 Ah, that was the one I was thinking of. Oh well, onwards! I don't feel that his intent there is to say he would have willingly left Anora to die. He's saying that Cailan's actions were foolish, and couldn't have ended any other way. If Anora had done the same thing Cailan did Loghain would be unable to save her.  As you're on the same page I am right now, scroll down to his conversation with Shale where they're discussing how if he'd killed Anora he would have had the throne secure before the Warden's got there. I honestly believe he really does love his daughter.

[_Aine_]

He actually has a conversation with Shale where he admits he would not have sacrificed his own daughter. oh you mentioned that, edit. Ima go make that character I spoke of now

[speedingpullet]

I, too, have really enjoyed this discussion - and I think - Knight - that you've put your argument forward really well and impartially.



I still fundamentally disagree with you about Loghain, but you've definately given me something to think about and you've argued your case well.

Personally, I still think he's a guilty as hell, even with the 'justifications', but its been an education to see it from another's perspective, where the light is a bit - shall we say - 'grayer'?



So, kudos, and thank you all for the fish... ;-)

[Default137]

Harelda wrote...

Default137 wrote...

Harelda wrote...

Default137 wrote...
He also says he'd do the exact same thing if it was Anora leading the battle. Which uh, look at how much he loves Anora.

 Could you provide the exact quote or give a bit more information about when that exchange took place please? The only one I can remember that seems similar to that doesn't really fit with the intent of your post, and I'd prefer not to jump the gun with a(nother) mashed up reply.

Wynne: And what if it had been your daughter in his place?
Would you have regrets then?


Loghain: Had I raised her to be such a fool as that, I'd
have been in no better position to save her! What you forget is that
your king was beyond saving. The darkspawn would either have had him or
have had us all. Do you really believe we would have been so much better
off had I chosen otherwise?

 Ah, that was the one I was thinking of. Oh well, onwards! I don't feel that his intent there is to say he would have willingly left Anora to die. He's saying that Cailan's actions were foolish, and couldn't have ended any other way. If Anora had done the same thing Cailan did Loghain would be unable to save her.  As you're on the same page I am right now, scroll down to his conversation with Shale where they're discussing how if he'd killed Anora he would have had the throne secure before the Warden's got there. I honestly believe he really does love his daughter.

Oh I agree totally!

My intent was not to suggest that he didn't love Anora, its plain to see that he does, and as you said, he even tells Shale that, rather I was trying to say that he mentions that had his daughter been in Cailans place, he couldn't do anything to save her, which really drives home the argument that Cailan was dead no matter if Loghain charged or not, and the fact that Loghain said he would have been unable to save his daughter, and probably wouldn't have charged even for her, because the loss of men would have been so great really says something about his character, and what really did happen at Ostagar.

I really hope he gets even more development in DA:A, Gaider really has a great character here, and I want to see how he grows now that he's a Warden, I expect he'll take it in stride, but it will be interesting to see, especially if you put hardened Alistar as King, as suddenly Loghain and Alistar are going to have to work together in the game, even if it is just in cameo wars.

[Vicious]

Loghain is awesome, love him or hate him [though the haters tend to have less educated opinions]



One of my favorite Loghain lines is in RtO when he meets with the King's Guard in the beginning.



Guard: "Better to be a deserter than a traitor, right, Loghain?"



Loghain, "At least when I left I took my men with me. Maybe you should have grown a spine and done the same."





People hate Loghain because he's just too real for them.

[Morroian]

Harelda wrote...

That's a little different. Loghain used the Wardens as a scapegoat to try and garner support from the other Nobles. In his mind he was doing the right thing by abandoning the King and some of the troops, to save the remainder of the army he had under his control, rather than lose the whole lot at Ostagar. It wasn't a fight that could be won, in his opinion.

Yet it was his plan.

[Morroian]

Vicious wrote...

People hate Loghain because he's just too real for them.

Oh yeah he tries to get us killed, he sells our people into slavery, he's complicit in the murder of our family and other nobles but we hate him because he's too real and we're uneducated idiots.

Modifié par Morroian, 24 février 2010 - 02:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morroian wrote...

Vicious wrote...

People hate Loghain because he's just too real for them.

he's complicit in the murder of our family.

He isn't.

[Default137]

Morroian wrote...

Harelda wrote...

That's a little different. Loghain used the Wardens as a scapegoat to try and garner support from the other Nobles. In his mind he was doing the right thing by abandoning the King and some of the troops, to save the remainder of the army he had under his control, rather than lose the whole lot at Ostagar. It wasn't a fight that could be won, in his opinion.

Yet it was his plan.

Yes.

But as has been pointed out many times, it was a plan built on the thought that this was not a blight.

You have to realize, there is a huge difference between a blight and just random Darkspawn raids, during a blight, they are much more intelligent, come in much larger numbers, and are overall much more brutal, however when they are scattered, or just raiding, they are generally very stupid and easy to kill.

Nobody thought it was anything more then bringing the large army to beat up the small group of Darkspawn that had come to the surface in a great battle so that Cailan could be remembered as the hero he wanted to be, and Loghain built his plan around that thought, he refused to believe this was a full blight, and even Cailan dismissed Duncans claims.

There is no way Loghain could have ever imagined the Darkspawn would storm the tower, or that they would flank the army and attack the Mages before the fight started to cause them to flee, there was no way he could have known the tower was breached, and the light would be lit far to late. The fight was lost not because Loghain failed to plan, but because they planned for a Darkspawn Massacre that would go down in the history books, not an actual battle, and it came back and bit Cailan in the ass in the end.

Literally, everything that could have gone wrong, did go wrong, the tower was attacked through tunnels, and the guards there were slaughtered, the army got flanked and the Mages retreated shortly after the battle begain, without the Mages, the front lines got slaughtered, and by the time you lit that torch, it was probably just clean up for the Darkspawn.

And no, he had nothing to do with the attack on the Couslands, he had nothing to do with Vaughen attacking the City Elves, he had nothing to do with the Mage Tower, and most likely didn't even plan to kill Cailan judging from his actions.

So basically, you killed a man for selling slaves to save his nation.

Modifié par Default137, 24 février 2010 - 02:10 .

[Wolfaura]

I've never liked Loghain. But when playing my 2nd playthrough. I see he does things because he thinks in his own twisted way it's best for Ferelden and his loyalty is to the country and what he thinks is best for it above all else. And I feel like I kind of admire him. And I realise how silly King Cailan is. He seems like a foolish dreamer.

But regardless I don't like the way Loghain deals with things. He is rather ruthless, heartless and evil and I don't condone his actions at all. I don't like him as regardless of his intentions he's a heartless murderer.



Even though I don't like him Iam going to recruit him in this playthrough as I like to see all facets of the story.

[Vicious]

Morroian wrote...

Vicious wrote...

People hate Loghain because he's just too real for them.

Oh yeah he tries to get us killed, he sells our people into slavery, he's complicit in the murder of our family and other nobles but we hate him because he's too real and we're uneducated idiots.

Like I said, if your opinion is uneducated your arguments just don't hold as much water. There's plenty of fine people who have posted on this thread, looked at things from Loghain's point of view, and said, "Nope, he's still an evil bastard."

Those people have my respect. You, however, are just one of the uninformed individuals I referred to.

And at no point did I call you an idiot. But if you wanna call yourself that, enjoy.