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[CakesOnAPlane]

I prefered mass effect 2 + bioshock 1 voice acting, but it was good.

[Wretched Gnu]

Colenda wrote...

Wretched Gnu wrote...

Colenda wrote...
For most non-initiates to literary studies, including me, 'writing' is a comprehensive word that includes both style and plot. Seems pedantic to insist on a distinction. A lot of people really don't care about nice prose, they want a juicy plot and dialogue to get their teeth into - so for them Stephen King is a good writer, John Banville is a boring writer. 

But then those people would also presume King is a better writer than Dostoevsky and Conrad ... and whether or not "most" people believe this -- why would one want to have this discussion with them? 

(BTW the superiority of those writers, despite their unexciting plots, is not simply a matter of "style" either....)

They're free to regard King as a better writer than Dostoevsky and all his clan. It's their prerogative. I'm free to prefer Ovid to the lot of them. Since so much of literary response is personal, and taste changes almost as often as the tides, we can all be right, and all be wrong at the same time. It is impossible to prove objective superiority or inferiority, since literature is not a science. 

I have no idea who has ever pretended that literary evaluation could be based on measures of quantity (the only measure that could be "scientific").  To come to the conclusion that no evaluation is possible beyond quantification, or that a literary text has absolutely no objective effects, is a little bewildering.  It would mean that a Shakesperean drama has no attributes that could elevate it, as writing, above an episode of SpongeBob SquarePants.

Modifié par Wretched Gnu, 28 février 2010 - 05:27 .

[Wah up]

I was a big fan of Oblivion. Their story line, side quests and other interesting things did it for me.



Also the world where you can explore. Back in 2003 when i got my Xbox with Oblivion I was exploring like mad. It's good just coming across a small settlemnt or guard patrol.



Dragon Age Origins wasn't as free. It forced you down paths. An open world Dragon Age Origins would be...

[Wretched Gnu]

Colenda wrote...
A text has objective structures. Their effect depends on the person whom they affect. 

Not really.  If that were the case, each person would think of completely different things when they read the word "dog".  The reason people associate that term with an animal instead of a doorknob is because language is a historically-conditioned network of associations that is not peculiar to any single person (i.e., it's not subjective).  That's not to say an individual can't have subjective associations with a given word or phrase; but without its vast objective associations, language wouldn't "work" at all.

[Dick Delaware]

Wretched Gnu is right on the money. While there is a grey area in terms of evaluating the quality of a particular work of literature, it is not completely subjective either. There are objective reasons why a book, like Twilight for instance, can't be taken as seriously as, say, any of Dostoevsky's novels would be.

But anyways, we're getting a bit off-topic.

One of the weak points in Dragon Age's writing (not plot) was that the atmosphere usually failed to convey the idea of the "dark fantasy" that it was marketed as. Some parts, particularly towards the end have an ominous feeling (as well as the Deep Roads), but for the most part, the story is rarely ever dark. I think it's because many of the companions would feel out of place in a truly grim setting, and the banters are too goofy at times.

Modifié par Dick Delaware, 01 mars 2010 - 01:12 .

[SirOccam]

I think Dragon Age is the best RPG I've ever played, but granted I haven't played quite a few of the classics most people point to as the best.

I loved the voice acting. I've been a huge Claudia Black fan since Farscape and later Stargate, and her voice is one of the many reasons. I had never heard of Corrine Kempa (Leliana) before this, but now I will definitely be keeping my eye out. I've raved enough about her ridiculously perfect voice in other posts, so I won't repeat myself here. (It's so freaking hot). Even some smaller characters featured some of my all-time favorite voices, like Cam Clarke and Jim Cummings.

But the one thing that really really won me over was how much your character could grow personally and interact with his or her companions. Every time I read a good fantasy novel (or series), there's huge stuff threatening the world going on, of course, but the protagonists go through a lot personally as well. I think it's this kind of stuff that is the future of RPGs.

It feels like somehow lots of RPGs are less about freedom and more about stats and numbers and managing inventories. If you've ever played a pen-and-paper RPG, what was so fun about it? Calculating what your last roll was and what bonuses are applied and what number you have to exceed, or the fact that you could seriously do whatever your mind could think up?

I think the epic storyline part of the equation is already pretty much "good enough." Not that there's no room for improvement, but there are many, many games out there with a good epic story. Where there IS a lot of potential is in relationships, both platonic and romantic, and the nuance and subtlety therein. Although Dragon Age has (at least in my admittedly limited experience) made huge leaps in that area, there is still so much more that could be done.

For one thing, I'd like to see three "approval meters" instead of just one. One for respect (and this is what would confer leadership bonuses), one for amiability/friendship, and one for love. It always felt a little stilted that giving someone a gift could counteract their disapproval of you murdering someone, or that you basically have to be a sycophant in order to keep someone's approval high. It seems like someone should be able to have massive respect for you but not personally like you, or have little respect for your leadership but still have a crush, etc.

Speaking of that last point, I wish companions could act of their own volition a little more. You basically have the "pick of the litter," as it were, and every possible romantic interest is just waiting for you to say the word. Why not have some companions just not like you "in that way" no matter what, but maybe if you had something in common with them, like being the same class, they might feel differently? Maybe some don't just want to wait for you to make the first move. Maybe some will try to win you back after you dump them?

Sorry, this is turning into a huge wall of text. I've had this percolating in my head for several days and it has to come out.  I'll wrap up by saying I loved the voice acting and 95% of the storyline stuff. I will agree that it didn't seem as "dark fantasy" as it could have been (maybe a little more comic relief than was really needed, and some pretty silly censorship of the love scenes), and companions' relationship statuses really felt like switches being thrown instead of complex and nuanced.

Modifié par SirOccam, 01 mars 2010 - 01:44 .

[Wretched Gnu]

Dick Delaware wrote...
One of the weak points in Dragon Age's writing (not plot) was that the atmosphere usually failed to convey the idea of the "dark fantasy" that it was marketed as. Some parts, particularly towards the end have an ominous feeling (as well as the Deep Roads), but for the most part, the story is rarely ever dark. I think it's because many of the companions would feel out of place in a truly grim setting, and the banters are too goofy at times.

I agree.  Truly "dark fantasy" requires a more stylized approach, in both writing and visual presentation.  Visually, the developers seem to have felt the pull of Oblivion-style photorealism somewhat, which works against such stylization -- and to a certain extent the down-to-earth realism of the dialogue has the same effect.  (Although what you say about the mood-shattering "goofy" banter is something I felt less in this game than in others, especially the BG games) 

But I'm not sure Bioware was ever really shooting for "dark fantasy" as you and I are conceiving it.  There's a lot of evidence that by "dark fantasy" they're simply referring to the violence, and to the fact that in the story you're frequently forced to choose between two macabre and morally disturbing outcomes.

[Wretched Gnu]

SirOccam wrote...
It always felt a little stilted that giving someone a gift could counteract their disapproval of you murdering someone, or that you basically have to be a sycophant in order to keep someone's approval high.

Yeah, this still throws me as I'm playing.  With my camp-mates, I keep expecting that I might be able to win the approval of some of the sterner characters by not acting sycophantic -- that they might respect me more because I don't toady to them.  But no, it seems you just have to flatter everybody in order to gain their approval.  Although this is mitigated a bit by the fact that certain characters will disapprove if you try to talk to them too much.

Your three-layered approval system is a good idea.

[RangerSG]

Wretched Gnu wrote...

SirOccam wrote...
It always felt a little stilted that giving someone a gift could counteract their disapproval of you murdering someone, or that you basically have to be a sycophant in order to keep someone's approval high.

Yeah, this still throws me as I'm playing.  With my camp-mates, I keep expecting that I might be able to win the approval of some of the sterner characters by not acting sycophantic -- that they might respect me more because I don't toady to them.  But no, it seems you just have to flatter everybody in order to gain their approval.  Although this is mitigated a bit by the fact that certain characters will disapprove if you try to talk to them too much.

Your three-layered approval system is a good idea.

I do think that you get some of this though already. This is the no-spoilers, so we can't talk particulars, unfortunately. That said, I don't think this is a bad idea at all. Assuming implementation is reasonable.

[Corylea]

I agree that the voice acting in DA:O was generally of very high quality.  I thought Leliana's accent wavered quite a lot, and some of the minor characters weren't acted well, but Alistair, Duncan, Morrigan, Wynne, Zevran, and Logain were all standouts.

I loved The Witcher (the first one), and I loved Planescape: Torment.  I thought both of them had great stories and wonderful writing.  But the most wrenching moment, EVER, for me in a game was at the end of DA: O.  I fell in love with Alistair and thought it was good for Ferelden to marry him off to Queen Anora.  I didn't know about "hardening" his character at that time, so I didn't have the option to stick around as his mistress.  Leaving him behind at the end of the game, giving him to Anora and knowing that we had to stop loving each other ... that was the hardest thing I ever had to do in a computer game.

Forget boss fights.  Leaving love behind for the good of the nation, that's what's really hard. 

Part of why I fell in love with Alistair was the great writing, of course.  The cirumstances were compelling, and of course the last two Grey Wardens in Ferelden would cling to one another.  But a lot of it was Steve Valentine's wonderful voice acting.  The lines he had to say were great -- wonderful writing there -- but the spin he put on them was fabulous.  Alistair's sweetness, goodness, and goofy humor went straight to my heart, and I couldn't help but fall in love with him.

During my second play-through, I thought I'd develop a relationship with Zevran, to see what that was like.  But I couldn't.  Zevran is cute and fun and sexy, but Alistair ... I fell in love with him all over again.  They say that women like bad boys, but sweetness is what gets me, every time.

I don't know if Steve Valentine ever reads these boards.  Probably not.  But I'm grateful to him for taking a video game job seriously and giving such a stellar performance.  Like Morte from Planescape: Torment or Geralt from The Witcher, Alistair is a character I will remember forever.

Thanks, Mr. Valentine.  And thanks, Bioware writers. 

Modifié par Corylea, 17 novembre 2011 - 08:18 .

[csfteeeer]

I Think the Writing(minus pacing issues) and Voice acting(minus PAINFULLY fake accents *Cough*Marjolaine*Cough*)are very strong, but not the best.

i think other Games like the Uncharted Games have better voice acting overall.

As for writing, well, is it too late to join the "Planescape Torment story rules" Band wagon?

[Corylea]

csfteeeer wrote...
As for writing, well, is it too late to join the "Planescape Torment story rules" Band wagon?

It is NEVER too late to join the Planescape: Torment story rules bandwagon!  I played Torment for the first time just a few months ago, and even in 2011, I was blown away by that game.  The creativity, the depth, the characters, the story -- just incredible!

I played both Dragon Age 2 and The Witcher 2 for the first time this year, in addition to playing Planescape: Torment for the first time.  Of the three of them, I thought Planescape: Torment was by far the best game.  The Witcher 2 had better graphics, and combat in Dragon Age 2 was less clunky than the combat in Planescape: Torment.  But an RPG is made up of more than graphics and combat, and Planescape: Torment had something special that the other two couldn't match. 

But this thread is about voice acting.  I thought Duncan's accent was much better than some of the other accents and wondered if the actor actually WAS the upper-class British person he sounded like.  I looked him up on IMDB and found out that the actor is from ... Louisiana.  Um, no, that's certainly not his real accent.  Now, THAT'S a guy who can do accents!

Modifié par Corylea, 17 novembre 2011 - 08:21 .

[MyNameIsPower]

Corylea wrote...
... I loved Planescape: Torment.

I enjoyed Planescape: Torment, however I don't consider it a game.  I think of it as an interactive novel.

Corylea wrote...
Thanks, Mr. Valentine.  And thanks, Bioware writers. 

I play a male Warden and consider Alistair a very close friend, like a brother.  As you say, it's all in the writing and acting, which are both excellent.