236 réponses à ce sujet

[sten_super]

Morroian wrote...

If I had confirmation that Sten was actually guilty of murder before recruiting him I probably wouldn't, but it was still very ambiguous at that point unlike say Loghain who by the time you get the opportunity to recruit you knew was in league with the person who murdered your family, betrayed you and the king at Ostagar and tried to kill you. Once I found out Sten was in fact guilty I had some sort of a relationship with him and he was clearly on the path to redemption.

I agree with this. I had no problem recruiting Sten because it seemed to me that he was guilty of some kind of miscommunication rather than murder. By the time I found out trully why he had killed those people I was deep enough into his character to understand why. However, I have never recruited Loghain, and I (probably as a result) can't understand those that say he's a deep and well-written character. I've never seen any evidence in my playthroughs of him doing anything other than abandoning his king and seizing power; I'm guessing that you have to recruit him in order to have some conversations about his logic, but I've never felt that an even slightly viable option from a RP perspective.

[onomastikon]

Uh wow what a slew of replies. Thank you. I tried to avoid the spoilers where possible, because I still have never recruited Sten.

I am sure Sten is a fascinating fellow; and obviously, he his appearance as a fighting force to be reckoned with is not false. Still, those do not seem to me to be reasons for my Warden to recruit him -- and here's the crux, for me -- based on the information I get in my encounter with him in the cage. He appears taciturn, willful, and not entirely unpsychopathic. While it is true that one of my party members seems to want to set him free, that party member is Morrigan, whom I have come to like least of all people, whom I trust the least, whose advice seems more often skewed and purile than anything else, and whom I have had to verbally slap more than once.

Basically, I had meant with my original post to insinuate that it would have been better, in my opinion, had Bioware put more ambiguity into the first encounter with Sten; as it is, I just cannot see, from a role-playing standpoint, any reason to free him.

[Ceridraen]

For a few experience points? 'Quest complete.' That was my reasoning. He's the only one I never even began to like. Oghren grew on me - Sten just annoyed me throughout.

The better question is what Duncan ever saw in Ser Jory.


eta:  The BEST question is why some developer/writer didn't expose Isolde as the villain I *know* she is, & give her the gory death her horrid face & whiny voice deserve! I don't care what she did - give me a reason to kill her, without giving her the 'heroic sacrfice out.'  

Modifié par Ceridraen, 24 février 2010 - 02:19 .

[dunachar]

I'll just skip my personal opinion and leave this quote by Riordan here :



"We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits; Anyone with the skill and mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

[Suilebhain]

I truly do not think Ser Jory was ever the choice. I think that was a ruse used by Duncan to gain admission to the castle. Grey Wardens are not above lying if it serves the greater good.

[Lamnom]

sten_super wrote...

Morroian wrote...

If I had confirmation that Sten was actually guilty of murder before recruiting him I probably wouldn't, but it was still very ambiguous at that point unlike say Loghain who by the time you get the opportunity to recruit you knew was in league with the person who murdered your family, betrayed you and the king at Ostagar and tried to kill you. Once I found out Sten was in fact guilty I had some sort of a relationship with him and he was clearly on the path to redemption.

I agree with this. I had no problem recruiting Sten because it seemed to me that he was guilty of some kind of miscommunication rather than murder. By the time I found out trully why he had killed those people I was deep enough into his character to understand why. However, I have never recruited Loghain, and I (probably as a result) can't understand those that say he's a deep and well-written character. I've never seen any evidence in my playthroughs of him doing anything other than abandoning his king and seizing power; I'm guessing that you have to recruit him in order to have some conversations about his logic, but I've never felt that an even slightly viable option from a RP perspective.

Read the book and you will see why would anyone ever recruited Loghain. Loghain is very complex character, that means good, but has his own way to achive it. He was a great friend to King Maric and always stood by his side (well, didn't read the 2nd book, so I am not quite sure about that statement).His actions int he game were driven by his hatred towards Orlais. He saw how they killed his father and everybody he knew, his every friend. They had to live in exile and hide in forest. However Cailan didn't feel such a hatred as was born after all that was just a history. No it doesn't justify what he did, but it explains it and can be understood.

About Sten, Gray Wardens take help if it's offered and Sten's fighting skills as Quinari were quite obvious. As Leliana said: "With us, he could actualy do some good."

[Lusitanum]

Lamnom wrote...

sten_super wrote...

Morroian wrote...

If I had confirmation that Sten was actually guilty of murder before recruiting him I probably wouldn't, but it was still very ambiguous at that point unlike say Loghain who by the time you get the opportunity to recruit you knew was in league with the person who murdered your family, betrayed you and the king at Ostagar and tried to kill you. Once I found out Sten was in fact guilty I had some sort of a relationship with him and he was clearly on the path to redemption.

I agree with this. I had no problem recruiting Sten because it seemed to me that he was guilty of some kind of miscommunication rather than murder. By the time I found out trully why he had killed those people I was deep enough into his character to understand why. However, I have never recruited Loghain, and I (probably as a result) can't understand those that say he's a deep and well-written character. I've never seen any evidence in my playthroughs of him doing anything other than abandoning his king and seizing power; I'm guessing that you have to recruit him in order to have some conversations about his logic, but I've never felt that an even slightly viable option from a RP perspective.

Read the book and you will see why would anyone ever recruited Loghain. Loghain is very complex character, that means good, but has his own way to achive it. He was a great friend to King Maric and always stood by his side (well, didn't read the 2nd book, so I am not quite sure about that statement).

I've read the second book, and yes, Loghain is still the best friend Maric could have ever had, fiercely loyal and dedicated to both his king and his country.

That's why I still can't understand why he did what he did in the beggining of the game.

[LadyDamodred]

Suilebhain wrote...

I truly do not think Ser Jory was ever the choice. I think that was a ruse used by Duncan to gain admission to the castle. Grey Wardens are not above lying if it serves the greater good.

I don't think so.  Jory says he was recruited by Duncan at a tourney held by the Bann of Highever.  If what I've gathered from the game is correct, Arls and Teyrns have Banns under them whose Bannorn might share the same name as the Arling/Teyrnir.  See The Arl and Bann of West Hills for example.  It makes sense.  Duncan wouldn't have needed to lie to get into Highever Castle.  Bryce was clearly a GW supporter, and even if he weren't, he was a decent man who wouldn't  just turn Duncan away.I think Jory was a good guy who in the end couldn't handle it.  It must happen fairly often I would guess, considering the types of people the GW seem to recruit.

Ok, getting back on track.  Sten.  I really don't know how people can't understand why people find reasons to recruit Sten.  Like I said earlier, all of your choices in game are dictated by whatever way you choose to rp your character.  The game doesn't force you to rp in a certain way.  Well, not too much anyway.  That's why in my play throughs, I always pick everyone up, but my reactions to them and interactions with them vary from character to character.  I can come up with reasons to recruit everyone from whatever rp style I am choosing for that character.  If your rp choice says you can't recruit people, I think it's great.  But what I don't get is people unable to understand why others have made different choices.  Is it really that perplexing?

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 24 février 2010 - 03:11 .

[Myusha]

Sten was actually the first optional character I obtained. Poor Leliana died that day in Lothering.



But gosh. Your first non-warden ally is an apostate who'll do anything for herself. Can't you do better with a Murderer looking for redemption?

[Wishpig]

Myusha wrote...
But gosh. Your first non-warden ally is an
apostate who'll do anything for herself. Can't you do better with a
Murderer looking for redemption?

Ya an apostate who helped you earlier on, and then whose mother saved yours and Alistair's life.

Theres a good reason for Morrigan at ur side.

There is none for having Sten at ur side. I do think he makes a valuable ally and someone who turns out to be somewhat trustworthy and a major help to your cause. But you only learn that later on. The way you go about recruiting him is retarded and stupid.

Think about it, your on a mission to save your country, you see a guy who killed an innocent family and is locked up in a cage... so you free him, give him a sword and armor and have him watch your back why?... because he looks tough? Unless your RP'ing a really stupid or gullibally trust worthy character, I don't think it makes anysense.

Hell Loghain and Zevran make more sense... at least they explain themselves and you have somewhat of an understanding about them.

I think there should have been a bit more dialog leading up to you deciding to free him. Like a vow to protect you, or a strong desire to redeem himself... SOMETHING to go on.

Modifié par Wishpig, 24 février 2010 - 03:58 .

[Lamnom]

Wishpig wrote...

Lusitanum wrote...
I've read the second book, and yes, Loghain is still the best friend Maric could have ever had, fiercely loyal and dedicated to both his king and his country.

That's why I still can't understand why he did what he did in the beggining of the game.

No he wasn't... he was a horrible friend in a way. He literally tricked his best friend, Maric, into murdering the woman he loved. I think what happened to Calian was mercifull compared to that. Then he broke the queens heart (forget her name) by dumping her and forcing her to be with Maric.

But yes, he did it because he was so dedicated to king and country. He would kill or screw over anyone if he felt it would help his country.

He is the perfect example of the greyness of the world. His intentions are good but his means are twisted.

Exactly..He betraied Cailan becouse he thought that Cailan's doing is threat to Ferelden and its freedom for Cailen was willing to call for reinforcments from Orlais. And that Loghain considered as unacceptable. 

[maxernst]

Myusha wrote...

Sten was actually the first optional character I obtained. Poor Leliana died that day in Lothering.

But gosh. Your first non-warden ally is an apostate who'll do anything for herself. Can't you do better with a Murderer looking for redemption?

Morrigan and Flemeth have given the Warden the lost treaties and saved his life.  Even though her motives are uncertain, Morrigan's actually the only companion you pick up who's already proven herself an ally of the Grey Wardens.  Whereas Sten--at least in the dialogue I had--didn't say anything about looking for redemption or even ask to be set free.  I would have freed Jowan had he been willing to come along as a companion (I gather that was the original game design) because he told me why he did what he did and was looking for redemption.

[Lamnom]

maxernst wrote...

Myusha wrote...

Sten was actually the first optional character I obtained. Poor Leliana died that day in Lothering.

But gosh. Your first non-warden ally is an apostate who'll do anything for herself. Can't you do better with a Murderer looking for redemption?

Morrigan and Flemeth have given the Warden the lost treaties and saved his life.  Even though her motives are uncertain, Morrigan's actually the only companion you pick up who's already proven herself an ally of the Grey Wardens.  Whereas Sten--at least in the dialogue I had--didn't say anything about looking for redemption or even ask to be set free.  I would have freed Jowan had he been willing to come along as a companion (I gather that was the original game design) because he told me why he did what he did and was looking for redemption.

Yes, but when you invite Jowan to come along, he turn out to be a coward and refuse to follow you to the direct danger.
on other hand, you see an oportunity in inviting Sten. He is a Quinari, and at sight u can tell that he can handle himself in battle. As he has no much choice, it's logical to offer himf reedom in exchange for his help against the blight.

[LadyDamodred]

Wishpig wrote...

There is none for having Sten at ur side. I do think he makes a valuable ally and someone who turns out to be somewhat trustworthy and a major help to your cause. But you only learn that later on. The way you go about recruiting him is retarded and stupid.

 Do you really think so?  My GW is being hunted by the most powerful man in Ferelden and who does she have on her side?  A man who's been a GW for 6 months, an apostate and a dog.  Maybe a slightly batty chantry sister.  Now you come across a powerful warrior who did something terrible.  But, he waited for days to be arrested and voluntarily allows himself to be caged and starved to death slowly over 30 days.  That didn't give your character pause?  Like I said, if your pc has no reason to recruit, that's great.  But as the player, can you really see no reason why he would be recruited?

[Rylor Tormtor]

Lusitanum wrote...

Lamnom wrote...

sten_super wrote...

Morroian wrote...

If I had confirmation that Sten was actually guilty of murder before recruiting him I probably wouldn't, but it was still very ambiguous at that point unlike say Loghain who by the time you get the opportunity to recruit you knew was in league with the person who murdered your family, betrayed you and the king at Ostagar and tried to kill you. Once I found out Sten was in fact guilty I had some sort of a relationship with him and he was clearly on the path to redemption.

I agree with this. I had no problem recruiting Sten because it seemed to me that he was guilty of some kind of miscommunication rather than murder. By the time I found out trully why he had killed those people I was deep enough into his character to understand why. However, I have never recruited Loghain, and I (probably as a result) can't understand those that say he's a deep and well-written character. I've never seen any evidence in my playthroughs of him doing anything other than abandoning his king and seizing power; I'm guessing that you have to recruit him in order to have some conversations about his logic, but I've never felt that an even slightly viable option from a RP perspective.

Read the book and you will see why would anyone ever recruited Loghain. Loghain is very complex character, that means good, but has his own way to achive it. He was a great friend to King Maric and always stood by his side (well, didn't read the 2nd book, so I am not quite sure about that statement).

I've read the second book, and yes, Loghain is still the best friend Maric could have ever had, fiercely loyal and dedicated to both his king and his country.

That's why I still can't understand why he did what he did in the beggining of the game.

I am going to quote myself from like ages and ages ago:

Bah, all this Loghain love is sickening.

No. This wasn't
anything to do with saving his country. Sure, he told himself this
during the day and used it to justify his actions to the nobles around.


His actions were his final revenge. He had been waiting for
years. His bitterness towards Maric because Loghain was in love with
Rowhan (sp). His anger at Maric for his elven dalliances. And finally,
his chance to kill Calian. Calian, who was the symbol of what Maric got
and Loghain didn't. And Calain, whose birth killed his mother (if I am
remember correctly), the woman who Loghain always loved and could never
have.

Loghain is a Lancelot without the moral rectitude to
remove himself from the equation. His not a patriot, he is not a hero
by the time the game starts. He is a small, bitter man, who finally
sees his opportunity to get revenge on his dead 'friend' for having
everything that Loghain wanted.

Some hero.

[Wishpig]

[quote]LadyDamodred wrote...

[quote]Wishpig wrote...

There is none for having Sten at ur side. I do think he makes a valuable ally and someone who turns out to be somewhat trustworthy and a major help to your cause. But you only learn that later on. The way you go about recruiting him is retarded and stupid.

[/quote]
 Do you really think so?  My GW is being hunted by the most powerful man in Ferelden and who does she have on her side?  A man who's been a GW for 6 months, an apostate and a dog.  Maybe a slightly batty chantry sister.  Now you come across a powerful warrior who did something terrible.  But, he waited for days to be arrested and voluntarily allows himself to be caged and starved to death slowly over 30 days.  That didn't give your character pause?  Like I said, if your pc has no reason to recruit, that's great.  But as the player, can you really see no reason why he would be recruited?[/quote]
Did something terrible... you say that like it's a side note. He killed innocent farmers who saved him. Of course you have a reason to recruit, but you don't recruit a person like Sten knowing literally nothing about them. That puts you and your friends in extreme risk, more so then charging into a group of 30 darkspawn. Sure a fella whose good with a sword (and you don't even know how good he is at fighting) is helpfull, but no one's helpfull to you if your dead.

Recruiting Sten, is like you going to deathrow and freeing a known killer to protect you because he's good with a gun. Furthermore it's like asking this person to help you... after they refuse to really talk to you.

It's insane and just asking to have your head chopped off when your not looking.

[quote]Rylor Tormtor wrote...

[quote]Lusitanum wrote...

[quote]Lamnom wrote...
if
I had confirmation that Sten was actually guilty of murder before
recruiting him I probably wouldn't, but it was still very ambiguous at
that point unlike say Loghain who by the time you get the opportunity
to recruit you knew was in league with the person who murdered your
family, betrayed you and the king at Ostagar and tried to kill you.
Once I found out Sten was in fact guilty I had some sort of a
relationship with him and he was clearly on the path to redemption.
[/quote]

I agree with this. I had no problem recruiting Sten
because it seemed to me that he was guilty of some kind of
miscommunication rather than murder. By the time I found out trully why
he had killed those people I was deep enough into his character to
understand why. However, I have never recruited Loghain, and I
(probably as a result) can't understand those that say he's a deep and
well-written character. I've never seen any evidence in my playthroughs
of him doing anything other than abandoning his king and seizing power;
I'm guessing that you have to recruit him in order to have some
conversations about his logic, but I've never felt that an even
slightly viable option from a RP perspective.

[/quote]

Your kidding right? He admitted he killed them, some others admitted he killed them, the church woman said he killed them. Who in there right minds is gonna think, "hey lets recruit him because he MAY be lying about killing those innocent people. It makes sense he lies about that right?"

Modifié par Wishpig, 24 février 2010 - 04:44 .

[Lamnom]

[quote]
Bah, all this Loghain love is sickening.

No. This wasn't
anything to do with saving his country. Sure, he told himself this
during the day and used it to justify his actions to the nobles around.


His actions were his final revenge. He had been waiting for
years. His bitterness towards Maric because Loghain was in love with
Rowhan (sp). His anger at Maric for his elven dalliances. And finally,
his chance to kill Calian. Calian, who was the symbol of what Maric got
and Loghain didn't. And Calain, whose birth killed his mother (if I am
remember correctly), the woman who Loghain always loved and could never
have.

Loghain is a Lancelot without the moral rectitude to
remove himself from the equation. His not a patriot, he is not a hero
by the time the game starts. He is a small, bitter man, who finally
sees his opportunity to get revenge on his dead 'friend' for having
everything that Loghain wanted.

Some hero.
[/quote]

[/quote]



He could have Rowan. He make her forget about him and be a queen as Maric's wife. It was Loghain's own decision. That's proof that he would do anything for his country. Even if it means killing the King himself.

Modifié par Lamnom, 24 février 2010 - 04:51 .

[Derengard]

I recruited him because his answers to my questions were serious and sincere enough and because I knew him beforehand as a major companion and because recruiting him was one of the things that I could do at the moment, and I'd rather take use of any options in the game. And I knew this was supposed to be dark and gritty and that he couldn't go far if he attempted anything, because I was in possession of the sacred reload function. I didn't like him at first, then I found out that he's trustworthy and morally consistent.

Modifié par Derengard, 24 février 2010 - 04:53 .

[karma_killer09]

as far as sten goes, he turns out to be a very loyal team member later on, and when you hear his story about why he killed the farmer, you realize his sword was a part of him and it was almost like it had been raped, so he was a little crazy at the time, besides Zev is an assassin and morrigan has killed as well, shale killed his former master(a lillte different though considering he was experimenting on him)And everyone seems to love duncan but did you forget the joining and how he gutted someone? so just because someone in the game has killed pointlessly once, doesn't mean they wont make a good party member....

[Lamnom]

@Whispig



Well, if the fact he let himself to be imprisoned and starved to death doesn't tell you anything, then don't recruit him next time:)

But it tells me that he has regrets. And I am a Gray Warden. Not judge, not police, not templar whatsoever... And I am in a kind of desperate situation.

[Cutlass Jack]

dunachar wrote...

I'll just skip my personal opinion and leave this quote by Riordan here :

"We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits; Anyone with the skill and mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

Unfortunately we did not get the 'Grey Warden Instruction manual' by the time we ran into Sten at Lothering.

The only person with you who could have known that (Alistair) felt becoming a Warden was an honor, not a punishment.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 24 février 2010 - 05:09 .

[Wishpig]

Lamnom wrote...

@Whispig

Well, if the fact he let himself to be imprisoned and starved to death doesn't tell you anything, then don't recruit him next time:)
But it tells me that he has regrets. And I am a Gray Warden. Not judge, not police, not templar whatsoever... And I am in a kind of desperate situation.

Don't get me wrong, it's a game, so frankly I recruit him because I can. But I don't think it makes any sense story wise. Your desperate, but at the same time you don't turn around and bend over for a known killer of innocents.

Your a Gray Warden whose job it is to protect people from the blight, having someone at your back who you can't in anyway or form trust or even guess their reasoning and is a known killer, is sure a dumb descision.

I mean look at it. EVeryone in your part freaks out if you recruit Zevran. Some even get pissed. But at least Zevran explains himself, explains why he could be usefull, and gives you valuable info. Sten just tells you he killed innocent people. Makes no sense to me. ya you need help, but you don't need a sword in your back either.

Modifié par Wishpig, 24 février 2010 - 05:14 .

[Lamnom]

Whispig



Maybe you cannot understand it, because you feel like you wouldn't recruit him for real. But I maybe would. I can see your point and from one point of view, u're right. but from another... Gray Warden's fate is to fight the blight by any means. And a man, that let himself to be imprisoned without a fight for crimes he did is not likely to trick you just to free himself... He shows regrets during your first conversation (in his own way:) ).

[Wishpig]

Lamnom wrote...

Whispig

Maybe you cannot understand it, because you feel like you wouldn't recruit him for real. But I maybe would. I can see your point and from one point of view, u're right. but from another... Gray Warden's fate is to fight the blight by any means. And a man, that let himself to be imprisoned without a fight for crimes he did is not likely to trick you just to free himself... He shows regrets during your first conversation (in his own way:) ).

Perhaps your right... and ultimatly it's a smart thing to recruit him. I would be so opposed to it in real life though... I mean a giant, locked in a cage for killing innocents, which he readily admits... he would strike me as far far far far more of a risk then a help.

[Lamnom]

Yeah, I know what u mean. and you are also right. depends on from what point u're looking at it:)