71 réponses à ce sujet

[hanoverfist90]

So far I've killed him in three play throughs and would gladly kill him in a fourth.

[Reaverwind]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Do I feel bad about killing him? Nope not in all the playthroughs I have done so far. Dies every time. Is he a tragic man? Yep? Was he at one time a hero? Maybe that too. But 'here and now' he's a menace and a bigger threat than the Orlesians to Ferelden. As the Queen of Hearts would say

OFF with his HEAD!!

ROFL

[Fishy]

Feeling Bad?

He did a lot more than just betray the king .. His action caused so much destrusvtion and death in ferelden.I don't feel sorry when i chop his head off.Just like he did not feel any remorse about the whole warden faction/Duncan/King/Eamon/Cousland/Magi circle /Lothering killed.. destroyed and betrayed.

When my warden chopped his head off ... I felt nothing!! It's like i was cutting through  a darkspawn.
He will be forgotten faster than he was ever know.He's now just a criminal

They should erase all of his good past action and be buried in darkspawn poop.

[Cutlass Jack]

Addai67 wrote...

I'd rather give him an inglorious death, and Vaughn can't die enough times for my liking. Maybe you have to be a female CE.

My Bride beheading Vaughn was one of the crowning moments of Dragon Age to me. Vaughn deserved to die so badly for what he did to the elves that I killed him again as my Human Male Noble. Just because he was an arse.


Meanwhile Loghain deserved to die for what he did. I can feel sorrow for how fall he fell, but there are some things you never do, and he did most of them for all the wrong reasons. I've never spared him, and I can't imagine the playthrough where I ever would consider sparing him.

But yes, once upon a time he was a great guy. Which is what makes his tale so tragic.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 23 février 2010 - 07:13 .

[errant_knight]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I'd rather give him an inglorious death, and Vaughn can't die enough times for my liking. Maybe you have to be a female CE.

My Bride beheading Vaughn was one of the crowning moments of Dragon Age to me. Vaughn deserved to die so badly for what he did to the elves that I killed him again as my Human Male Noble. Just because he was an arse.


Meanwhile Loghain deserved to die for what he did. I can feel sorrow for how fall he fell, but there are some things you never do, and he did most of them for all the wrong reasons. I've never spared him, and I can't imagine the playthrough where I ever would consider sparing him.

But yes, once upon a time he was a great guy. Which is what makes his tale so tragic.

It is indeed tragic, I agree. Y'know, there are a few recurring themes in DA, but the corrupting power of hate comes up more than most.

[Zanilla]

I didn't feel sorry for Loghain. Yet I agree, he certainly is a tragic figure. But I felt good killing him, especially because I knew how much it would satisfy Alistair. I can't imagine letting im go in other play throughs, I don't know, it just doesn't feel "right". I was only struggling with the question who should execute him as I didn't want Alistair to be king (but remain my love ). It took me hell of a lot of time to find out that I need to kill him in order to decide who shall be king, so Loghain died more often than he probably expected

[Warden24]

I only spared him once, and it subsequently crashed my game, and corrupted all my saves on the character. A very disturbing coincidence to be sure...anyways...



The reason that my characters always kills him is because its personal.



After reading the books, its so much easier to understand the motivations of Loghain, its almost sickening. Its my belief that he never betrayed Ferelden, he always put his countries best interests above all else. That fateful moment at Ostagar, we as the player only see Loghain giving the order to retreat, and no further explanation of his actions, leading us to believe he betrayed the king and the Grey Wardens.



However, looking at it from his POV, his actions are somewhat justified. He was waiting outside of sight from the main army, waiting for the signal to charge and flank the enemy. He was already upset that Cailan wanted to be on the front lines, and now his well placed mistrust of Grey Wardens was being stretched to the limit by allowing them to light the beacon. When the signal finally comes, it was Loghain's belief that the battle was already lost. He wasn't thinking about leaving the king, leaving the army, betrayal, the throne, he was thinking about saving the army to stop what he perceived be a threat from the borders.



With the army destroyed, Orlais could very well march right into the heart of Ferelden and impose whatever order they thought necessary. The bannsmen would not be able to muster a force to defeat them, and everything Maric and he fought for, for years I might add, would be completely washed away. It was at that very moment that Loghain ordered the retreat, to ensure the survival of his country.



Was it right? Of course not. Poisoning the Arl, aligning with Uldred, allowing slavery, trusting Howe, these are all heinous acts carried out by a man gripped in paranoia(not craziness) that Orlais was attempting to reverse his previous actions, and he would rather die than to see the security of his countries freedom snuffed out by the empire.



With all that said and done, I admire Loghain as a person, a character. A tragic human being. A man so far gone in his own machinations that he cannot see the true threat about to swallow Ferelden whole.



However, he made it personal with all my characters. As much as they respected him, I could not offer him redemption, That's the Maker's job.



My job is to get him there.

[Sabriana]

I don't feel bad, because my PC never killed Loghain.

Alistair did once, in my mage PC play-through, and in subsequent play-throughs Loghain lived and he could redeem himself by killing the archdemon.

True, my PCs couldn't know about the 'the one who kills the archdemon dies with it', but they did know that Loghain would have to go into the Deep Roads after 3 years. In the meantime, they figured, he could be sent to Orlais and train the Orlaisian Wardens. As Sten would say "Fitting."

I know the epilogue says different if he lives because of the DR, but my PCs couldn't know that either, could they? Aside from that, I, personally have never seen that epilogue, because Loghain  kills the archdemon.

My 'let Loghain live' PCs are all HNF, by the way, and I will go with the character creator's statement that Loghain had nothing to do with the massacre of House Cousland. After the nobles meeting in Denerim (the first one, where Teagan calls Loghain's withdrawal 'fortunate' or something like that), Loghain realized he needed all the allies he could get, and Howe was one of them. I have no doubt that the slimer knew exactly how to boot-lick his way upward, and it certainly helped him that the only known living witness to the Cousland massacre is also a Grey Warden. I doubt that Loghain, in his paranoia, would take her word over Howe's.

My HNs would know history, Aldous would see to that. They know that the possibility that Ferelden would still be squirming under the boot-heel of the chevaliers and the Orlesian crown, if not for Loghain, is quite high. It was only 30 years past, and the Couslands fought with the Rebels, as the Origin points out.

For all he did for Ferelden, and for all he suffered, he deserves to die for the country he loved so much that it ruined him in the end. Because he couldn't see straight anymore after his epic paranoia set in. In his mind, he was keeping the oath he made to Maric, I have no doubt. Unfortunately, when the dice was cast, he could do nothing but roll with the repercussions, and he never saw how things got worse and worse. Even in the end he couldn't see that his decisions almost ruined the entire country.

He does acknowledge his failings to the PC before the final blow to the archdemon, and he does regret what he did.

[Xandurpein]

I have to say that reading "The Stolen Throne" didn't really change my opinion on Loghain a lot, as it pretty much confirms what I understood from the game. I know that some people feel that there is "evidence" in the game that Loghain is a frothing madman, and that David Gaider is somehow retconning Loghan in the books, but I thought it all fits. There is evidence of a dark streak in Loghain in the books too, just as there is evidence of his nobler sides in the game.



Whether I choose to let Loghain live or not, depends on what character I'm roleplaying, but my choices haven't really been affected by reading the books.

[Sabriana]

True Xandurpein, it does depend on the PC. I haven't played a CE yet, and I can see her being less than pleased with Loghain selling her people off to Tevinter.

I'm not sure about the dalish elves, and how they would see it.

I'm even less sure about the dwarfs, because they seem to have a completely different take on rulers and society on the whole.

[Nymphadora1]

bluebullets wrote...

I am on page 200 of the stolen throne, and Loghain seems like a stand-up guy.

He helps when he does not need to, and I understand his reasoning behind his decisions now.. I do not believe Anora was in danger, either.

Loghains betrayal was EXTREMELY uncharacteristic, he has gone into lost battles before, and it is not like him to abandon one, especially one he is loyal o.

Anybody else feel bad about killing him in all 4 playthroughs?

 Nope I look forward to it almost as much as I did killing that weassel Howe, especially as my female human rogue.

[Xandurpein]

Sabriana wrote...

True Xandurpein, it does depend on the PC. I haven't played a CE yet, and I can see her being less than pleased with Loghain selling her people off to Tevinter.
I'm not sure about the dalish elves, and how they would see it.
I'm even less sure about the dwarfs, because they seem to have a completely different take on rulers and society on the whole.

I agree. I almost always kill Loghain when I play elf. I haven't played a dwarf that far so I'm not sure how I would react, as I'm not sure about how a dwarf would feel either. I am most likely to save Loghain when I play a "good" human noble, as I reason that such a character would have most respect for what Loghain have done in the past and most likely to see the noble qualities in him.

[Reaverwind]

Xandurpein wrote...

I have to say that reading "The Stolen Throne" didn't really change my opinion on Loghain a lot, as it pretty much confirms what I understood from the game. I know that some people feel that there is "evidence" in the game that Loghain is a frothing madman, and that David Gaider is somehow retconning Loghan in the books, but I thought it all fits. There is evidence of a dark streak in Loghain in the books too, just as there is evidence of his nobler sides in the game.

Yup, exactly. He's not a black & white character, at all. He didn't "fall" - he evolved.

[nos_astra]

I'm waiting for the books to arrive but I've read enough about them to believe that I will enjoy getting to know Loghain a bit but it won't affect my landsmeet decisions. I still can't imagine how any of my human nobles could spare him. His former hero status doesn't help in the slightest when considering that after learning what Howe did to my family (slaughtering even the child and the guests) he obviously stripped my family of land and titles and rewarded Howe with it. I'll never go over that. If that's his way of disapproving with what Howe has done... OFF with his head.

My CE and DE probably won't spare him either at least for selling their people.

I could imagine a mage or a dwarf sparing him but that would be depending on the level of friendship they have with Alistair. The moment it becomes clear it'll be either Alistair or Loghain a friend (or a lover) of Alistair is most likely to choose the loyal bastard prince who tried to help me fix what Loghain helped screw up any time.

Modifié par klarabella, 23 février 2010 - 12:21 .

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...
His former hero status doesn't help in the slightest when considering that after learning what Howe did to my family (slaughtering even the child and the guests) he obviously stripped my family of land and titles and rewarded Howe with it.

Well... I can understand your point of view, except of course that technically he didn't really strip your family of it's land and title, rather he awarded them to Howe to cement an alliance of convenience, on the assumption that your familywas already dead to the last man/woman. So there was really noone left to strip of anything, at least as far he knew at the time he did it.

I'm not saying you aren't right in feeling as you do, I merely choose to look at it differently.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 23 février 2010 - 02:21 .

[Sabriana]

They are not stripped, because the noble-woman, whose brother the PC found in the dungeon, tells my PC that she will aid her in regaining control of her Teyrnie. So in the eyes of the nobility, my PC is the Teyrna of Highever, until Fergus puts his appearance in.

[Barbarossa2010]

Loghain is a tough character to nail down due to his near-perfectly crafted duality. I have executed him on two playthroughs and spared him on one.

Loghain is certainly flawed, paranoid to the point of mania, foolishly ignorant of the danger of the Blight because of it, and took actions that at first glance seem absolutely irredeemable. There are reasons and mitigating circumstances that reinforce his view though and appear to grant him (in his own mind) the necessary self-righteousness to take drastic actions to preserve something he believes in. I do not justify these by any means, but merely state that he probably found a reasonable basis to act as he did (in his own mind).

When he willingly concedes after you defeat him at the Landsmeet, he tells you that "there is a strength in you he has not seen since Maric." Loghain means this, he gains nothing from it. He respects something other than himself, namely strength and commanding leadership. As he kneels before you awaiting his judgement, he tells you that he dies content, knowing that Ferelden's security is in your hands. He loves his nation, granted to the point of stupidity, but he does love something other than himself (which sets him clearly apart from that SOB Howe).

Any man/woman who can believe and love something higher or beyond themselves, can be found worthy of redemption in my view. Of course, justice must also be served, and how each are granted is the rub.

Loghain is an honorable man at his core. He is flawed certainly, (and yes, even dangerously so), but I see him as honorable in his intent. There was a time when he was a hero and a patriot. Battle, conflict and constant struggle change people, many times for the worse. Not making a judgement here, just stating a fact.

My first two Wardens reluctantly executed Loghain, as they wished for better options to grant him redemption and properly satsify justice. I pretended in my mind that my Wardens granted Loghain a soldier's death that would be befitting of a heroic field general who had stupidly fallen into the trap of politics and paranoia.

My third Warden spared Loghain and lost Alistair (unfortunatley). He intened to allow him to find his redemption by killing the Archdemon, as this Warden believed Morrigan was up to no good with her Ritual, due to a dangerous ambiguty taken to the absurd. However, at the Gates of Denerim, my Warden reflected on the notion that Riordan had given him the precedent that the killing blow should fall to the senior Warden if it came down to it. Time in the Taint aside, it seemed the soldierly thing. Loghain being the "junior" Warden would defend the Gate and live.

After my Warden fell with the Archdemon, Loghain would spend the time he had remaining to serve justice by fighting the remnants of the Blight, and rebuilding and recruiting the very Order he sought to destroy. His legend would serve this task very well. Upon completion, he would find his redemption (and re-find his honor) in the Deep Roads killing as many Darkspawn as he could before meeting the Maker.

I'm still not sure which is the best end for Loghain, or even the "right" way of viewing him, but yes, I suppose my Wardens felt "bad" in executing him.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 23 février 2010 - 04:49 .

[Loerwyn]

I've almost finished The Stolen Throne (~50 pages to go), and I can't make up my mind as to what I think of him.

In the book he's very... Reluctant, I think, at first but does warm up to the task at hand (i.e. commanding troops and protecting Maric) once he realises that he's very good at it. Judging by his actions in the book and some of the things he says at Ostagar, I would think that he feels he would be doing Maric's memory/actions good by retreating from the fight and by taking charge of Ferelden. However, once it's clear that it is a Blight I think he slowly starts to fall apart and realise just how big a mistake he's made.



He's a good commander, but he's very short sighted and doesn't have a true sense of honor or duty. He blames Maric for his father's death (in a way it's true, but at the same time it's not), he pursues Rowan despite her betrothal to Maric and as soon as Orlesians enter the equation he becomes blind with hatred.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
Loghain is certainly flawed, paranoid to the point of mania, foolishly ignorant of the danger of the Blight because of it, and took actions that at first glance seem absolutely irredeemable. 

I agree with most of your post, except this. Alloow me to explain.

Paranoia, as a psychological disorder, means seeing threats where they do not exist and have no reason to exist. A paranoid person to the point of mania would be afraid of random people on the streets, because he suspects they are up to something. Was Loghain completely wrong in suspecting Orlais of planing something?
I shall argue this point from a purely political / strategic point of view, and then from a personal point of view.

Politically speaking, when you are the head of a nation, especially one that is young and weak, being suspcisious is a natural and necessary state of mind. I nfact, one cannot truly play politics without havign a cynical state of mind, with varying degrees.
We know that Orlais is a superpower, while Ferelden is a backward nation compared to it. Coupled with the history between these two nations, it is sensible and rational to prepare for the worst, namely a reconquest of Ferelden. 
So here we come to the military intervention that Orlais was planing. No nation invites foreign troops in its soil without thinking a million time about it, especially not troops that have been kicked out only a few decades ago. We have to take many things into consideration:
- Orlais occupied Ferelden for a century. Got kicked out a few decades before. There is no reaon to believe that Orlais is not willing to regain Ferelden and avenge their humiliation. Orlais is an Empire, with imperialist dedencies.
- Orlais and Ferelden are not allies, nor are they part of a collective security organisation or coalition that can effectively organise and mediate the intervention. Like I said, countries thing many times before inviting foreign troops for a reason. It might infringe on their sovereignity. In today's world, NATO can organise such an intervention, while making sure that no country loses its sovereignity in the process.
- Orlais is vastly more powerful then Ferelden. Coupled with the point stated above, it would be folly for a weak nation to invite Orlais to help it militarily, without expecting a loss of sovereignity. For a real world example, the USSR, by liberating Eastern Europe from German control, ended up conquering them in turn. Completely natural and unavoidable even.
- All points considered, it would be impossible to guarantee that Orlesian forces would leave Ferelden after the blight is defeated. There is no security organisation or coalition to make sure of this. There is no higher power that can force Orlais to leave. Ferelden would truly beat the mercy of Orlais. What would Orlais do cannot be predicted perfectly. But a country has to avoid being at the mercy of another nation, epecially one like Orlais.

All these points considered, I do not believe that Loghain's refusal to alow Orlesian forces in to be an act of paranoia. But of political prudence. furthermore, his instincts proved slightly correct. Orlais was planing to re-control Ferelden, but not through an invasion, but through marriage. Celene I, known for being a political mastermind, would have very easily controlled and manipulated Cailan, who in turn was easily manipulated by Anora who isn't even close of being comaprable with Celene.
Celene's marriage to Cailan would have made sure that Ferelden, a backward and poor nation, would have been aborbed by the much more powerful, richer and more populated Orlais.
The Orlesian military intervention would have promoted that goal. Celene's marriage would have been more acceptable if it was Orlais who saved Ferelden from the blight.
So Loghain wasn't far from the truth.

From a personal point of view, we have to see that Loghain has evey reason to suspect the Orlesians and even hate them. He was robbed of his childhood by their hands. Imagine, God forbids, that you as a child have to watch your own mother being raped in front of your eyes by invaders. Imagine losing your family, your dog (and we know how important they are to Ferelden culture) and seeing people you don't even know get slaughtered for no reason.
If you really think about all this and what it could do to a man, can you real say that Loghain's suspcision of Orlais is unfounded and a product of madness?
I think not. 

Now you may say, and you would be right, that the Blight is more dangerous than Orlais. 
Loghain didn't know it was a bliught and he was mistaken. But is his ignorance his own doing? I do not think so.

Keep in mind that the last blight was 400 years ago and that many people look at the Wardens as tales of myths and legends. Soemone like Loghain, who is cynical, would be hardpressed to believe in such tales.

Second. Does anyone actually know why the Wardens are necessary and only they can defeat the Blight?
No one actually knows why and how that is the case. Because the Wardens never reveal what they are (tainted).
Nobody actually knows why  and how wardens know when a blight is coming and that only they can kill the archdemon. 
In fact, throughout the whole game, I questioned this myself. Why are the Wardens the only people who can defeat the blight? We onl found out for sure at the end.

So can you blame Loghain for not knowing and not believing the stories that Cailan blindly accepts?
I personally do not. 
He was ignorant, there is no doubt. But it is an ignorance he couldn't be responsable for. It is the secretive ways of the Wardens that are responsable. And I am not saying it's a mistake. The WArden secret must remain a secret if the order is to survive.
Loghain made a mistake. But he did not commit an error. 

Overall, I think Loghain did not act. Rather, he reacted. He reacted to the perceptions of threat coming from Orlais tht are not totally unfounded and at the core, are right. He reacted to Cailan's blindess and foolishness. He reacted to Maric's absence. He reacted in front of a losing battle that he did not want to fight. He reacted to the banns losing common sense and declaring civil war. He reacted against the Wardens, believign them to be in cahoots with Orlais.
And that's why I think Loghain is first and foremost, a victim of circumstances. He made them wrose, perhaps. But it was almost inevitable that he would. In that sense, he is truly a tragic figure in the ancient Greek meaning of the word. A victim of fate.

I do not think he was mad. I do no think he was paranoid, as in pshycologically disordered. I think he is suspicious and cynical. A product of Orlesian atrocities that were committed against him, his family and his people.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 février 2010 - 05:49 .

[soignee]

^the above post is far more awesome then I could ever write, and explains Loghain's motives well. 10/10, KnightofPhoenix



I think everyone forgets what it's like for previously occupied countries, and how long the scars still linger.



Have a real life example: World War 2 is over and history, but every village, town and city here in England have some kind of statue/ memorial, and 11/11 is held yearly still, and respects are paid. No one forgets, and it still lingers in generations very deeply. Now, that was was nearly 65 years ago, and still there are reminders -very visual reminders- everywhere of what that perticular war cost.



Even though Dragon Age is just a computer game -and a fantasy RPG at that- it's not hard to see the humanity of where the stories come from. I read some comments here at how flippant people are towards certain acts -killing a child, repercussions of war, etc- and I wonder if we're all part of some Milgram's experiment I don't know about >.>;

[Addai]

Xandurpein wrote...

klarabella wrote...
His former hero status doesn't help in the slightest when considering that after learning what Howe did to my family (slaughtering even the child and the guests) he obviously stripped my family of land and titles and rewarded Howe with it.

Well... I can understand your point of view, except of course that technically he didn't really strip your family of it's land and title, rather he awarded them to Howe to cement an alliance of convenience, on the assumption that your familywas already dead to the last man/woman. So there was really noone left to strip of anything, at least as far he knew at the time he did it.

I'm not saying you aren't right in feeling as you do, I merely choose to look at it differently.

That excuse falls by the wayside the moment he sees you standing there with Eamon, and yet he still introduces Howe as the Teyrn of Highever to your face.  And that's when his fate is pretty much sealed in my HN games.

[Sabriana]

Well Addai, to Loghain your PC has become a foreigner somehow. Wardens = = Orlais.

The nobles don't see it that way, to them the PC is still the Teyrna of Highever (until Fergus shows up).

[sylvanaerie]

Sabriana wrote...

Well Addai, to Loghain your PC has become a foreigner somehow. Wardens = = Orlais.
The nobles don't see it that way, to them the PC is still the Teyrna of Highever (until Fergus shows up).

Yea i don't get that, you quite obviously AREN'T Orlesian but he keeps calling you that.  I know the Wardens from Orlais had been requested by Cailan to come but if you talk to Loghain prior to the joining he knows where you come from and that you aren't a warden yet.  I found it really weird and kind of annoying

[Aynslie]

hmm I can't bring myself TO spare Loghain. Every time Riordian comes out with that stupid plan to turn him into a Gray Warden I can't help but pick the "you gotta be kidding" type options. Considering his joining doesn't make it now 4 Gray Wardens fighting the Archdemon I don't see the point. I understand that it was absolutely paranoia on his part that caused him to believe that the Orlesians were the real threat, but that paranoia killed an entire army of men who were following his and the Kings orders. He saved the army under his command but left hundreds of soldiers who looked up to him and relied on him to die. I don't care if he was some how able to save Andraste in any of the books the man deserves a traitors death. That and he abandoned my GW at that battle also so it gets a little personal too lol.

[Sabriana]

Agreed, it was weird. Even his minions call the PC a foreigner (the emissary at Orzammar). I can only guess that with his epic paranoia, the warden automatically becomes loyal to Orlais after the joining in his disturbed mind.



However at that point (landsmeet called) Loghain knows he's grasping at straws, and any/everything to discredit the GW is something he lashes on to, imo. Howe is a pretender and a mass murderer, and his alliance with him could very well backfire in the worst possible way. So he has to keep up the pretense.

The Arl of Redcliffe is up and kicking, an heir to the throne with Theirin blood has been found, the Wardens are still alive despite an assassination attempt and bounty hunters, and Orzammar, the tower, and the dalish have thrown their lot in with the GWs.

All in all, a very bad situation to be in. It sucks to be Loghain at that point in time.