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Anybody else feel bad about killing Loghain? Stolen throne


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#51
Sandtigress

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sylvanaerie wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Well Addai, to Loghain your PC has become a foreigner somehow. Wardens = = Orlais.
The nobles don't see it that way, to them the PC is still the Teyrna of Highever (until Fergus shows up).



Yea i don't get that, you quite obviously AREN'T Orlesian but he keeps calling you that.  I know the Wardens from Orlais had been requested by Cailan to come but if you talk to Loghain prior to the joining he knows where you come from and that you aren't a warden yet.  I found it really weird and kind of annoying


I think it has to do with the fact that until 25 years ago, there were no Wardens in Ferelden.  The people who came to rebuild the Wardens were all Orlesians, or at least from Orlais.  I suppose, in that sense, in Loghain's mind its like all Wardens suddenly belong to a force outside Ferelden, and one that he can equate with the Orlesians.  I think the man has become a little irrational about the subject by that point, especially since Cailan was so eager to bring the Orlesians and their Wardens into the country.

#52
CalJones

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I thought the soldier outside Orzammer was inferring the Warden was a foreigner to the dwarves (which he and his men are too - but he can't understand why the dwarves would let the Warden in when they wouldn't let him in).



Yes, it does suck to be Loghain at that point. I do feel a bit sorry for him but then, if you'd selected the "let's work together and end the Blight" conversation option when you arrived in Denerim, he ignores it. So not much else you can do but bring him down, at that point. I still save him though - I think the reason a lot of people always kill him is because they don't want to give up Alistair. Personally I'm not a total Alistair fan girl. I do really like him, but I find Loghain a lot more interesting and I empathise with him more. I tend to find that type of character very appealing.

#53
Reaverwind

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Aynslie wrote...

hmm I can't bring myself TO spare Loghain. Every time Riordian comes out with that stupid plan to turn him into a Gray Warden I can't help but pick the "you gotta be kidding" type options. Considering his joining doesn't make it now 4 Gray Wardens fighting the Archdemon I don't see the point. I understand that it was absolutely paranoia on his part that caused him to believe that the Orlesians were the real threat, but that paranoia killed an entire army of men who were following his and the Kings orders. He saved the army under his command but left hundreds of soldiers who looked up to him and relied on him to die. I don't care if he was some how able to save Andraste in any of the books the man deserves a traitors death. That and he abandoned my GW at that battle also so it gets a little personal too lol.



Yup - that's what remains uppermost in my mind. If you're that worried about an invasion, you don't throw away half your armed forces. And if he really was caught by surprise (which I don't buy for one second given the scouting parties sent out prior) by the darkspawn numbers - that should have cleared up any doubt about what was the more immediate threat. From there, he made blunder after blunder.

Edit: Most rulers and/or countries don't give a rat's ass about a military leader's patriotism in the light of incompetance. Loghain got more of a free pass than many generals get.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 23 février 2010 - 11:01 .


#54
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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I don't feel bad about killing him. Though i do wish you had the option to strip him and send him into exile. He is a fascinating character, one who in most playthroughs my characters hate, and I do like bringing him low. I've read the Stolen Throne. In some ways, it makes me want to kill him even more. I often consider him in my playthroughs too dangerous to live.



But I can also understand why people don't want to kill him or recruit him, one way or another. he has a case of Darth Vader syndrome, I think. The evil twisted villan, once a hero, who's an ass and making your life hell, but at the same time, is too cool to really hate. because he's not your average card board cutout cackling villian with mad plans to take over the world.

#55
Demx

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bluebullets wrote...

I am on page 200 of the stolen throne, and Loghain seems like a stand-up guy.

He helps when he does not need to, and I understand his reasoning behind his decisions now.. I do not believe Anora was in danger, either.

Loghains betrayal was EXTREMELY uncharacteristic, he has gone into lost battles before, and it is not like him to abandon one, especially one he is loyal o.

Anybody else feel bad about killing him in all 4 playthroughs? :P


I actually never really held a grudge against him. His daughter is different, and your comment seems to reinforce my feelings about her. :bandit:

#56
Barbarossa2010

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@KnightofPhoenix,

A very well thought out defense of Loghain. I do view Loghain through the lens of human duality and am attracted to him as a character.

While his state of paranoia can certainly be debated, I cannot give him a pass on the Blight. He fails to comprehend the full scale of it and react to the impending danger. During the Landsmeet when he is pleading with the nobles to rally to him, he still insists Orlais is a greater threat than the Darkspawn. Ignorance of this is no defense for him. He is a general, and his foray into politics, coupled with his insurmountable past, paralyzed him to triage the threats to the nation he loves.

His "paranoia" (let’s call it a temporary condition) blinds him. He explicitly states that he doubts this is a real Blight. Every other noble and leader you encounter seems to grasp the reality of the Blight however. I remember watching the cut scene at the Landsmeet and shouting at the screen "gods man, let it go. You are a general! You are getting ready to get buried by a threat staring you right in the face and yet you insist upon remaining blind and making war on your own people."

I reflected that while Orlais MAY indeed be a threat, the Blight was most DEFINITELY a threat; and it was on his doorstep. But Loghain's paranoia (perhaps it wasn’t to the point of a clinical diagnosis :-)) paralyzed his judgment and crippled his situational understanding of current events. Had he not stated that "this was not a real Blight" I could be better swayed. Knowing what we know of Cailan, his correspondence with Celene, his fatherly attachment to Anora, etc, he probably was justified through reason (at least in his own mind) in his (re)actions.

The most damning thing to me however, is that he quits the field of battle and abandons innocent soldiers to their deaths at the hands of Darkspawn. As a combat veteran, this is something I am simply incapable of overlooking. It is simply not done, and Loghain is a field general of renown. This I felt to be his biggest crime; a crime that he had to answer for. Had he only assassinated Cailan (the biggest threat in Loghain's mind and certainly the Crows could have gotten to him) and allied with the Wardens, I might have agreed with pro-Loghain players all the way.

His view is obviously shaped by the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden, and perhaps rightly so; but while he focuses on the trauma of his youth, he wishes away the most urgent danger staring him right in the face, forgets he is a general first, and makes a critical mistake.

Having said all this, I still believe him an honorable man at his core; very flawed, but honorable. Leaving him at the Gate at Denerim was a satisfactory sentence in the view of my Warden. No instantly heroic death blow and no instant execution; but instead a long, slow, grinding task of justice that ultimately would end in his redemption in the Deep Roads.

Just my view and thanks for the discussion.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 23 février 2010 - 11:59 .


#57
Thalorin1919

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

I spared Loghain once. But I felt like I betrayed Alistair and the Grey Wardens, since this guy labeled us as traitors.

Other then that, I usually have Alistair kill him. And his blood spraying all over Anora just makes victory and vengeance ever the sweeter.


RIght.

Posted Image

Somethings I'll never understand. I don't really want to.


How can you not understand that?

Anora would betray her father at the landsmeet and slander him. Or she would betray the person that saved her and slander them. Power-hungry, and that is all she cares about. Even discards her father to gain the throne.

Loghain and Anora are alike. Willing to betray people for there own benefits, and because what they think is the only right way of doing something. With that kind of mentality, you wont gain anything.

And yes, it made thy vengeace ever the sweeter. Maker bless my soul.

#58
KnightofPhoenix

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@ Barbarossa.
I have already argued why Loghain couldn't know that it was a real blight. The others did out of fear, but they didn't understand. They know nothing of the Wardens. Loghain is cynical and suspicious by nature, he isn't going to believes the Wardens until they prove their case. They can't do that. Yes, he made a mistake, but it was one out of understandable ignorance, not hatred or idiocy.
In essence, Cailan and the others were right, for the wrong reasons. Loghain was wrong, for the right reasons.

And with all due respect, there is no such thing as "innocent soldier". Soldiers know what they get themselves into. Had Loghain charged, there was no guarantee of winning. RtO hints heavily at this. The mages were scaterred, Cailan's forces were flanked. There is no guarantee that Ostagar would have been a victory. Had Loghain joined the battle, he might have lost even more soldiers. And for what? To satisfy the glory mongering of a childish king?

He abandonned the field to save the lives of his men from pointless death. If doing so required him to abandon those who were at the front, then so be it. But he knew it was a hard choice and he never felt good about it. He tells Wynne that he knows how much he sacrificed. That he knew his men, their faces, their names. It wasn't easy for him to do this. But he did it because he felt, and he is most probably right, it was necessary to save Ferelden from a pointless battle that would have ended as a disaster.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 février 2010 - 02:27 .


#59
Ken555

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If you feel bad about it you can just accept his surrender. But the downside is Alistair leaves you.

#60
Wicked 702

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It's been said a few times already but for me it is completely a character specific role playing decision. My personal feelings towards the man are temporarily irrelevant. I will always do what is right for my character.

As such, my female HN killed Loghain herself due to the same reasons others have stated. The introduction of Howe as Teyrn of Highever, when clearly Loghain knew who I was from Ostagar, was completely unforgivable. My normally good and pure noble sunk into such a fit of blood rage that was only sated when I personally killed the bastard. I also did it as a sort of wedding present to you know who. It was my first step into truly assuming the role of a noble and ruler. Got to make the hard decisions sometimes.

My mage, on the other hand, is not evil but rather opportunistic. He'll help when it suits him, reward or not. Power is his real goal. Knowledge. Like Avernus... In his case I will let Loghain live because I see the utility in using him as a pawn. Alistair does not fit the role as well. And we don't get along very well as you might imagine.

#61
Malkavianqueen

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Loghain is alive in the vast majority of my playthroughs. :) But when I do kill him, I feel horrible. I usually just make Alistair do it!

#62
Addai

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
He abandonned the field to save the lives of his men from pointless death. 

He couldn't have known that and neither can we.  As such, his retreat was either that of a coward or of a ruthless opportunist, but it cannot be considered a tactical retreat.

#63
Ken555

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Loghain deserved what he got

#64
Ken555

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But I agree, I like alistair doing it. He has a good reason to avenge his half - brother. I on the other hand only take satisfaction in killing arl howe.

#65
KnightofPhoenix

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Addai67 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
He abandonned the field to save the lives of his men from pointless death. 

He couldn't have known that and neither can we.  As such, his retreat was either that of a coward or of a ruthless opportunist, but it cannot be considered a tactical retreat.


Sun Tzu would tell you that if a general, simply by the fact that he doesn't know if he can win, has to retreat immediately and not rush blindly. So, in the eyes of Sun Tzu, the writer of the Art of War, he would consider Loghain's act as a tactical retreat and a sensible thing to do.

And yes, he did know that the probability of losing was higher than winning. He said so many times after the battle, especially in RtO, which confirms what he thought. The fact that it took so long for the beacon to be lit, ended his doubts and prompted him into action. Which was retreating.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 février 2010 - 03:51 .


#66
Addai

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Self-justification after the fact (such as that which Loghain expresses) isn't worth the air used to voice it.

What general ever knows that he can win a battle? If that is the standard, why fight at all? Why did Loghain not withdraw his troops from Ostagar immediately rather than let Cailan walk into a trap of Loghain's own devising?

Modifié par Addai67, 24 février 2010 - 04:38 .


#67
KnightofPhoenix

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Addai67 wrote...

Self-justification after the fact (such as that which Loghain expresses) isn't worth the air used to voice it.

What general ever knows that he can win a battle? If that is the standard, why fight at all? Why did Loghain not withdraw his troops from Ostagar immediately rather than let Cailan walk into a trap of Loghain's own devising?


You can dismiss it as self-justification, but whatever we found out in RtO proved that Loghain's instincts were correct, the battle was most likely lost.

Loghain did not want to fight at Ostagar from the very beginning, but Cailan insisted. Loghain saw that the darkspawn were getting stronger and stronger after each battle.
But nonetheless, I think he was going to join the battle, but he was already preprared for retreating if he needed to do so.
The reason he decided to retreat is:
a- the darkspawn turned out to be even more numerous then expected. Mary Kirby said that while Loghain couldn't see the battlefield clearly, he could still see a small part of it and saw that the darkspawns are more numerous than he thought.
b- the beacon took too long for it to be lit. So he assumed, and he was right, that the battle was already lost at that point. We know from Wynne that the magese scattered, Cailan was flanked from two sides (as RtO tells us) and it was a complete disaster even before the beacon was lit. By the time it was lit, it was too late.

And what trap? Loghain time and time again told Cailan not to be at the frontlines. Cailan refused. He was the one who entrapped himself in this mess.

Loghain acted on instinct (something he does in Stolen throne). And his instincts were most probably correct. It was not cowardice. He is the kind of man that would give his life for his country. Nor was it opportunism, he nver wanted power but felt he was the only one who can save Ferelden.

And if a general has high doubts about winning, then he shouldn't fight. I am not saying they have to know 100% they have to win. But if the outcome of the battle is highly questionable, the sensible thing to do is not to fight. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 février 2010 - 04:54 .


#68
Addai

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what trap? Loghain time and time again told Cailan not to be at the frontlines. Cailan refused. He was the one who entrapped himself in this mess.

Loghain acted on instinct (something he does in Stolen throne). And his instincts were most probably correct. It was not cowardice. He is the kind of man that would give his life for his country. Nor was it opportunism, he nver wanted power but felt he was the only one who can save Ferelden.

And if a general has high doubts about winning, then he shouldn't fight. I am not saying they have to know 100% they have to win. But if the outcome of the battle is highly questionable, the sensible thing to do is not to fight. 

Loghain is the one who devised the flanking + beacon plan.  If he had such doubts, as you say yourself, he should not have fought at all.  He should have said- before the battle, when it actually counted- "I am sorry, Your Majesty, but I cannot be part of this."  That would have been the honorable thing.

The fact that he covered up his treachery is proof that it was just that.  As Oswyn tells you in Howe's dungeon, they were suppressing those who were telling anything but the official story of Ostagar, by any means necessary.

#69
KnightofPhoenix

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Addai67 wrote...
Loghain is the one who devised the flanking + beacon plan.  If he had such doubts, as you say yourself, he should not have fought at all.  He should have said- before the battle, when it actually counted- "I am sorry, Your Majesty, but I cannot be part of this."  That would have been the honorable thing.

The fact that he covered up his treachery is proof that it was just that.  As Oswyn tells you in Howe's dungeon, they were suppressing those who were telling anything but the official story of Ostagar, by any means necessary.


Easier said than done. What should have happened is Cailan listening to the man who knows more about war then he ever will. taht didn't happen. Loghain couldn't simply tell the king that he isn't going to commit his forces.

And like David Gaider said, though he had initial doubts, he was still planing to fight at Ostagar, while also preparing for a contingency plan, which would have facilitated a retreat with minimised casualties. 
It was only during the battle that he thought that it was unwinnable, again as David Gaider said.

And of course he is going to cover up the deed. Those who weren't at the battle, or have no military experience, won't understand Loghain's hard choice. For the time being, it was obviouslyfor the best that no one knows what really happened. So I fail to see how this point is relevent.
In addition, his official story isn't that far from the truth. Cailan's death was largely motivated by his belief in stories and legends and about the "invincibility" of the Wardens. We can clearly see even Duncan rasing an eyebrow at Cailan's self confidence that comes from the presence of the Wardens.
So Cailan's death was indeed due to his own foolishness and due to, indirectly, the Wardens encouraging him to be a douche. Duncan coudl have slapped some sense in him, but didn't. Why? Because Cailan being enamored by the Wardens is useful that way.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 février 2010 - 05:04 .


#70
Monica21

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Addai67 wrote...

Self-justification after the fact (such as that which Loghain expresses) isn't worth the air used to voice it.

What general ever knows that he can win a battle? If that is the standard, why fight at all? Why did Loghain not withdraw his troops from Ostagar immediately rather than let Cailan walk into a trap of Loghain's own devising?

Just my opinion, as a civiilan and one who's never been in war, but I believe the idea has less to do with certainty of winning as being able to overwhelm and control the battlefield. I remember an interview with Scott O'Grady, the U.S. pilot who was shot down over Bosnia in 1995. He explained his rescue, and I remember very clearly his statement that you never go into a situation like that with a Rambo. You need to know you have control and know you can dominate. He wasn't rescued by a single guy dragging him out, he was rescued with overwhelming air and naval support, and we're just talking one guy, not an entire army.

Modifié par Monica21, 24 février 2010 - 05:33 .


#71
Xandurpein

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Addai67 wrote...

Self-justification after the fact (such as that which Loghain expresses) isn't worth the air used to voice it.

What general ever knows that he can win a battle? If that is the standard, why fight at all? Why did Loghain not withdraw his troops from Ostagar immediately rather than let Cailan walk into a trap of Loghain's own devising?


A really good General never fights a battle until he is reasonably certain he can win, or he has no other option. You don't gamble away thousands of peoples lives on a maybe. A weaker force certainly don't willingly offer battle, they try to get away and hope the balance will change in the future. That is why warfare for the most part does NOT consist of battle, but maneuvering for position. War, at least before the age of mass conscription and industrialism, consisted of endless marchers back and forth, maneuvering until the stronger side managed to corner the weaker side so that they had to fight. Soldiers could march for months without seeing a battle. Cailan's idea of rushing headlong into battle, against a superior force is just bad generalship. Loghain did what any decent general should have one.

#72
jpdipity

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Do I feel bad? Absolutely not. I am even more eager to strike him down at the Landsmeet. After reading the books, I think much less of him.



While playing the game, I thought that he appeared to be a die-hard Patriot wanting to protect Fereldan fervently from its previous occupiers. I get that – tough choices must be made by leaders to protect the community.



However, after reading the books, I don’t think he is a Patriot at all. Loghain was an admirable fighter, tactician and leader; however, I find little-to-no evidence that he did any of it for Fereldan.



He fought for Maric – not for King Maric, but for his friend, Maric. He was a reluctant soldier and even questions repeatedly why he has stayed. He is ready to leave the cause because of Rowan and ends up staying for Maric, not for Fereldan. It is Maric’s words or Maric’s safety that spurs patriotic actions from Loghain. Thoroughout the book, Loghain’s thoughts, without Maric’s interjection, are selfish. Maric was the best of him.



By allowing Cailan to fall so callously, Loghain dishonors everything that made him endearing in books. He would have never turned his back and accepted defeat so easily if it was Maric on the battlefield. Both Maric and Loghain won back Fereldan because of their risky battle decisions - it built his career. Now, when Cailan faces certain death without Loghain's help, he worries about safety. I'm not buying it - seems to be a very convenient decision that produces a lucrative opportunity for him.