114 réponses à ce sujet

[Atranes]

It's hard to pick a "best" in either category, but DA:O, while fabulous overall, isn't the best in both categories.



I prefer the voice acting (and dialogue system, but you didn't ask about that) in ME2. Main character voicing is a big deal for any potential "best" VA. There were some really good performances in DA:O VA though. Steve Valentine's Alistair is great, especially in his eulogy for a human noble female (favorite ending, so sad).



With respect to writing, DA:O is certainly up there. It's better than the Bethesda sandbox games, which by their sandbox nature have to focus on exploration more than story. DA:O also enjoyed freedom to create the world, which is nice. For every game that comes in a preconceived world, there are going to be opportunities and restrictions with respect to writing and how much you can do, which has to be factored into the "writing" score. For example, I think KOTOR was fabulous for working within the overall SW construct, but there were limitations associated with that framework. I'll agree with others that PS:T is amazing. Probably my favorite writing in a game. But PS:T also had to work within the AD&D framework, what with the Blood War and all, that made it a niche game for people who actually understand/were willing to understand that stuff. The writing in KOTOR and PS:T (I'll even throw in Mask of the Betrayer) may have been better than DA:O, but was limited by the conditions of the setting. With its own world, DA:O is more approachable by non-initiates.



All in all, I think DA:O is great and up there in both categories, but there are just too many variables for there to be a "best." As a combined game, it's very strong.



As a request, in addition to a voiced main character, if we could get ME2-style interrupts, it would be awesome. There are many people in DA:O that I'd like to slap or push down some stairs (for my renegade side) or just give a hug to (for my paragon side). I know you can slap Isolde, but you have to listen to more of it than you would with an interrupt.

[eternalnightmare13]

In terms of plot the writing is okay. In terms of dialogue they have some very funny one liners.



The VA is very good. I personally prefer Bioware's VA compared to the VA in other games.

[Wretched Gnu]

It's vey cool to see all of these intelligent and well-articulated perspectives on this and other games.  One of the reasons I wanted to bring this up is to register my "vote" within Bioware's earshot about what is and is not important to me (for one) in the creative presentation of these games.

With that in mind, I still think it can't be repeated enough that the writing is not at all the same thing as the story or plot.  Even among the most thoughtful posts in this thread, these things tend to get conflated -- possibly leading one to conclude that if you have an interesting storyline, that means you have good writing as well. 

For me, it is far more important to have good writing than an "interesting" plot.  To me, mere plot is the shallowest and least important aspect of any fiction.  I prefer Conrad to Kipling.  Despite the fact that Kipling has more interesting and adventuresome plots, the actual thought, dialogue and verbal conceptualization on the page -- the writing, in short -- doesn't hold a candle to Conrad.

If a game is structured around a story or plot I've heard before, that's fine.  Most great literature is too.  Most of Shakespeare's plays are based on stories in other sources.  But if the game is poorly written, it is soiled from beginning to end.  Reading a clever plot that's poorly written is like eating a great meal, but with a permanent bad taste in your mouth.

So for me, the moral of the story is: if you have to choose between (1) a good writer of prose and dialogue and (2) a good plot constructor, go for (1).

Modifié par Wretched Gnu, 24 février 2010 - 01:59 .

[urielpie]

Everyone knows world of warcraft has the best writing.

[DrDuckman]

I'm forced to say, writing wise, Planescape Torment does win by quite a margin. But then again PT's writing was so far above most games, this is no great shame. DA has very good writing.



For the voice acting, I can't say. It's really good in DA, but it has not stuck with me, unlike say, the Legacy of Kane series. Or even better, Grim Fantango, and other such classics. For RPGs though, yeah, I'd say DA easly wins on the VA.

[Wretched Gnu]

DrDuckman wrote...
I'm forced to say, writing wise, Planescape Torment does win by quite a margin.

Again -- are you talking about writing or story/plot?

I can see why many would prefer Torment's story.  Personally, I found its metaphysical pretenses to be a little silly, and its philosophical register pretty naive.  But it is beautifully constructed as an interactive experience.

But Torment's writing?  Not so much.  Like most games, it made me cringe pretty frequently. The atomic unit of its writing was the ready-to-hand phrase-block, something that can be called -- although not entirely accurately -- cliche.  More damning were the metaphors it flung about unthinkingly, willy-nilly, without any coordination with the terms around them. 

That was my memory of Torment, anyway -- even though its writing was better than the norm.  The reason Dragon Age wins for me is that it never, at any point, makes me cringe.  To me, that's a huge accomplishment in the world of computer games.

Modifié par Wretched Gnu, 24 février 2010 - 04:32 .

[urielpie]

oo we got a planescape basher up in here

[AlanC9]

You have to grade on a curve, though. Relative to other games of its era, PS:T was clearly superior.

Edit: which implies but doesn't state the answer to the thread question. So I'll state it. DA wins, hands down and obviously, in voice acting. Writing too, though less completely.  The main plot isn't revolutionary, but the totality of the writing wins. (I'm judging writing the way Oscar voters judge screenplays).

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 février 2010 - 05:08 .

[Sylixe]

Wretched Gnu wrote...

I admit my gaming experience isn't comprehensive; but the dialogue, story structure and voice work in DA is by far the best I've seen.

This is the only game I've played, in fact, whose dialogue never makes me cringe.

The writing is helped by the fact that the voice acting is uniformly perfect.

(I loved the Baldur's Gate games; but the dialogue was especially poor.)

Combine those things with the fact that the DA combat and skill systems, to me, are far superior the Dungeons and Dragons rigamarole to which Bioware had once been bound, and the result is the only RPG I've been happy to play through twice.

Maybe the bottom half of a top 20 list but not the best by a long shot.

[simplificationizer]

Wretched Gnu wrote...

(I loved the Baldur's Gate games; but the dialogue was especially poor.)

Huh? You must have played the console BG then. BG2's dialogue is often very tongue-in-cheek, but it's simply brilliant. I particularly enjoyed any dialogue involving Saemon Havarian.

DA's dialogue is very uninspired, IMO.

[Aldandil]

I hate trying to determine if something is best. I'll satisfy myself with saying that it's very good, and to be honest, I'd say that that is more informative.

[Maria Caliban]

Wretched Gnu wrote...

DA = Best RPG writing and voice acting to date?

No.

[RangerSG]

Wretched Gnu wrote...

DrDuckman wrote...
I'm forced to say, writing wise, Planescape Torment does win by quite a margin.

Again -- are you talking about writing or story/plot?

I can see why many would prefer Torment's story.  Personally, I found its metaphysical pretenses to be a little silly, and its philosophical register pretty naive.  But it is beautifully constructed as an interactive experience.

But Torment's writing?  Not so much.  Like most games, it made me cringe pretty frequently. The atomic unit of its writing was the ready-to-hand phrase-block, something that can be called -- although not entirely accurately -- cliche.  More damning were the metaphors it flung about unthinkingly, willy-nilly, without any coordination with the terms around them. 

That was my memory of Torment, anyway -- even though its writing was better than the norm.  The reason Dragon Age wins for me is that it never, at any point, makes me cringe.  To me, that's a huge accomplishment in the world of computer games.

I will be part of the rare dissenting vote on PS:T. I thought it was over-pretentious, poorly paced, and the main character was unsympathetic. The last is a disaster in a sole protagonist game, because if you don't like the protagonist, you can forget about liking the game.

The story was fascinating. But the gameplay was (even at the time) clunky. And the amount of writing detracted from the experience for me. To me Torment is a game to be read not played. And that is why it was a commercial failure.

[Wretched Gnu]

Colenda wrote...
What the BGs did in their dialogue - combine occasional melodramatic sincerity with lots of  tongue in cheek and comedy moments - was pretty much the only way to proceed, and they mostly got away with it.

Well, no, I think this was a major part of what was wrong with those games.  Amateur writers think you can just toss together comedy and melodrama like you're making a salad.  To pull that off, in reality, you have to be a master of dramatic tone.  The BG writers were, at best, masters of fan fiction.  The "comedy" was especially embarassing, as it was so clearly the product of adolescent boys (or the mentality thereof -- which, as we know, can extend well into one's adulthood, especially among those whose bookshelves are 90% genre fiction).  The DA dialogue, by contrast, was clearly written by adult professionals who know which connections should and shouldn't be made in an arc of dialogue, and who have an encompassing sense of tone (as opposed to the choo-choo train, "tack-on-the-next-line" approach of the BG games).

[el-pinko-grande]

Wretched Gnu wrote...
 The "comedy" was especially embarassing, as it was so clearly the product of adolescent boys (or the mentality thereof -- which, as we know, can extend well into one's adulthood, especially among those whose bookshelves are 90% genre fiction).

God, thank you. The humor in the BG series all seemed to consist of "Hey, look at this wacky gnome!" And yet huge chunks of the Western RPG community seems to think it was brilliant comedy. I wouldn't say it felt like the product of adolescent boys, though, so much as middle-aged AD&D grognards. It reminded exactly of the sort of thing you'd see in Dragon Magazine, or hear in the back room of your local gaming store.

There was lots I loved about Baldur's Gate, and I don't think games like Dragon Age would be possible without it, but humor wasn't its strong suit.

[melkathi]

I think Dragon Age is an amazing game, that ranks very high in all categories.



As writting goes, no game has yet managed to knock Planescape: Torment of it's throne in my opinion.



Voice acting in Dragon Age is extremly good and most importantly: believable. Morrigan especially is a joy to listen to and regardless of how many times I have heard it now, I never skip a word in the scene she first appears. Just as I always listen to Oghren's words at the gates.



Of course there are other games that had voice acting that I absolutely loved. Malcom Mcdowell as president H. Eden in Fallout 3 for example.

Grey deLisle as Therese Voermon in Vampire: Bloodlines.

[WelshDragon69]

Story/writing/depth, it's definitely up there in the Top 3, if not the best.



Voice Acting, I'd definitely say that it's the best I've ever hear.

[Alandros]

WelshDragon69 wrote...

Story/writing/depth, it's definitely up there in the Top 3, if not the best.

Voice Acting, I'd definitely say that it's the best I've ever hear.

Agreed

[Elfseeker]

Personally i would have liked to hear the pc speak their lines. Not always the intent behind an option is made clear before the npc blows up in your face.

A silent PC is only making sense in the absence of voice. We -do- select voice for our chars. So it's pretty wasteful -not- to let the VA's for those go on to speak the lines. Most conversations appear more or less 'railroaded' anyway, so there can't be that big a window of 'variations' available.
They would seem to have a clear intent behind each option, so having them spoken would have made for a more complete experience, and made our choice of voice more than a detail we choose and then never hear from again(I do not acknowledge battlecries and the like as 'speaking')

On the other hand, I would have liked more -text-. in the storing of npc-to-npc conversations, for instance. A tad annoying that nothing gets logged if the PC is not involved.

Modifié par Elfseeker, 24 février 2010 - 11:44 .

[Hejhej1234]

I'd have to say Mass Effect overshines DA when it comes to story and acting.



Still awesome though. Both are top notch games with depth.

[RangerSG]

Elfseeker wrote...

Personally i would have liked to hear the pc speak their lines. Not always the intent behind an option is made clear before the npc blows up in your face.

A silent PC is only making sense in the absence of voice. We -do- select voice for our chars. So it's pretty wasteful -not- to let the VA's for those go on to speak the lines. Most conversations appear more or less 'railroaded' anyway, so there can't be that big a window of 'variations' available.
They would seem to have a clear intent behind each option, so having them spoken would have made for a more complete experience, and made our choice of voice more than a detail we choose and then never hear from again(I do not acknowledge battlecries and the like as 'speaking')

On the other hand, I would have liked more -text-. in the storing of npc-to-npc conversations, for instance. A tad annoying that nothing gets logged if the PC is not involved.

It's not "wasteful" to not let them speak the lines. It's a matter of fact that the cost/benefit ration would've meant halving the length of the game. DA:O is not ME. Assuming it can operate on the same model is poor logic.

[The_Abyss]

No.



Not saying DA is a bad game, it IS good, but to me, storywise it still doesn't top planescape or ultima 7.



The voice acting is good, but there are better.

[Sam -stone- serious]

Personaly speaking? No. This game has some good voice acting for the main characters but absolutely pathetic for the secondary ones (it destroys the immersion due to it) and the writing is nothing to write home about. Far too "modern" and far too simplistic for my tastes.