297 réponses à ce sujet

[A Fhaol Bhig]

I really do, I mean I'm not going to say they didn't make the game more of a shooter, but I will deny that their is little RPG in the game.

I'm a total nerd for using these two things as my examples, but bear with me.

Pokemon is considered a simple RPG. Water beats fire, you level up and get like +3 to your attack, you catch pokemon to be used on your team, you use items to increase your attack or defense or whatever, and you can use stat boosters.

Those are all parts of the RPG experience, but just because its "simple" doesn't mean it can't be complicated, I mean seriously try playing against someone who's spent some time developing a balanced, leveled, and experienced team and see how well you do.

RPG's pretty much all come from Dungeons and Dragons, in which you control a ROLE, and PLAY the GAME. You have criticals, and super effectives, and dice rolls and so on.

In ME2 you take control of a character that you customize to your specific want, each class plays a role that brings something different. The solider is the warrior, the adept is the magician, the infiltrator is the rouge.

Attacks like overload are super-effective against shields and sythentics right? Super effective is again, a trade-mark of RPG's, the essential water beats fire. Warp is another example of "super effectives"

When you level up, you pick what you want to put your points into, instead of a 2% boost like in ME or pokemon, you get +6 boost, which is basicly three skill points in ME. Sure their is less, and its more streamlined, but its still their. You get bigger boosts and class becomes more specialized with its stronger abillities balancing the weaker ones.

All the amour gives you +5 in health, or +10 in speed, an element of RPG's in which items give you a boost to yours stats.

Certain characters give your party a boost in your stats also, a staple of RPG's in which someone (usually a leader) or support class *coughmirandacough* mostly stays back and uses their powers to help the group instead of direcly going into the battle, they tend to be more fragile.
 
Ammo types, different ones give different amounts of damage, and are effective versus different types of enemies and armours/shields. Warp ammo is super effective against health, barriers, and armor. An RPG element, Armour Piercing is VERY effective against health and Armour. Having different attacks, or in this case, ammo for different situations is anothe staple of RPG's. You don't bring fire to the water temple now do you?

Thats all I can think of for now, long post, sorry for the wall of text. Its just I see all this complaining about the RPG elements being gone, when their are still lots of them included. Yes, its not turn based combat with you casting one warp, and waiting, its not slow, its fast paced, and twitchy (especially on the harder difficulties) but its still their. everytime you cast overload on a shield, your using well worn RPG elements.

[Metallisika]

Pokemans is considered an RPG?

Modifié par Metallisika, 23 février 2010 - 12:02 .

[newcomplex]

"Lack" is a subjective term. I don't think anyone can argue that Mass Effect is simply NOT a RPG. You get levels, you get money, you get weapons, you get upgrade, you get skillpoints...anyone who could possibly even think of argueing that its not a RPG is simply a blathering idiot.

What people are disappointed in is it isn't sufficient a RPG for their tastes. In comparison past Bioware games which had inventory systems and a more developed damage determination formulas and other combat mechanics, it certainly "lacks" RPG in comparison.

Personally, I think thats fine, and the above applies to the original ME too. Its refreshing to see bioware do something vaguely new for a change that doesn't suck as badly as Jade Empire.   Though I do miss ME1s fun weapon upgrade system.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 23 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[A Fhaol Bhig]

newcomplex wrote...

"Lack" is a subjective term. I don't think anyone can argue that Mass Effect is simply NOT a RPG. You get levels, you get money, you get weapons, you get upgrade, you get skillpoints...anyone who could possibly even think of argueing that its not a RPG is simply a blathering idiot.

What people are disappointed in is it isn't sufficient a RPG for their tastes. In comparison past Bioware games which had inventory systems and a more developed damage determination formulas and other combat mechanics, it certainly "lacks" RPG in comparison.

Personally, I think thats fine, and the above applies to the original ME too. Its refreshing to see bioware do something vaguely new for a change that doesn't suck as badly as Jade Empire.   Though I do miss ME1s fun weapon upgrade system.    

I suppose it is(lack being a subjective term), thanks for the balanced, and non-flaming opinion.

And I sorta miss the weapon upgrade system too, but I don't miss having to scroll for a minute to get to one upgrade.

Modifié par A Fhaol Bhig, 23 février 2010 - 12:07 .

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Metallisika wrote...

Pokemans is considered an RPG?

Yes it is, It's the most popular one besides D&D.

[withateethuh]

We're still arguing about this? Mass Effect 1 wasn't even a very traditional rpg.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

withateethuh wrote...

We're still arguing about this? Mass Effect 1 wasn't even a very traditional rpg.

Agreed, fully, but its still an RPG.

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

ME2 is an RPG, but lacks the depth other RPGs have brought, everyone now just goes for the simple controls, simple layout, simple strategies, simple leveling, simple equipment management.. and so on.



So in short, its a game for consoles and quick profit, that is all.

[Gorn Kregore]

withateethuh wrote...

We're still arguing about this? Mass Effect 1 wasn't even a very traditional rpg.

Thats the worst part about this argument. People act like it was (sad really).

[A Fhaol Bhig]

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

ME2 is an RPG, but lacks the depth other RPGs have brought, everyone now just goes for the simple controls, simple layout, simple strategies, simple leveling, simple equipment management.. and so on.

So in short, its a game for consoles and quick profit, that is all.

That's a great arguement, I see all this logic in it. I mean, gosh its great you know exactly what every member of Bioware thinks.

Don't like the game, thats fine, but keep it focused on the game, not profit and whatever stupid conspiracy theory you have set up.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Gorn Kregore wrote...

withateethuh wrote...

We're still arguing about this? Mass Effect 1 wasn't even a very traditional rpg.

Thats the worst part about this argument. People act like it was (sad really).

I mean, I came for the story and the characters really. Not much much else, I didn't go OMG RPG SPAZZZ!1111!!!

I went, "this looks like a great game" It has RPG elements, and it has shooter elements, its never said that the focus of the game was an RPG.

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

ME2 is an RPG, but lacks the depth other RPGs have brought, everyone now just goes for the simple controls, simple layout, simple strategies, simple leveling, simple equipment management.. and so on.

So in short, its a game for consoles and quick profit, that is all.

That's a great arguement, I see all this logic in it. I mean, gosh its great you know exactly what every member of Bioware thinks.

Don't like the game, thats fine, but keep it focused on the game, not profit and whatever stupid conspiracy theory you have set up.

Lol i meant quick profit ingame and it makes all sense for consoles like this, everything is just given to you without having to look for it, you just stumble upon it so its quick profit no?

Edit: Maybe i should have replaced the word "profit" with "reward"

Modifié par MoonChildTheUnholy, 23 février 2010 - 12:40 .

[A Fhaol Bhig]

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

ME2 is an RPG, but lacks the depth other RPGs have brought, everyone now just goes for the simple controls, simple layout, simple strategies, simple leveling, simple equipment management.. and so on.

So in short, its a game for consoles and quick profit, that is all.

That's a great arguement, I see all this logic in it. I mean, gosh its great you know exactly what every member of Bioware thinks.

Don't like the game, thats fine, but keep it focused on the game, not profit and whatever stupid conspiracy theory you have set up.

Lol i meant quick profit ingame and it makes all sense for consoles like this, everything is just given to you without having to look for it, you just stumble upon it so its quick profit no?

Edit: Maybe i should have replaced the word "profit" with "reward"

sorry, I overeact easy when it comes to defending things.

I can see where you get that idea.

[SkullandBonesmember]

*cracks knuckles and sighs*



Allow me to get the standard "XP, class skills, and loot are role playing in the most shallow of ways" comment in. Thanks.



Now, modern RPGs, because all video games evolve over time, live and die by characters and plot. Good day.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

*cracks knuckles and sighs*

Allow me to get the standard "XP, class skills, and loot are role playing in the most shallow of ways" comment in. Thanks.

Now, modern RPGs, because all video games evolve over time, live and die by characters and plot. Good day.

...Okay? My point was that elements like that made it partially an RPG, not that it had a deep, never understand it completely system of Dice rolls and thunder spells.

Thanks for pointing out something entirely obvious and pointless.

[steelmccoy]

A staple of RPGs has always been that outcomes are determined primarily by character stats rather than player's reflexes and direct control. By removing weapon and social skills from characters, the balance between RPG and shooter from Mass Effect 1 has shifted more to the shooter end for Mass Effect 2. While both are hybrids, this is a big reason why many people (myself included) view ME 2 as less of an RPG and are dissapointed.



Of course ME 2 still has many RPG elements, they just aren't as predominant in combat any more. Characters are less customizable as a result. Without social skills its harder to play as a neutral character because many valuable paragon/renegade options are blocked off, whereas before you could make up for it by spending character points.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

steelmccoy wrote...

A staple of RPGs has always been that outcomes are determined primarily by character stats rather than player's reflexes and direct control. By removing weapon and social skills from characters, the balance between RPG and shooter from Mass Effect 1 has shifted more to the shooter end for Mass Effect 2. While both are hybrids, this is a big reason why many people (myself included) view ME 2 as less of an RPG and are dissapointed.

Of course ME 2 still has many RPG elements, they just aren't as predominant in combat any more. Characters are less customizable as a result. Without social skills its harder to play as a neutral character because many valuable paragon/renegade options are blocked off, whereas before you could make up for it by spending character points.

I have never disagreed with that. I know Its more a shooter now, I just felt obligated to point out the elements that ME does have, that is/are typical of RPG's.

I have to disagree with the social thing, yes options get blocked off, but that just means you play truer to what you are.

Also, I mean when I got to Tali's quest, I had both options avaliable to me, simply because I tend to be 70% paragon and 30% renagade. So I had enough points in each that I could choose either option. The only time I couldn't choose at least one, if not both was during the miranda/jack argument.

So yes, you do get less options, but for most of the game, it shouldn't be to much of a problem to play as the kind of person you want to play as.

[steelmccoy]

Yeah, your op was very reasonable. A lot of the complainers do go to the extreme end, so I can understand your desire to point out that it retains many of its RPG elements. Although characters play different roles in combat, I feel like this too is reduced from ME 1 - all characters are equally skilled with the weapons they use.



The social thing is a pretty minor gripe. "play[ing] truer to what you are" shows how this is less of an RPG, though. It means you get to play a good guy or a bad guy, which again is less complexity and less customization.

[BrianWilly]

In a lot of ways I feel like the combat in ME2 is more RPG-like than in ME1. The shielding types and the sorts of abilities or weapons you'd have to use against that felt very strategic and RPGish for me, and you didn't really see that at all in ME1.

[haberman13]

ivan.inverse wrote...

Those ****ing about a lack of RPG elements must mean "convoluted and cumbersome inventory system" when they say "RPG elements."

Yes, by RPG we mean "convoluted and cumbersome", ... give me a break..

How about some honest analysis?

[A Fhaol Bhig]

steelmccoy wrote...

Yeah, your op was very reasonable. A lot of the complainers do go to the extreme end, so I can understand your desire to point out that it retains many of its RPG elements. Although characters play different roles in combat, I feel like this too is reduced from ME 1 - all characters are equally skilled with the weapons they use.

The social thing is a pretty minor gripe. "play[ing] truer to what you are" shows how this is less of an RPG, though. It means you get to play a good guy or a bad guy, which again is less complexity and less customization.

This people, is an example of a debate, not an arguement, a debate. Big difference.


I really enjoyed not sucking with weapons in the beggining. I suppose they could cap that in ME3, were you aren't terrible with your weapons, just average with aiming and such, and as you complete more of the game you just naturally (withou spending skill points) get better and better simply because you become more powerful. Which is always an aspect I enjoy of RPG's, that sense of progression and power.

Mhmm, I don't really agree again. Maybe I'm not understanding completely what your saying, because being more yourself isn't something radically different in an RPG, and in ME2, they just made it so that you get points for being whatever. so if your good, it doesn't bring down your renegade. Instead of having to spend points, which I found mostly a waste, I get mini "levels" for either doing the actions I want (punching someone XD) or the ones that I would do normally (giving a guy medi-gel)

[A Fhaol Bhig]

BrianWilly wrote...

In a lot of ways I feel like the combat in ME2 is more RPG-like than in ME1. The shielding types and the sorts of abilities or weapons you'd have to use against that felt very strategic and RPGish for me, and you didn't really see that at all in ME1.

True, I mean sheilds were just their in ME, in ME2 I go OVERLOAD! WARP AMMO! WARP!

[Schneidend]

Metallisika wrote...

Pokemans is considered an RPG?

HP? Leveling up? Stats? Spells? Equipment (potions, stat boosting items, and the monsters can hold items these days)? Sounds like an RPG to me.

Look into the more complex aspects of the Pokemon games, like individual and effort values some time. There's actually some pretty serious stuff going on behind the scenes when it comes to creating a perfectly developed Pokemon. I've read the mathcraft extensively and I still don't understand a lot of it.

Modifié par Schneidend, 27 février 2010 - 03:06 .

[-D-C-D-]

Bump it up to insanity or hardcore, arguably how it is intended to be played. Through that alone, I could argue that ME2 is one of the more strategic RPGs out there, let alone just an RPG. Sure, it's subjective, as a lot of people have different ideas on the specifics which actually make up an RPG, but for me, it hits everything I look for.