236 réponses à ce sujet

[Lusitanum]

Lamnom wrote...

Exactly..He betraied Cailan becouse he
thought that Cailan's doing is threat to Ferelden and its freedom for
Cailen was willing to call for reinforcments from Orlais. And that
Loghain considered as unacceptable. 

Caillan was going to call for reinforcements from Orlais for the eventuality that the Grey Wardens weren't enough to defeat the Darkspawn at Ostagar. So, Loghain's response to that is... let the Darkspawn win so that you get the Grey Wardens and your King killed, sacrificing an easy victory and ensuring that you will need reinforcements (possibly from Orlais) to defeat them on harder battles?

That doesn't make any sense...

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Bah, all this Loghain love is sickening.

No. This wasn't
anything to do with saving his country. Sure, he told himself this
during the day and used it to justify his actions to the nobles around.


His actions were his final revenge. He had been waiting for
years. His bitterness towards Maric because Loghain was in love with
Rowhan (sp). His anger at Maric for his elven dalliances. And finally,
his chance to kill Calian. Calian, who was the symbol of what Maric got
and Loghain didn't. And Calain, whose birth killed his mother (if I am
remember correctly), the woman who Loghain always loved and could never
have.

Loghain is a Lancelot without the moral rectitude to
remove himself from the equation. His not a patriot, he is not a hero
by the time the game starts. He is a small, bitter man, who finally
sees his opportunity to get revenge on his dead 'friend' for having
everything that Loghain wanted.

Some hero.

OK, then why did he served faithfully by his side all those years after that? Why was he so adamant to Maric not risking his life by going with the Grey Wardens, almost to the point where it looked like he would go so far as to try and prevent his King from leaving? Why was he on the verge of hitting Maric if need be to prevent him from going? Why would he much rather go himself on that suicide mission instead of sending the man that he supposedly wants dead? Why did he kept trying to break Maric out of his stupor after Rowan's death so that he would be a better king and father to Caillan? Why did he sent 2/3 of Ferelden's army to save his country from a serious threat while the remaining 1/3 searched for Maric? Why?

Modifié par Lusitanum, 24 février 2010 - 05:55 .

[Zusia]

Didn't read the whole thread but Sten is really funny once you get your approval lvl raised with him. Dry humor is the best.Dealing with him you just have to remain dry and to the point you can't hurt his feelings and he appreciates blunt answers. As far as survival goes I had a hard time with him to for about a minute then I geared him up and he rocked. Yes I am a Sten fan Ogrhen on the other hand I would have liked to fed to the broodmother.

Modifié par Zusia, 24 février 2010 - 06:14 .

[Tikkidew]

This is how I see it, Sten is the most trust worthy because he never lies to the PC, once.

- Alistar hides the fact he's a Prince and King cailan's brother.
- Leliana is pretty much full of s*** from the get go. A cloistered sister who fights?
- Morrigan cannot be trusted what so ever.
- Sten has no reservations telling you he murdered an entire family.

I've only played the Dwarf Nobel, Human Nobel and Mage Origins, but in every case I've been lied to and betrayed. So meeting a guy like Sten, who's blunt and feels shame for his actions, I actually thought he was the most trust worthy besides Alistair.

[Dansayshi]

Im actually playing through currently using him modded, and the dialogue is actually pretty funny, him and lelianna get on well.

[Gabey5]

ending the blight is redemption enough the family he killed would die of darkspawn anyway without his help

[Wishpig]

Gabey5 wrote...

ending the blight is redemption enough the family he killed would die of darkspawn anyway without his help

Actually I didn't pick him up in my first playthrough and I fought off the blight equally as well without him

[maxernst]

Tikkidew wrote...

This is how I see it, Sten is the most trust worthy because he never lies to the PC, once.

- Alistar hides the fact he's a Prince and King cailan's brother.
- Leliana is pretty much full of s*** from the get go. A cloistered sister who fights?
- Morrigan cannot be trusted what so ever.
- Sten has no reservations telling you he murdered an entire family.

I've only played the Dwarf Nobel, Human Nobel and Mage Origins, but in every case I've been lied to and betrayed. So meeting a guy like Sten, who's blunt and feels shame for his actions, I actually thought he was the most trust worthy besides Alistair.

But that's based on what you know of him after recruiting him.  At the time of recruitment:

Alistair is a Grey Warden
Morrigan (and Flemeth) have just saved your ass and given you the treaties
Wynne is a circle mage, so she has a vested interest in helping you save the circle
Oghren is looking for Branka (and has information on her whereabouts that you don't), and so are you

So you have good reason to think these four characters will help you, at least for a time (well, not wynne, if you've sided with the templars). 

These three, in my opinion, you have no good reason to trust.  And while you need help, going into a fight with people you can't trust may be riskier than going into combat without them.  I haven't played Stone Prisoner, so I can't comment on Shale.

Leliana:  Is she nuts?  She seems harmless and has skills that my PC didn't, but you don't have much reason to trust her.
Sten:  The only thing you know about him is not a positive.
Zevran:  He just tried to kill you.

[XOGHunter246]

you don't have a reason to trust Morrigan!

[LadyDamodred]

Wishpig wrote...
Did something terrible... you say that like it's a side note. He killed innocent farmers who saved him. Of course you have a reason to recruit, but you don't recruit a person like Sten knowing literally nothing about them. That puts you and your friends in extreme risk, more so then charging into a group of 30 darkspawn. Sure a fella whose good with a sword (and you don't even know how good he is at fighting) is helpfull, but no one's helpfull to you if your dead.

Recruiting Sten, is like you going to deathrow and freeing a known killer to protect you because he's good with a gun. Furthermore it's like asking this person to help you... after they refuse to really talk to you.

It's insane and just asking to have your head chopped off when your not looking.

I don't mean to say it as a side note.  I think the deathrow analogy is inaccurate, but I'll go with it.  If you are involved in a war and fighting for your life and you come across someone capable who can help you, do you take them?  Even if they have committed an unspeakable crime, look at how you find him.  He waited for the authorities, willingly gave himself up without a fight and submitted to a torturous death.  My character does not excuse his actions.  Nothing can do that.  The best he can do is either see out this sentence, or find some other way to make amends.  To my character, it's clear that he believes he deserves death.  In that case, why not use him?  That to me is not the same as going to death row and freeing a Dahmer or Bundy or Mason.  My character takes risks with just about every party member she gains.  She doesn't see Sten as inherently more risky than Zevran. In fact, less so.  But she believes there are mitigating circumstances and that at the moment, she will take help where she can get it.

[Morroian]

Wishpig wrote...

Morroian wrote...

If I had confirmation that Sten was actually guilty of murder before recruiting him I probably wouldn't, but it was still very ambiguous at that point unlike say Loghain who by the time you get the opportunity to recruit you knew was in league with the person who murdered your family, betrayed you and the king at Ostagar and tried to kill you. Once I found out Sten was in fact guilty I had some sort of a relationship with him and he was clearly on the path to redemption.

I thought he strait out said he did it, and it sure wasn't a lie.

It came across to me like there was a lot more to the story than what he was saying.

[Zusia]

I think alot of folks discount the Warden philosophy of "whatever it takes". Fine to RP the story line however you wish it's "your" game . To me it's more of a scenario where grey or "evil lite" wars with evil, as opposed to the band of proverbial good guys against the big darkness. A little judicious application of situational ethics and all is right with the world. Aside from that Sten has great party banter when he gets going, " How strong are your teeth" how do you beat that little exchange?

Modifié par Zusia, 25 février 2010 - 01:03 .

[Kimarous]

From my character's point of view, he follows a basic philosophy of "Stop the Blight at whatever the cost" (an ideal he picked up from Duncan as far back as his Circle days). Granted, he isn't a complete jerk about it and has turned down some "advantages" before (see: destroyed the Anvil), but he isn't one to turn down allies. When picking up Sten, he seemed capable enough, although I didn't actually give him a blade until I got to know him better (see: left him in camp). Besides, he doesn't fear betrayal because A) he tries to maintain good relationships with everyone, and with my leet arcane powers and allies, I could easily put down any insurrection.

[DraconisCombine]

Why not?Hes strong and big enough to hide behind.Hes isnt exactly talkative but gets to the point.Hes also probably one of the more difficult characters to get favor with.Besides hes just a big softie anyways!LOL!

[Phoenix Swordsinger]

For those of you having a hard time recruiting Sten. You say from a RPing point of view you can't see a reason. I see modern day values and morality leeking through. Try to emerse yourself in the time period of the game. Also the surcomestances. It makes it a little easier to understand.

[Lamnom]

@Lusitanum

Loghain still has all his men, and Arl Howle's men... Also, his plan to unite the land under his command (naive, I know). U see, he might be hero and great general, but Loghain is still human. Yes, to you it doesn't make sence. but try to imagine you are in his skin with his opinions and thoughts. From his perspective, it was a perfect plan how to get rid of King (which he thought was threath to the country with his doing) and Gray Wardens Which he didn't trust. Ofc it wasn't the best plan he has ever had, that's why it failed. that's why Banns refused to unite and were readyt o got o civil war. Ofcourse that's my opinion. Loghain is a character, and no two ppl will have the very same opinion on someone... his true intentions may be known only to David Gaider

Modifié par Lamnom, 25 février 2010 - 07:56 .

[packardbell]

As Riordan said anyone who has the skill are viable to be allies of the grey wardens, their background be damned.

[spottyblanket]

Di it the Firefly way: Mal recruits Jayne, a crimminal who is very likely to stab him in the back when the next best (money deal) comes wafting along, in fact Jayne does stab him in the back--numerous times. But he has talent, and he is a big damn strong dude. The kind you wanted pointed AT YOUR ENEMY and not at you.

[ejikvkaske]

Lamnom wrote...

@Lusitanum

Loghain still has all his men, and Arl Howle's men... Also, his plan to unite the land under his command (naive, I know). U see, he might be hero and great general, but Loghain is still human. Yes, to you it doesn't make sence. but try to imagine you are in his skin with his opinions and thoughts. From his perspective, it was a perfect plan how to get rid of King (which he thought was threath to the country with his doing) and Gray Wardens Which he didn't trust. Ofc it wasn't the best plan he has ever had, that's why it failed. that's why Banns refused to unite and were readyt o got o civil war. Ofcourse that's my opinion. Loghain is a character, and no two ppl will have the very same opinion on someone... his true intentions may be known only to David Gaider

I agree with that. The codex entrees you find in RtO suggest that Cailan was getting overly friendly with the Empress of Orlais, while Eamon mentions that Anora is likely barren and hits that she needs to be replaced. Loghain wanted to protect his daughter and his country.

Keep in mind that the Ferelden troops lost at Ostagar were all loyal to Cailan. From Loghain's perspective, he got rid of a trecherous king and his army in one move. The Grey Wardens were simply collateral damage, a sacrifice he was willing to make.

[spottyblanket]

Anora is barren? 0_0 I had no idea...man, nobody is ever going to get an heir to the throne. Connor is a mage, the female human noble warden can't really have babies...Alister's half sister is our only hope!

[Ulicus]

Sten is a great character. Fantastic, actually... but I see where the OP is coming from. For certain characters (not arrogant ones who think they can defeat everyone and everything), recruiting him is tricky. Not because they don't think: "This guy could really come in useful" but because they simply don't know if they cant trust him. Arguing "well, he didn't resist arrest so he clearly isn't dangerous to you" doesn't really work... it just makes taking him along even more of a gamble, since you don't know if he's going to fly into a rage and kill you then feel sorry afterwards as well.

When I finally get around to the game where I play "as I would in reality"... he'll probably get left behind. Which is going to be really hard.

Modifié par Ulicus, 25 février 2010 - 10:39 .

[Dansayshi]

Hes a big softie who plays with kittens and loves cookies, whats not to like?

[Derengard]

Ulicus wrote...Arguing "well, he didn't resist arrest so he clearly isn't dangerous to you" doesn't really work... it just makes taking him along even more of a gamble, since you don't know if he's going to fly into a rage and kill you then feel sorry afterwards as well.

Yes, but the fact that he thought he didn't deserve to get out of the cage to fight for a good cause till his death, makes this all slightly more stable than "feeling sorry".

I understand the reservations, because I was a little surprised at seeing how little reason the game actually offers. But if those reservations lead to leave him there and go, or to let him out, probably depends on how strictly you are immersed in a certain roleplaying mode that is based on rather bringing your thinking into the fantasy as opposed to reconnoiter the rules of the fantasy world and deal with the relations in the most "practical" way.
If he was a ****** and if the murder was an act of cruelty with no potential cultural imprinting as part of the reason, noone would have let him out. It remains at least ambivalent all the way through.

Modifié par Derengard, 25 février 2010 - 01:09 .

[Ulicus]

Derengard wrote...

Ulicus wrote...Arguing "well, he didn't resist arrest so he clearly isn't dangerous to you" doesn't really work... it just makes taking him along even more of a gamble, since you don't know if he's going to fly into a rage and kill you then feel sorry afterwards as well.

Yes, but the fact that he thought he didn't deserve to get out of the cage to fight for a good cause till his death, makes this all slightly more stable than "feeling sorry".

I was being flippant -- the gist of my point stands, I believe.  The Warden does not know anything about Sten other than the fact that he murdered a bunch of people, calmly gave himself up and that he appears to harbour genuine regret. That makes him more unpredictable, not less.

At the end of the day, unless I knew a great deal about Qunari culture, swords=soul, etc at the time I first encountered him - which would give me the right sort of context - I would never, ever, let Sten out of his cage.  No matter how much I might want to.

The only reassurance is that Sten's willingness to leave with me would suggest that he, at least, doesn't fear going berserk.... but it's still a massive gamble and something of a reckless decision to make. Luckily, most of my characters are reckless, so they don't miss out. But when I get around to my "what would I do?" character... he will, sadly, be left behind.

[Feraele]

Ulicus wrote...

Derengard wrote...

Ulicus wrote...Arguing "well, he didn't resist arrest so he clearly isn't dangerous to you" doesn't really work... it just makes taking him along even more of a gamble, since you don't know if he's going to fly into a rage and kill you then feel sorry afterwards as well.

Yes, but the fact that he thought he didn't deserve to get out of the cage to fight for a good cause till his death, makes this all slightly more stable than "feeling sorry".

I was being flippant -- the gist of my point stands, I believe.  The Warden does not know anything about Sten other than the fact that he murdered a bunch of people, calmly gave himself up and that he appears to harbour genuine regret. That makes him more unpredictable, not less.

At the end of the day, unless I knew a great deal about Qunari culture, swords=soul, etc at the time I first encountered him - which would give me the right sort of context - I would never, ever, let Sten out of his cage.  No matter how much I might want to.

The only reassurance is that Sten's willingness to leave with me would suggest that he, at least, doesn't fear going berserk.... but it's still a massive gamble and something of a reckless decision to make. Luckily, most of my characters are reckless, so they don't miss out. But when I get around to my "what would I do?" character... he will, sadly, be left behind.

True enough..the first time I encountered Sten in the cage..I left him to the darkspawn to die.    But second run-through I got curious about him......and I am glad I did.    Now he's been in every play-through, because I think he's a very interesting companion.   

I even like his comments where..he estimates how long the battle took hehe.   Sometimes he likes it sometimes he states..."that shouldn't have taken as long as it did" ...which means I better pull up my socks.  lol

[Thanatos45]

Well, I've just started a city elf berserker who has a hatred for humans so she wouldn't have a problem freeing him. First, he killed humans (at least that's what I assume), so she wouldn't care about that, second, by freeing him she goes against the chantry, which are also humans and holier-than-thou ***es on top of that. In fact, I think the only correct in-character response for her is to actually free him and take him along, or even free him and expecting nothing in return.