121 réponses à ce sujet

[Gaddmeister]

FredegarKadere wrote...

..stating that the reason the game flows the way it does because of having to be broken into two discs on the XBOX 360 is a silly idea. Both discs have all data pertaining to Squad members, Powers, Abilities, the underlying combat/physics mechanics, etc. The differences between the discs are the level/mission layouts, the textures for those areas, and that is probably about it..
The fact that recruitment is the way it is isn't a technical limitation imposed by being for a console, but because of a story design decision.

But the mission levels are not on both discs if I understand correctly. That's why they've divided the recruitment missions the way they have. So I think it actually is the two disc on console problem, at least part of it. However it is of course possible that they made that design choice as well.

[Varenus Luckmann]

jtav wrote...
I suspect that the real reason is to keep from crashing the game if someone found a glitch that would allow them to recruit a squaddie earlier than they were "supposed" to.

Maybe you missed the point of the thread. The issue is that there are (to my surprise, actually) no such glitches or missing dialogue.

The only one that I don't think have been extensively tested is Samara. But let's be honest. Who really cares about Samara?

[The Angry One]

Since there's already a way to manually trigger the Collector ambush, if the random ambush could be turned off it would at least give players who want Legion a little earlier some breathing room.

[The Angry One]

Gaddmeister wrote...

FredegarKadere wrote...

..stating that the reason the game flows the way it does because of having to be broken into two discs on the XBOX 360 is a silly idea. Both discs have all data pertaining to Squad members, Powers, Abilities, the underlying combat/physics mechanics, etc. The differences between the discs are the level/mission layouts, the textures for those areas, and that is probably about it..
The fact that recruitment is the way it is isn't a technical limitation imposed by being for a console, but because of a story design decision.

But the mission levels are not on both discs if I understand correctly. That's why they've divided the recruitment missions the way they have. So I think it actually is the two disc on console problem, at least part of it. However it is of course possible that they made that design choice as well.

It's a technical limitation, plain and simple. That's why you can't go back to any mission area like you could in ME1 aside from Eden Prime.
PC users have no such limitations, I guarantee you if this game were designed for the PC this wouldn't have happened.

[Spectre_Shepard]

the decision to break up recruitments like that probably was made later in development.



i really dont have a problem with it.

[Anduck]

As has been said, Forza 3 did it with an install disc. I would have thought that they could have a second 'optional' disc with side quests and non-essential squadmates & NPCs.



Maybe they'll patch it or someone will mod it in.

[Alraiis]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Ah. So it's the consolers fault. Figures that the PC gets shafted due to limitations on inherently inferior platforms. Again.

Come on. Isn't there anything we can say that would console you?

[Varenus Luckmann]

scyphozoa wrote...
i'm wondering if a mod team could make it so that all dossiers and loyalty quests are enabled immediately, so players can try a full, free-roaming experience as soon as they board the normandy. retain all the current pacing in terms how "recruit x squaddies to trigger horizon" etc..., i think it would make for a great experience.

Unfortunately, even though ME2 doesn't appear to be as hostile towards modding as ME1, I think such hopes may be in vain. I was just thinking along the same lines, a "Mass Effect 2 Restoration Project" would be great, but I wonder if it could interfere with importing saves into ME3 at a later date. 

Not necessarily, even if at all possible.

What I'd like to see is a patch to address the issues, but Bioware never goes back to fix issues in their games. They aren't adverse to adding new things or practicing the "Rule of Moar", but when it comes to fixing issues, they've always taken the easy way out of sticking strictly to bugs. No matter how bad, things are always "working as intended".

[Varenus Luckmann]

Alraiis wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Ah. So it's the consolers fault. Figures that the PC gets shafted due to limitations on inherently inferior platforms. Again.

Come on. Isn't there anything we can say that would console you?

*groan*

[Gaddmeister]

Anduck wrote...

As has been said, Forza 3 did it with an install disc. I would have thought that they could have a second 'optional' disc with side quests and non-essential squadmates & NPCs.

Maybe they'll patch it or someone will mod it in.

And as I replied, the Forza disc is optional, the second ME2 disc isn't. All 360 games must be playable without hdd installation (arcade console version).

[Unato]

we don't know what else was cut so it's hard to really understand what and why they did it. if you read the liara fan thread there was apparently an alternate opening different to the one we have now =p



i also imagine that voices are done rather early in the development, it's far easier to hire actors and have them speak hundreds and thousands of lines with the potential of not using them then to constantly rehire them whenever you make a design or story change

[Maria Caliban]

**delete me!**

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 février 2010 - 10:57 .

[FredegarKadere]

If the reason you can't go back to previous mission areas in ME2 is because of technical limitations then ME1 would have been no different than ME2. You can go back to Tuchanka, Ilium, Omega, and Citadel all you want in ME2. There is absolutely no point in going back to Grunt's Rite of Passage area, Okeer's lab, the Flotilla after leaving, the bombed out Geth starbase, Jacob's tropical paradise, Jack's bombed out..

The more I think about it, ME1 and ME2 are designed exactly the same. Tuchanka = Noveria, Ilium = Feros, Citadel = Citadel, Omega = all the uncharted worlds. You can not revisit Eden Prime, Ilos, Virmire, Peak 15, the warrens of Feros, or Liara's opener.

I agree that the way they decided to play it out is a letdown, but don't make up reasons to support that letdown.

PC <=> Console

[Ecael]

Pauravi wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
Ah. So it's the consolers fault. Figures that the PC gets shafted due to limitations on inherently inferior platforms. Again.

To be fair, the game was designed for the console. If it were designed for the PC, there's a good chance that the PC version would have kept the ability to recruit anyone you wanted at any time.

I don't think it was designed for one or the other, I think it was designed for both.
However, I don't believe that they would want to make the actual plot or content of the game different between them.  PCs often get different control setups and interfaces, but they wouldn't have just the PC version be able to get all the dossiers at once.  It would have been perfectly feasible to do so, and in fact it clearly was like that at some point, but it got changed.  It was clearly not any limitation of the PC that changed their plans, so the only logical conclusion is that it was changed to fit the 360, and then they changed the PC version so that the 360 players weren't missing out on official content.

It was definitely designed for the console. ME2 lacks keyboard shortcuts that ME1 had, and then there's this right before you load the galaxy map on the PC:



The XBox controls are still there on the PC, they're just hidden from view.

[Maria Caliban]

Borschtbeet wrote...

Probably because of a change in game design that came after the recorded dialogue was programmed into it.

It's not a huge deal.

BioWare has told us several times that recording VO is one of the last things they do, so this would have come late in development.

It is a significant deal. It represents an investment of resources that the player never has access to. If this is correct then late members like Tali and Legion have a large amount of conversation hidden away, and if this had been handled earlier in development, there would be more conversations for almost all of the party members.

Or to simplify it. These conversations we don’t hear take time and resources away from the conversations we do hear.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 février 2010 - 10:40 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Borschtbeet wrote...

Probably because of a change in game design that came after the recorded dialogue was programmed into it.

It's not a huge deal.

BioWare has told us several times that recording VO is one of the last things they do, so this would have come fairly late in development.

It is a significant deal. It represents an investment of resources that the player never has access to. If this is correct then late members like Tali and Legion have a large amount of conversation hidden away, and if this had been handled earlier in development, there'd be more conversations for almost all of the party members.

Wow. Maria Caliban and me, on the same team. Feel free to take pictures, people. This doesn't happen often.

[Habelo]

RandomGuy928 wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Ah. So it's the consolers fault. Figures that the PC gets shafted due to limitations on inherently inferior platforms. Again.

[Zhijn]

Games changes constantly under development, what goes where, what fits there and what not.

Legion didnt really fit in anywhere except Tali's loyalty mission. And visiting the counsil you can always just hold off to do, and visit the place after the suicide mission. Last no crew really talks on these recruit/loyalty missions anyway except whoevers mission it is.

Dont get me wrong i to wish certain members i would have been recruited early aswell, but Legion i dont mind. Having a geth with you and almost nada respond from anyone in the galaxy is rather.. Weird!.

Mabye ME3 will show off Legion in all his glory!. =P

[Ecael]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
Wow. Maria Caliban and me, on the same team. Feel free to take pictures, people. This doesn't happen often.

[Gaddmeister]

FredegarKadere wrote...

If the reason you can't go back to previous mission areas in ME2 is because of technical limitations then ME1 would have been no different than ME2. You can go back to Tuchanka, Ilium, Omega, and Citadel all you want in ME2. There is absolutely no point in going back to Grunt's Rite of Passage area, Okeer's lab, the Flotilla after leaving, the bombed out Geth starbase, Jacob's tropical paradise, Jack's bombed out..
The more I think about it, ME1 and ME2 are designed exactly the same. Tuchanka = Noveria, Ilium = Feros, Citadel = Citadel, Omega = all the uncharted worlds. You can not revisit Eden Prime, Ilos, Virmire, Peak 15, the warrens of Feros, or Liara's opener.
I agree that the way they decided to play it out is a letdown, but don't make up reasons to support that letdown.
PC Console

But what do we have on disc one? Well the beginning, Freedom's progress horizon, the recruitment missions of mordin, garrus, grunt and jack and the ending missions if I recall correctly. The rest of the missions are on disc 2. Maybe some loyalty missions overlap, I don't know. And of course surely many N7 missions. But the game didn't fit on one disc, so that's why they had to make two discs. And to make as few disc changes as possible it is actually quite probable that they had to divide the game into these parts.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Zhijn wrote...

Games changes constantly under development, what goes where, what fits there and what not.

Legion didnt really fit in anywhere except Tali's loyalty mission. And visiting the counsil you can always just hold off to do, and visit the place after the suicide mission. Last no crew really talks on these recruit/loyalty missions anyway except whoevers mission it is.

Dont get me wrong i to wish certain members i would have been recruited early aswell, but Legion i dont mind. Having a geth with you and almost nada respond from anyone in the galaxy is rather.. Weird!.

Mabye ME3 will show off Legion in all his glory!. =P

Really, you should check some of the vids posted in this thread. I agree that Legion may be wierd, but no wierder than a krogan on the presidium and he comments on bloody everything.

Legion: "Recommend subject Jack be disabled and transported aboard as cargo."

jtav wrote...
I suspect that the real reason is to keep from crashing the game if someone found a glitch that would allow them to recruit a squaddie earlier than they were "supposed" to.

Maybe you missed the point of the thread. The issue is that there are (to my surprise, actually) no such glitches or missing dialogue.

The only one that I don't think have been extensively tested is Samara. But let's be honest. Who really cares about Samara?

[Lvl20DM]

I don't think this had much to do with technical limitations. It was a design choice. If they gave us 10 dossiers it would be overwhelming for many gamers. Many of us might like it, but Bioware tends to organize their games in this manner. You usually get 3 or 4 things to do or places to go, and then an additional one pops up at some point. Then you get more places to go (or the game ends).

[Nautica773]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
The only one that I don't think have been extensively tested is Samara. But let's be honest. Who really cares about Samara?

I was with you till here. <_<

[TheAngryHeretic]

I love the fact taht people are looking behind the curtian to see how the magic works, but then being mad because the magic trick does not work the way you think it should work is just kind of silly.  Not really sure why you are upset at how the magic works.  You know how it works.  It's just like when a movie cuts sceens from the theather release and put them back in for the DVD release. 

I have watched a lot of developer diaries and this is a fairly common practice.  Record lots of different combinations and sort it out later.  Nothing new or strange about that.

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Through using the savegame editor, I decided to run some tests after hearing that Tali had dialogue in Mordin's recruitment mission. After running Mordin's and Garrus' recruitment missions with a number of characters that cannot possibly participate in them under normal circumstances (Legion, Tali, Thane, Samara) it turns out that.. well.. they all act as if being there was the most natural thing ever. Thane even have (a) comment(s) when you first meet Aria on Omega, and discuss Archangel.

As someone that has been annoyed by having to trudge through worthless recruitment missions to get to the "good stuff" on occassion, such as having to do ALL the initial recruitment missions before I can get Tali or Thane, I find this incredibly annoying. Especially annoying is the realization that Legion, the absolutely last squadmember you can recruit and just narrowly squeeze his loyalty mission in, if you want to avoid your entire crew turning into Reaper-Chow, have dialogue in virtually every mission, wheter he actually can participate in them under normal circumstances or not.

This leads me to believe that the decision to "cut up" the recruitment and create a tier-base story (Initial Mission, Recruitment phase, Intermediate Mission, Recruitmen Phase, End missions) came extremely late in development and just feel horribly, horribly arbitrary to me. Why not have each "step" in the story trigger after a set amount of missions, regardless wheter they are recruitment missions or how many you have recruited? Why "force" a showdown (unless you like Reaper-Chow) so soon after getting Legion?

Things like these really annoy me, because it feels so forced, so arbitrary and.. just for complete lack of a better word.. bad.

This will annoy me every time I play ME2 now. "Wow, I wonder what Thane would've said on this mission, if I could actually recruit him before it". "Would Legion have some input on this?".

Sometimes I really wonder what they were smoking.