121 réponses à ce sujet

[Nautica773]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rumor: Legion may originally have been your first companion.

That would have been neat. Almost a little KotOR 2, if I may say so.

[tonnactus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rumor: Legion may originally have been your first companion.

This would be a so much better opening...

[Ecael]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rumor: Legion may originally have been your first companion.

That explains all the pre-release hype about Legion that never materialized.

[Tsi Aileron]

Gaddmeister wrote...

Tsi Aileron wrote...

Gaddmeister wrote...

Anduck wrote...

As has been said, Forza 3 did it with an install disc. I would have thought that they could have a second 'optional' disc with side quests and non-essential squadmates & NPCs.

Maybe they'll patch it or someone will mod it in.

And as I replied, the Forza disc is optional, the second ME2 disc isn't. All 360 games must be playable without hdd installation (arcade console version).

It doesn't matter if the second disc for Forza 3 is optional, the fact is that it is possible. Oblivion and Final Fantasy XI would be a much better example of this feature anway, though. Installing the expansions to your hard drive and still playing the game using the original disc.

No, it does matter. This is the thing, 360 gamers must be able to play the game without hdd installation. If you have the 360 arcade system, you cannot use dlc (unless you have enough space on a memory unit of course). You cannot use the extra disc for Forza 3 for example, because it cannot run by itself. You need to have disc one in the drive at all times. With ME2, you need to be able to run the whole game off of each disc, because disc 2 isn't optional. To avoid having multiple disc changes during a playthrough they have divided much material (many missions) on separate discs and (probably) designed the story to fit this. That way you only need two disc changes for each playthrough, one after Horizon (if I remember correctly) and one when you go through the Omega 4 relay.

edit:
to clarify even more: ME2 disc 2 is not equal to dlc or expansion packs and cannot be treated as such.

You're completely missing the point. I'm not saying they should patch the game to include this feature. I am saying it is absolutely without a doubt possible for a game to be completely installed to the hard drive if the developer chooses.

Example: Final Fantasy XI is not playable at all, even if you don't have expansions, unless it is installed to your 360 hard drive.

Obviously they didn't choose to do this because it would have been a poor decision resulting in less game sales.

Modifié par Tsi Aileron, 22 février 2010 - 11:32 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Rumor: Legion may originally have been your first companion.

AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRGH!

/slitswrist

[Bartlebyfinch]

Lvl20DM wrote...

I don't think this had much to do with technical limitations. It was a design choice. If they gave us 10 dossiers it would be overwhelming for many gamers. Many of us might like it, but Bioware tends to organize their games in this manner. You usually get 3 or 4 things to do or places to go, and then an additional one pops up at some point. Then you get more places to go (or the game ends).

This is actually a pretty good point.  10 dossiers right off the bat would probably have been a bit too much choice for most gamers.  I would have been fine with that personally, but I have a feeling that the majority of game buyers wouldn't have been.  

I utterly loathe the whole PC vs. Console argument, because it is completely pointless.  However, I do agree that ME2 was probably released the way it was, in part, because of the limitations of the Xbox 360 (specifically, those without hard drives).  That particular limitation of consoles is one that we probably won't be dealing with for much longer since I don't imagine that we'll be seeing anymore HDD-less consoles in the future.  

In a nutshell, I think that Bioware did all of the voices for each mission before they decided on the mission order.  Why they chose to keep the "impossible to access" voice situations in the game is a mystery that I honestly don't have an answer for.  The simple answer is just "laziness" - maybe they were bundled in with other similar files already, and since disc space wasn't an issue, they didn't bother to cut them.  Or... maybe they did just leave them in as a sort of easter egg for PC modders to play with down the road.  

In a perfect world, ME2 would have been released to take advantage of a maxxed out gaming rig, would have consisted of 4-5 discs of installed content, and would have been a much longer, more in-depth and engaging game.  Of course, in a perfect world, every potential purchaser for the game would OWN such a rig.  That would be nice... but is just isn't a practical idea.

The simple truth is that game developers have to balance making a game (the "artistic" side of the business) with marketing the game.  Gamers love a good story and are passionate about content.  Game developers (at least some of them) feel the same way.  But Bioware, like any other company, is in the business of making money.  Releasing a game that would be unplayable on consoles would be passing up on a huge number of potential customers.  This isn't just a console vs. PC issue either.  Just look at MMO's on the PC.  One of the reasons that World of Warcraft (/cross self & make the sign of the evil eye) has such a dominant share of that market is because you can run in on a freaking Celeron.

Within the hardcore gamer community, it is very easy to forget that not everyone has (or has access to) a high-end PC.  I mentioned in my last post that gaming PCs cost a lot more than consoles.  This is true even if you have the know-how to build your own rig.  My current gaming PC cost me about $1200 to put together.  That's 4 times the cost of an X-box Elite.  For people who can't build their own PC's, that price discrepancy gets much greater.  Buying a Dell premade system with the same toys as my current system would have cost me over 3 grand.

Companies have to go where the market is.  That's one of the foundations of econimic theory.  Does that mean that we are going to have to put up with games that sacrifice quality for a wider market appeal?  Unfortunately... yes.  But screaming at console owners isn't going to fix the problem.

Right now this problem is particularly bad because the 360 has been out for so long.  As a new console, it was able to perform on par with all but the most extreme gaming PC's (with the exception of the lack of a hard drive on certain models).  However, that was the better part of a decade ago.  It is now an old system, and there is no doubt that the necessity of making games that will work on both it and a PC is a pretty big obstacle. 

If & when Microsoft ever gets around to releasing their next console, it will alleviate much of this... for a while.  The system is what it is, but is isn't the fault of console gamers anymore than it's the fault of PC owners.  And, unless you expect game companies ignore sales and income, it isn't their fault either.  Finger pointing and throwing blame around benefits no one.

[c0ns]

nevermind.....

Modifié par c0ns, 22 février 2010 - 11:36 .

[Zhijn]

Bartlebyfinch wrote...

Lvl20DM wrote...

I don't think this had much to do with technical limitations. It was a design choice. If they gave us 10 dossiers it would be overwhelming for many gamers. Many of us might like it, but Bioware tends to organize their games in this manner. You usually get 3 or 4 things to do or places to go, and then an additional one pops up at some point. Then you get more places to go (or the game ends).

This is actually a pretty good point.  10 dossiers right off the bat would probably have been a bit too much choice for most gamers.  I would have been fine with that personally, but I have a feeling that the majority of game buyers wouldn't have been.  

I utterly loathe the whole PC vs. Console argument, because it is completely pointless.  However, I do agree that ME2 was probably released the way it was, in part, because of the limitations of the Xbox 360 (specifically, those without hard drives).  That particular limitation of consoles is one that we probably won't be dealing with for much longer since I don't imagine that we'll be seeing anymore HDD-less consoles in the future.  

In a nutshell, I think that Bioware did all of the voices for each mission before they decided on the mission order.  Why they chose to keep the "impossible to access" voice situations in the game is a mystery that I honestly don't have an answer for.  The simple answer is just "laziness" - maybe they were bundled in with other similar files already, and since disc space wasn't an issue, they didn't bother to cut them.  Or... maybe they did just leave them in as a sort of easter egg for PC modders to play with down the road.  

In a perfect world, ME2 would have been released to take advantage of a maxxed out gaming rig, would have consisted of 4-5 discs of installed content, and would have been a much longer, more in-depth and engaging game.  Of course, in a perfect world, every potential purchaser for the game would OWN such a rig.  That would be nice... but is just isn't a practical idea.

The simple truth is that game developers have to balance making a game (the "artistic" side of the business) with marketing the game.  Gamers love a good story and are passionate about content.  Game developers (at least some of them) feel the same way.  But Bioware, like any other company, is in the business of making money.  Releasing a game that would be unplayable on consoles would be passing up on a huge number of potential customers.  This isn't just a console vs. PC issue either.  Just look at MMO's on the PC.  One of the reasons that World of Warcraft (/cross self & make the sign of the evil eye) has such a dominant share of that market is because you can run in on a freaking Celeron.

Within the hardcore gamer community, it is very easy to forget that not everyone has (or has access to) a high-end PC.  I mentioned in my last post that gaming PCs cost a lot more than consoles.  This is true even if you have the know-how to build your own rig.  My current gaming PC cost me about $1200 to put together.  That's 4 times the cost of an X-box Elite.  For people who can't build their own PC's, that price discrepancy gets much greater.  Buying a Dell premade system with the same toys as my current system would have cost me over 3 grand.

Companies have to go where the market is.  That's one of the foundations of econimic theory.  Does that mean that we are going to have to put up with games that sacrifice quality for a wider market appeal?  Unfortunately... yes.  But screaming at console owners isn't going to fix the problem.

Right now this problem is particularly bad because the 360 has been out for so long.  As a new console, it was able to perform on par with all but the most extreme gaming PC's (with the exception of the lack of a hard drive on certain models).  However, that was the better part of a decade ago.  It is now an old system, and there is no doubt that the necessity of making games that will work on both it and a PC is a pretty big obstacle. 

If & when Microsoft ever gets around to releasing their next console, it will alleviate much of this... for a while.  The system is what it is, but is isn't the fault of console gamers anymore than it's the fault of PC owners.  And, unless you expect game companies ignore sales and income, it isn't their fault either.  Finger pointing and throwing blame around benefits no one.

Very well said, and written. Spot on.

[Gaddmeister]

Tsi Aileron wrote...

You're completely missing the point. I'm not saying they should patch the game to include this feature. I am saying it is absolutely without a doubt possible for a game to be completely installed to the hard drive if the developer chooses.

Example: Final Fantasy XI is not playable at all, even if you don't have expansions, unless it is installed to your 360 hard drive.

Of course it is possible to technically require installation, but then you would exclude the Arcade owners from playing the game, something I don't see why EA would do.

I have to admit that I didn't know of any 360 game that required installation (FFXI) but I doubt there are many.

edit: just now saw your edit. :happy: Yes, as long as there are xbox owners without hdd (which will be for the whole lifespan of the 360 I guess) this is what we will have to put up with.

Modifié par Gaddmeister, 22 février 2010 - 11:43 .

[jstne]

I don't understand why he singles out consoles and not the 360. But he's right tbh.



I like the 360, don't get me wrong. I'm not a fanboy. (and if you don't believe me I'll show you my $300 Amazon receipt from Friday for an Elite I bought to replace my dying out of warranty 360)



But the DVD format on the 360 really does hold back some (or many) games. A recent example of data troubles: http://kotaku.com/54...sc-restrictions

I'm sure there are probably many more games with the same troubles but developers just didn't bring it out in the open.



It's probably why games are so short this generation and the longer ones are mostly either sandbox games with a high number of low-detail assets, multi-disc games, or not on 360.



As a PS3 owner it kinda bothers me how multiplats get equally shafted when most of them don't even use 10GB of the 25GB (potentially 50GB if they wanted to go all out) Blu-ray. A console is holding back games. Not plural. But this same console also has many quality games and I love it regardless, but I won't deny the truth.

[Gaddmeister]

jstne wrote...

As a PS3 owner it kinda bothers me how multiplats get equally shafted when most of them don't even use 10GB of the 25GB (potentially 50GB if they wanted to go all out) Blu-ray. A console is holding back games. Not plural. But this same console also has many quality games and I love it regardless, but I won't deny the truth.

I must agree with this. And I am an Xbox 360 owner and practically play all games on it. But MS really should have gone with the HDDVD drive instead, but it's obviously too late for that now. And of course from an financial point of view they made the right (cheap) decision, but from an artistic point of view for developers and for players, they made the wrong one.

Still, we don't know exactly how Bioware would have designed the game if this limit wasn't there, even though there definitely is a probability that it had an impact. Only Bioware knows for sure what effect it had.

And ME2 is still a fantastic game, so I won't dwell on this any longer.

Modifié par Gaddmeister, 23 février 2010 - 12:11 .

[Gill Kaiser]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

BeyondFX wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
Alright, I'm going to go ahead here and ask what the hell you people are on about. I didn't swap my disks a single time throughout the entire game.
Regardless, I feel it would've been a lot more consistent if you were given a number of dossiers at the start, then based on the number of missions you'd finished, new dossiers would've unlocked. After doing a set number of missions, the next step in the storyline would've unlocked, and so on.

360 players need to swap after horizon

Ah. So it's the consolers fault. Figures that the PC gets shafted due to limitations on inherently inferior platforms. Again.

My thoughts exactly. I have a 360 as well, and it's good for certain genres, but man I hate it when this **** happens.

[Gill Kaiser]

Nautica773 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rumor: Legion may originally have been your first companion.

That would have been neat. Almost a little KotOR 2, if I may say so.

I call bull**** regarding that glorified fanfic.

[erilben]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rumor: Legion may originally have been your first companion.

That would have been neat. Almost a little KotOR 2, if I may say so.

I call bull**** regarding that glorified fanfic.

Yeah. The guy that wrote Legion says it isn't true.

[TheLostGenius]

EA_BiowareAccount wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Through using the savegame editor, I decided to run some tests after hearing that Tali had dialogue in Mordin's recruitment mission. After running Mordin's and Garrus' recruitment missions with a number of characters that cannot possibly participate in them under normal circumstances (Legion, Tali, Thane, Samara) it turns out that.. well.. they all act as if being there was the most natural thing ever. Thane even have (a) comment(s) when you first meet Aria on Omega, and discuss Archangel.

As someone that has been annoyed by having to trudge through worthless recruitment missions to get to the "good stuff" on occassion, such as having to do ALL the initial recruitment missions before I can get Tali or Thane, I find this incredibly annoying. Especially annoying is the realization that Legion, the absolutely last squadmember you can recruit and just narrowly squeeze his loyalty mission in, if you want to avoid your entire crew turning into Reaper-Chow, have dialogue in virtually every mission, wheter he actually can participate in them under normal circumstances or not.

This leads me to believe that the decision to "cut up" the recruitment and create a tier-base story (Initial Mission, Recruitment phase, Intermediate Mission, Recruitmen Phase, End missions) came extremely late in development and just feel horribly, horribly arbitrary to me. Why not have each "step" in the story trigger after a set amount of missions, regardless wheter they are recruitment missions or how many you have recruited? Why "force" a showdown (unless you like Reaper-Chow) so soon after getting Legion?

Things like these really annoy me, because it feels so forced, so arbitrary and.. just for complete lack of a better word.. bad.

This will annoy me every time I play ME2 now. "Wow, I wonder what Thane would've said on this mission, if I could actually recruit him before it". "Would Legion have some input on this?".

Sometimes I really wonder what they were smoking. 

Its like complaining that a movie didnt include all the scenes when it came out, happens all the time!  Ever seen deleted scenes on a dvd?  I have, no big deal.

I've been deleted scenes in a movie. They stayed deleted...lol!!

[Jeremy Winston]

Chances are that the missions, themselves, include the dialog for each character, and the extra dialog was just left in. Why mess with something that works. The dialog will be unused since the character that makes it can't be there.



Perhaps we can all cross our fingers and they'll provide a DLC that let's us pick a mission to run and let us choose our squad mates from the complete list. No money, experience, etc... but a chance to play the different missions.



I know there are some I'd like to try different ways, but not enough to replay the entire game to get to it.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Dockerr wrote...
wow, such hatred over such a small thing. The story is written like it is written. True: there may not be any reason to split up the dossiers other than disk swapping, but if you want to hear what characters say at different locations, you already have the ability to cheat and see what happens. Stop complaining.

But that's just not true. The story was obviously not only written differently, but implemented differently, and then changed not because of something that would make it better, but because of real-life limitations.

As for cheating, yes, that is entirely possible. But then you're cheating. Numerous problems crop up and the storyline isn't consistent anymore - which is the problem to begin with. I add Thane to my crew, some lizard pops up on my ship, and thanks me for a mission I've never done.

Pass.

I'd rather see a patch to rectify the issue, really.

Dockerr wrote...
However, i agree that its a shame that you get legion so late, he's really awesome. I read that at one point BW planned to put a tutorial mission in between the SR1 being destroyed and shep's reconstruction where you played as Legion and met Liara. This is unconfirmed though, and largely irrelevant as it got cut.

Man, that's a pity. That'd be awesome. I would've also liked to see more of what they talked about earlier in development, on how Legion was supposedly stalking Shepard. It is my firm belief that Legion was intended to come into play much earlier or essentially have a recruitment mission like all the others, but alas, I fear he is destined to remain a paranthesis.

If it weren't for the fact you're so condescending all the time and think yourself so superior, I would seriously respect you. As things are though, I agree with you on almost every point I've seen you make, and I totally agree with your thoughts on Legion. He's supposed to stalking Shepard through the entire game, but you don't even know that until after his recruitment, which really, really makes this game need an "Awakenings"-type expansion, but where it's integrated into the game, not separately from the game. 

I would love a tutorial on Legion/Liara, a couple of quests dealing with the old squad, the disabling of forced-order dossiers after the first playthrough. But what we absolutely NEED in an expansion is one thing.
Legion. Earlier

[The Angry One]

The fact that Legion has no dialog on Horizon while Tali does indicates that the whole Legion at the beginning stuff from that post is false. Legion was clearly never intended to be in the first half of the game.

[dan107]

erilben wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rumor: Legion may originally have been your first companion.

That would have been neat. Almost a little KotOR 2, if I may say so.

I call bull**** regarding that glorified fanfic.

Yeah. The guy that wrote Legion says it isn't true.

I don't know. It sure would make sense given that the very first ME2 trailer that we got had Legion in it.

But IMO Bio definitely did the right thing cutting that part from the beginning. It really does make absolutely NO sense to open ME2 as a geth shooting humans. Even the part where you played Joker did not warrant breaking the fact that this is Shepard's story. Playing as Legion would've been ridiculous.

Plus on top of that his "No data available" was IMO his absolute best line, and one of the more memorable lines of the game. Those 3 words did more to humanize him and make him relatable than all of the rest of his dialogue. Pretty interesting if that line was just a byproduct of content cuts.

Modifié par dan107, 23 février 2010 - 12:56 .

[Ulicus]

I'm by no means the norm among console gamers, I suppose... but I'd have accepted lots of disc swapping if it meant I could recruit the team in any order.

[guise709]

Yea I hate it when stuff like this happens but theres not much the community can do about it without mod kits and toolsets. I understand Bioware/EA is just following the money but it disappoints me when stuff like this happens. I hope when ME3 comes out they release a toolset alongside with it like they did with Dragon Age.