RangerSG wrote...
1) I would say that this topic does the usual, "If I reduce everything to its lowest common denominator, everything can be shown to be the same" routine. That's rubbish, and it effectively can only be done if you came to the game with a pre-conceived notion that this would be the same.
I don't know about the pre-conceived notion part, but I agree with your main point. You see this frequently on the forums -- people generalizing plots or characters to the point where they fit into categories, and then claiming that they share too many similarities... while ignoring any differences that don't fit their hypothesis. I get it, and I'm all for desiring something a little different, but I don't find the insight offered by such comparisons particularly profound.
3) I thought Planescape: Torment was a poor video game. Its pacing was turgid, its story was uninspiring, and its hero was (to me) unsympathetic, so I had no desire to play the game. It would've been ok to read. But as a game? Nah. And it also sold about half its copies after it was officially 'off-market' because of word of mouth from BG fans. By that time, it was already bargain-binned and written off as a loss by Interplay (in fact, this is pretty much when the Interplay death-spiral began). Mask of the Betrayer was interesting. But to say it's a "completely different story." Erm...not so much. By saving yourself, you pretty much ensure you save Rasheman. So it's a classic variant of the Heros Quest, and it's necessary for everyone you do the quest.
I thought Planescape: Torment was a brilliant story, but I agree (and I imagine its creators would, as well) that it's not above criticism. That said, I don't think anyone's talking about the quality of its gameplay but the presentation of its story -- which I would agree was quite different. I've listened to Chris talk about this and his goal, in fact, was to turn every fantasy trope on its ear in Torment. Maybe that made it too different to be successful? That's arguable-- hindsight is always 20/20 when it comes to commercial success, and in this case it could have been the marketing or timing as much as the nature of the story, but I can definitely see why Torment would be so favored by those who are
oh so tired of fantasy tropes beyond simply how good its story was.
5) This brings up the final point. You can point at any piece of literature and say, "It's using (insert trope)! Oh, I've seen that so many times. It's just like (insert movie x)! Why can't they do anything original!" As Jim Butcher would say, the difference between a trope and a cliche is how its used.
I think the internet version of this is the one Penny Arcade mentioned: "The difference between a trope and a cliche is how much I like it."
All literature and every author uses tropes, often consciously. The originality comes in how they get spun, subverted and orchestrated. To be perfectly honest, I'm sure someone read The Iliad and shouted, "I've heard this before!" If your standard of originality is "whole cloth tropeless writing" feel free to try to do it. I'm sure before you get 10 pages you'll have something that any part-time reader of TV Tropes could identify parts in.
A trope isn't a bad thing. It becomes a cliche when its used so generically that one cannot avoid identifying it with the stock source. But all literature uses tropes and saying "Bioware needs to do different." Erm...the problem *might* be you're bored of the fantasy genre. That said, every other genre will have tropes as well. So good luck with that hunt for whole-cloth originality.
Well said.
I always enjoy when people link to TVTropes as proof of a cliche -- when, in fact, that site is simply a massive list of common themes. I don't think it's possible to create any work of fiction without hitting on a whole bunch of these, nor do I think it's particularly a bad thing. That said, I think an examination of common tropes can be a useful exercise. Abandoning the Hero's Quest entirely may not be in the cards -- we tell heroic tales, and that's not going to change anytime soon -- but there's nothing wrong with stepping back and asking "How can we do this a little differently?" I won't ever agree that the
point is to make it different, however, or that the audience we should be seeking to satisfy are the jaded few who are bored by their own over-exposure.
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And since this thread has already gone into spoiler territory, I'm moving it over to the proper forum.
Modifié par David Gaider, 24 février 2010 - 04:07 .
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