297 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

Pokemon is considered a simple RPG.

By whom?  Where in Pokemon is there roleplaying?

In ME2 you take control of a character

This is untrue.  Both ME and ME 2 fail to allow you control over your PC. 

[ian528]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

Pokemon is considered a simple RPG.

By whom?  Where in Pokemon is there roleplaying?

In terms of simply leveling up and making the creature more powerful there are RPG elements in pokemon such that some think it qualifies as an RPG.  I tend to disagree but I do concede the leveling of the character is something that is typically an RPG thing.

In ME2 you take control of a character

This is untrue.  Both ME and ME 2 fail to allow you control over your PC. 

How does it fail to let you control your PC?  Do you want to shoot everyone or screw everyone?  What do you want your Sheppard to do?  Or is it the fact you are only allowed to make Shepard human?

[Sylvius the Mad]

ian528 wrote...

How does it fail to let you control your PC?  Do you want to shoot everyone or screw everyone?  What do you want your Sheppard to do?  Or is it the fact you are only allowed to make Shepard human?

It's the inability to control Shepard in conversation that prevents roleplaying in ME and ME2.

It is not possible to know what your dialogue inputs will cause Shepard to say or do until after those words and actions have taken place.  This makes it impossible to play a character with a coherent personality without repeatedly replaying literally every single conversation in the game.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

ian528 wrote...

How does it fail to let you control your PC?  Do you want to shoot everyone or screw everyone?  What do you want your Sheppard to do?  Or is it the fact you are only allowed to make Shepard human?

It's the inability to control Shepard in conversation that prevents roleplaying in ME and ME2.

It is not possible to know what your dialogue inputs will cause Shepard to say or do until after those words and actions have taken place.  This makes it impossible to play a character with a coherent personality without repeatedly replaying literally every single conversation in the game.

So, from the dialouge option "go to hell" you can't guess what lines he will say?

Wow.

[Sylvius the Mad]

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

So, from the dialouge option "go to hell" you can't guess what lines he will say?

Of course I can guess.  But I can't know I'll be right every single time.

You clearly haven't ever designed your character's complete personality in advance of playing the game.

[Minister of Sound]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

ian528 wrote...

How does it fail to let you control your PC?  Do you want to shoot everyone or screw everyone?  What do you want your Sheppard to do?  Or is it the fact you are only allowed to make Shepard human?

It's the inability to control Shepard in conversation that prevents roleplaying in ME and ME2.

It is not possible to know what your dialogue inputs will cause Shepard to say or do until after those words and actions have taken place.  This makes it impossible to play a character with a coherent personality without repeatedly replaying literally every single conversation in the game.

This.

EDIT: Whoops, I thought he was referring to the fact some convos don't let you choose Shepard's words.

Modifié par Minister of Sound, 08 mars 2010 - 10:57 .

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

So, from the dialouge option "go to hell" you can't guess what lines he will say?

Of course I can guess.  But I can't know I'll be right every single time.

You clearly haven't ever designed your character's complete personality in advance of playing the game.

No I haven't, considering I'm limited to a certain amount of predetermined responses anyways, I just choose the one I want to.

I've never had the problem you two are talking about, but again, that's just me. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying that its not a problem for everyone.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Minister of Sound wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

ian528 wrote...

How does it fail to let you control your PC?  Do you want to shoot everyone or screw everyone?  What do you want your Sheppard to do?  Or is it the fact you are only allowed to make Shepard human?

It's the inability to control Shepard in conversation that prevents roleplaying in ME and ME2.

It is not possible to know what your dialogue inputs will cause Shepard to say or do until after those words and actions have taken place.  This makes it impossible to play a character with a coherent personality without repeatedly replaying literally every single conversation in the game.

This.

EDIT: Whoops, I thought he was referring to the fact some convos don't let you choose Shepard's words.

That's one thing I blatantly disagree with, I mean really I don't think you saying "go to hell" and shepard saying "I'll reliquish one bullet, where do you want it"
Then the person responds, and Shepard automaticly says (for instance) alright.

Isn't exactly taking you out of the character.

Modifié par A Fhaol Bhig, 08 mars 2010 - 11:09 .

[ian528]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

So, from the dialouge option "go to hell" you can't guess what lines he will say?

Of course I can guess.  But I can't know I'll be right every single time.

You clearly haven't ever designed your character's complete personality in advance of playing the game.

This is a degree of role playing I was not aware was available in computer RPGs.   So you want the ability to put in some comment on the fly have the program tell whether it was positive or negative and give you an appropriate response?

[Sylvius the Mad]

ian528 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

So, from the dialouge option "go to hell" you can't guess what lines he will say?

Of course I can guess.  But I can't know I'll be right every single time.

You clearly haven't ever designed your character's complete personality in advance of playing the game.

This is a degree of role playing I was not aware was available in computer RPGs.   So you want the ability to put in some comment on the fly have the program tell whether it was positive or negative and give you an appropriate response?

Not at all.

I want the ability (which every CRPG gives me) to vet my PC's responses so he doesn't ever contradict himself or make claims I don't intend.  Simply letting me know in advance what the options I'm choosing actually entail is sufficient.

DAO does this.  KotOR does this.  Jade Empire does this.  NWN does this.

ME does not.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Okay?

Most people don't mind, in fact most love the conversation wheel as it is.



I'm sorry to say your in a minority.

[Sylvius the Mad]

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

I'm sorry to say your in a minority.

So was Galileo.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Yes, but this is a video game.



Galileo had an impact in the world, Mass Effect will not change how we view out entire world and shape the lives of tens of thousands of people. Mass Effect will not discover new planets, or mathematical equations.



It's pretty stupid of you to compare your situation to His.

Unless you want to be killed for what you believe?



I was just pointing out that your problem probably won't be drasticly addressed because the majority of people won't have the same problem as you.

[Tsuga C]

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...
I was just pointing out that your problem probably won't be drasticly addressed because the majority of people won't have the same problem as you.

People who take their roleplaying seriously have this same objection and they'll (in my experience) be playing on a PC of some sort.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

Tsuga C wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...
I was just pointing out that your problem probably won't be drasticly addressed because the majority of people won't have the same problem as you.

People who take their roleplaying seriously have this same objection and they'll (in my experience) be playing on a PC of some sort.

I noticed that too.


On a random note, I wish I had a good PC.

[CatatonicMan]

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

He mainly talks about nostalgia, and what people consider to be an RPG affecting how people view ME2.

True and true; yet it would have been a far stronger argument for ME2 had it not been a sequel.

It's hard to justify nostalgia when the games are so closely linked (especially when people do a marathon run of both in succession), and it isn't very effective using the too-broadly-defined-genre excuse when making a direct sequel.

ME2 may well be an RPG, but that isn't really the problem many people (with a problem) have with it - that it is too dissimilar from ME1.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

CatatonicMan wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

He mainly talks about nostalgia, and what people consider to be an RPG affecting how people view ME2.

True and true; yet it would have been a far stronger argument for ME2 had it not been a sequel.

It's hard to justify nostalgia when the games are so closely linked (especially when people do a marathon run of both in succession), and it isn't very effective using the too-broadly-defined-genre excuse when making a direct sequel.

ME2 may well be an RPG, but that isn't really the problem many people (with a problem) have with it - that it is too dissimilar from ME1.

Mhmm, again now that you mention it, I do have to state again that it comes down simply to preference.

Many people here critique the game more forcefully than elsewhere because this is devoted to the game. Elsewhere it's hard to not see adoration, so we have the people who love the game, those who don't, and the people who see lots of both.

I didn't really see any major changes to anything besides the combat, leveling, and amount of items (weapons, armour) while I'd have like to have seen more, it didn't break the game for me, but for some it did.

And I agree their is a gap between the two games, but how would the series advance if it didn't have those changes? How do you refine something if you don't try it? I suppose Mass Effect 2 was something of a Full game obviously, but also as a testing ground to refine ME3.

People hated the mako in the first game, and invetory also. its gone in the second. Now people complain about the lack of vehicles, and weapons.

The listened to the feedback and because of all the negativity, they removed it from the game, and made weapons more unique if not various.

With ME3 they will of course see what was hated the most and refine that.

So the problem is nostalgia as mentioned, but also because what the fans wanted, they got. Now they miss what they had because it went to far, or whatever reason.

See what I'm saying?

[Andaius20]

The problem is they took things out completely instead of "fixing" them. Such as all the complaints about the Mako was about the controls right? So instead of improving the controls they taker out the Mako entirely. Then when the outcry for a vehicle is loud they have to come in with the Hammerhead.



Same deal with the Inventory and looting. Complaints of too much crap, instead of tweaking drops and items they remove it completely. Games in a series should evolve not mutate.

[Nomen Mendax]

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

Okay?
Most people don't mind, in fact most love the conversation wheel as it is.

I'm sorry to say your in a minority.

Probably, but its not just Sylvius.  There have been quite a few times when Shepard has said things I wasn't expecting, and that I didn't want to say.  I also have the feeling that this has happened more in ME2 than ME1.  Some of the summary lines (or hints, or whatever you call the things on the wheel) are just too vague and I sometimes feel that they have been aiming more for brevity than information.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

Okay?
Most people don't mind, in fact most love the conversation wheel as it is.

I'm sorry to say your in a minority.

Probably, but its not just Sylvius.  There have been quite a few times when Shepard has said things I wasn't expecting, and that I didn't want to say.  I also have the feeling that this has happened more in ME2 than ME1.  Some of the summary lines (or hints, or whatever you call the things on the wheel) are just too vague and I sometimes feel that they have been aiming more for brevity than information.

I (obviously) haven't yet played ME2, but I was hoping ME2 would handle this somewhat better.  Chris L'Etoile mentioned (many months ago) that the vagueness of the dialogue wheel options was a specific problem with ME that was raised in the internal postmortem for the game, and that they'd be looking to write better options in ME2.

Of course, that good work (assuming there was any) is largely undone by the interrupt system, but I like to think they're at least trying to address the concerns of roleplayers.

[CatatonicMan]

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

Mhmm, again now that you mention it, I do have to state again that it comes down simply to preference.

Many people here critique the game more forcefully than elsewhere because this is devoted to the game. Elsewhere it's hard to not see adoration, so we have the people who love the game, those who don't, and the people who see lots of both.

I didn't really see any major changes to anything besides the combat, leveling, and amount of items (weapons, armour) while I'd have like to have seen more, it didn't break the game for me, but for some it did.

And I agree their is a gap between the two games, but how would the series advance if it didn't have those changes? How do you refine something if you don't try it? I suppose Mass Effect 2 was something of a Full game obviously, but also as a testing ground to refine ME3.

People hated the mako in the first game, and invetory also. its gone in the second. Now people complain about the lack of vehicles, and weapons.

The listened to the feedback and because of all the negativity, they removed it from the game, and made weapons more unique if not various.

With ME3 they will of course see what was hated the most and refine that.

So the problem is nostalgia as mentioned, but also because what the fans wanted, they got. Now they miss what they had because it went to far, or whatever reason.

See what I'm saying?

You just pointed out part of the problem (though it is certainly a matter of perspective and magnitude).

It's good for a series to advance, and trying new and different things can produce excellent results (not always, but often you won't know until you try). Refining what came before is as expected as it is necessary.

The main problem with ME2, though, is that Bioware did not try to refine the mechanics that people complained about - they removed them completely.

Mako too long and boring? Burn it for its insolence!

Inventory too cluttered? Decapitate it!

Squad inventory take too much effort? Send in the clearcutters!

Guns too spammy? Screw the canon, add in (illogical and badly done) thermal clips!

Helmets too removable? Weld them in place! (Yeah, I'm being a bit vindictive with this one.)

Combat awkward? Import Gears of War!

You see? Instead of taking what they had before and making it better, they leveled everything negative and started from scratch. In the process, they managed to take one step forward and two back (and then maybe several to the left, and one up) - something that generally doesn't happen when refining tested mechanics.

Still, even clearcutting isn't necessarily bad. ME2 is a good game in its own right - not necessarily any better than the original, but probably no worse it its own way. But even though it maintains a level of quality, too much was changed; it is a sequel to ME in name/story only.

Anyone who bought ME2 thinking it would be ME1 += 1 (as I did) was bound to be disappointed on these grounds. Some may like ME2 more, of course; but that will be because of the differences between the two rather than the similarities.

Modifié par CatatonicMan, 09 mars 2010 - 12:54 .

[MassEffect762]

CatatonicMan wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

Mhmm, again now that you mention it, I do have to state again that it comes down simply to preference.

Many people here critique the game more forcefully than elsewhere because this is devoted to the game. Elsewhere it's hard to not see adoration, so we have the people who love the game, those who don't, and the people who see lots of both.

I didn't really see any major changes to anything besides the combat, leveling, and amount of items (weapons, armour) while I'd have like to have seen more, it didn't break the game for me, but for some it did.

And I agree their is a gap between the two games, but how would the series advance if it didn't have those changes? How do you refine something if you don't try it? I suppose Mass Effect 2 was something of a Full game obviously, but also as a testing ground to refine ME3.

People hated the mako in the first game, and invetory also. its gone in the second. Now people complain about the lack of vehicles, and weapons.

The listened to the feedback and because of all the negativity, they removed it from the game, and made weapons more unique if not various.

With ME3 they will of course see what was hated the most and refine that.

So the problem is nostalgia as mentioned, but also because what the fans wanted, they got. Now they miss what they had because it went to far, or whatever reason.

See what I'm saying?

You just pointed out part of the problem (though it is certainly a matter of perspective and magnitude).

It's good for a series to advance, and trying new and different things can produce excellent results (not always, but often you won't know until you try). Refining what came before is as expected as it is necessary.

The main problem with ME2, though, is that Bioware did not try to refine the mechanics that people complained about - they removed them completely.

Mako too long and boring? Burn it for its insolence!

Inventory too cluttered? Decapitate it!

Squad inventory take too much effort? Send in the clearcutters!

Guns too spammy? Screw the canon, add in (illogical and badly done) thermal clips!

Helmets too removable? Weld them in place! (Yeah, I'm being a bit vindictive with this one.)

Combat awkward? Import Gears of War!

You see? Instead of taking what they had before and making it better, they leveled everything negative and started from scratch. In the process, they managed to take one step forward and two back (and then maybe several to the left, and one up) - something that generally doesn't happen when refining tested mechanics.

Still, even clearcutting isn't necessarily bad. ME2 is a good game in its own right - not necessarily any better than the original, but probably no worse it its own way. But even though it maintains a level of quality, too much was changed; it is a sequel to ME in name/story only.

Anyone who bought ME2 thinking it would be ME1 += 1 (as I did) was bound to be disappointed on these grounds. Some may like ME2 more, of course; but that will be because of the differences between the two rather than the similarities.

Shao kahn: OUTSTANDING!! MUAWHAHAHA

I'm loving this debate, wish I had more popcorn.

[Nomen Mendax]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

snip
I (obviously) haven't yet played ME2, but I was hoping ME2 would handle this somewhat better.  Chris L'Etoile mentioned (many months ago) that the vagueness of the dialogue wheel options was a specific problem with ME that was raised in the internal postmortem for the game, and that they'd be looking to write better options in ME2.

Of course, that good work (assuming there was any) is largely undone by the interrupt system, but I like to think they're at least trying to address the concerns of roleplayers.

Well at least in my opinon I don't think they did a great job of it.  I've also felt more often in ME2 (compared to ME1) that I'm being forced to choose between two things that I don't want to say.  That is, I don't want to say either of them.   I can't really go into why I think this is without spoilers, so I won't.

[Timerider42]

I agree with OP. Too many RPG elements and it's just not as fun. I still haven't played ME1 but from what I hear all this customization just seems to over-complicate things.

[CatatonicMan]

Timerider42 wrote...

I agree with OP. Too many RPG elements and it's just not as fun. I still haven't played ME1 but from what I hear all this customization just seems to over-complicate things.

Uhh...

Right. I'll just leave you to that, then.