83 réponses à ce sujet

[Valarioth]

Let me preface this with saying I've immensely enjoyed every Bioware game to date, numerous times.

That being said, has anyone noticed how every game has the same formula?  This is a bit simplified, but...

 Unlikely hero, humble beginnings, the great evil bad guy is exposed early and does something to impact the hero.  Hero must gather allies / an army and defeat evil bad guy.  Sprinkle in companion interaction, conversation options and sidequests, it's a Bioware game

I won't do the work for you, but if you think about each Bioware RPG, they have all followed that format, and each one has been wildly successful and enjoyable.

When do you think that formula will become stale?  Personally, I don't know how many more stories I can play with that "hero's journey" archetype.

Modifié par Valarioth, 23 février 2010 - 04:53 .

[Curlain]

Well the Hero's Journey has been around for millennia and is the feature of our oldest tales and shows no sign of dying out now anymore it did a hundred years ago. So I suspect that this story architype will remain around for centuries to come, as it seems to strike a deep cord with humanity.

So yep, I think any formula that uses 'the Hero's Journey' will remain successful if written well

Modifié par Curlain, 23 février 2010 - 05:01 .

[Thermorium]

99% of all RPG's have this formula, get over it

[Loerwyn]

This is gonna be hard without spoiling too much:

BioWare took the standard Fantasy setting and have turned it on their head. Instead of one bad guy, we have two. They've taken the standard fantasy Dwarves and changed it quite dramatically, and the whole world of Thedas (or at least Ferelden) is a lot darker than you would expect in a fantasy game - Even the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.



Unlikely heroes, generally humble beginnings (exempting the Noble origins)... They're common themes in fantasy and you just either block it out or get used to it.

[Matshelge]

Stale? You do know this formula is around 2500 years old (as far as we can tell) right? Chances are, won't change anytime soon.

[Valarioth]

I understand that these stories are common, but I was just curious if anyone else felt Bioware were getting repetitive.

And I'm not being negative to dragon age or other Bioware games, I've played and loved them all.

Modifié par Valarioth, 23 février 2010 - 05:04 .

[hexaligned]

It's not Like Bioware invented it. It appeals to something in our nature, and sells videogames and really lots of forms of media, better than any other premise.

Which isn't to say it doesn't get a bit predictable after 5000 iterations. I fully support you (or anyone) in creating a new paradigm for humanity that will speak and survive as well though. (not being sarcastic)

Modifié par relhart, 23 février 2010 - 05:08 .

[DargonBlak]

i think you're being a bit unfair; it seems everyone else is agreeing that it's not just "Bioware" but the entire concept of fiction.

i'd be hard pressed to point out one of the hundreds of sci fi / fantasy novels that i've read that doesn't follow the same basic theme.

i suppose they could try a concept about "ordinary life", but i don't think many people would read the book or play the game about Seinfeld... (ordinary, everyday life was the premise)..

and before anyone chimes in about "thats where the money is" ... we have to understand that "ordinary life" in and of itself doesn't have much of an entertainment value... there has to be internal and external conflict, and unusual circumstances...

any of the great movies follow similar general plot concepts...

so it's a bit unfair to call it "Bioware".

[Eurypterid]

Thermorium wrote...

99% of all RPG's have this formula, get over it

Why is there always at least one person that feels compelled to post something rude? The guy is only looking for a discussion. You'll note he never insulted the game or BioWare, and in fact explicitly stated BioWare games have been 'wildy successful and enjoyable'. Even if he didn't praise the games there's still no need to be rude to him.

[Matshelge]

Eurypterid wrote...

Thermorium wrote...

99% of all RPG's have this formula, get over it

Why is there always at least one person that feels compelled to post something rude? The guy is only looking for a discussion. You'll note he never insulted the game or BioWare, and in fact explicitly stated BioWare games have been 'wildy successful and enjoyable'. Even if he didn't praise the games there's still no need to be rude to him.

Well, to be fair, the OP question had very reducing arguments for why every bioware game had the same story.

It would be much like someone walking into a Theatere and complaining about how all these Michael Bay movies just contain action, or how M. Night Shamalan movies are just a twist.

For fans of Mr. Bay or Mr. Shamalan, this is not really a qustion to start a discussion with.

Perhaps the OP should have presented some other storyarch in another RPG that he would like to see BioWare tell, and less of "I play lots of BioWare games, but this story is getting old, I wish they did something else" as this is a forum thread we see over and over again.

[DraconisCombine]

Yep.The same formula that works AND makes money.Lets face it there is no bigger market than the fantasy market.Take a look around, i have.Whether its MMOs or single player games,the fantasy genre is where its at.Other areas have their niche no doubt.Ive got quite a few ideas floating around that i like to subtly inject into some of my favourite games and companies.

[Mlai00]

Unlikely hero, humble beginnings, the great evil bad guy is exposed early and does something to impact the hero. Hero must gather allies / an army and defeat evil bad guy. Sprinkle in companion interaction, conversation options and sidequests, it's a Bioware game

Last time I checked...

(1) Half the heroes in this game have higher-than-humble beginnings.

(2) The great big bad guy didn't do anything to the heroes in the beginning.

(3) I thought the cliche was "Only one man can stop xxxxxxx!" So now it's also cliche to gather an army?

(4) So... not supposed to have friends, not supposed to talk to anyone, and not supposed to right the wrongs of the land? What exactly would you have an adventurer do, farm?

[Shadowwot]

I read an article discussing the same thing. I even posted my idea to change things up a bit although I didn't get many bites someone has brought it up: I've been reading some articles recently on older RPG and BioWares formula and people complaining that in every game you just "saved the universe... again...":



http://www.incgamers...s-getting-stale



I love BioWare games, but I also really liked NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer and the whole fight in the underworld to stop the injustice of the wall of souls and restoring your characters soul. I completely loved DAO but I personally would love to see another game akin to Wizardry 4 where you are no longer the Hero but the villain of the story (For those unaware you play the villain from Wizardry 1 and use skeletons and monsters as your army while fighting Player's actual characters that were submitted from the first game). I do not think that you could do this as your main title because most people prefer to play the Hero and it would be a harder sell, however BioWare has everything at their fingertips to make it an amazing expansion.



I was thinking that your character could be either The Architect (depending on how The Awakening turns out) or Morrigan's Freak Baby and use armies of monsters with you and you lead your attack against some kingdom. The Heroes you would be fighting would be characters chosen from everyone's Player Profile - So we would be fighting the actual Characters people have been playing DAO with. Just throw in a cool story and I think it would be a great idea for an expansion.

[Cuthlan]

I love peanut butter. Sure, I'll eat a ham sandwich, and sometimes I'll embelish my peanut butter with some jelly or something else.



But peanut butter is great. It doesn't need to be changed or improved, I still like it as much now as I did when I was a kid.

[Mordaedil]

I did kinda figure this out after Knights of the Old Republic.



But personally, I think that formulae makes Bioware games "safe". You kinda know what you're going to get. Like if you got an Origins game named Ultima, you'd know you were the avatar ready to be a douchebag to people.

[Tsuga C]

Mordaedil wrote...
But personally, I think that formulae makes Bioware games "safe".

Bingo!  If BioWare was still an up-and-coming cRPG maker, you might expect them to push the envelope and take risks to a much greater extent than today.  They're an in-house studio of EA and their days of "no guts, no glory" are behind them.  The games they create might be larger and more polished than games from this or that company, but deviating from the formula is likely something they'll leave to others.

[AlanC9]

Well, let's run down the list....

 Unlikely hero, humble beginnings,

I'm not at all sure humble beginnings applies to DA. Two of the DA starts are outright nobles, and magi don't really count either, do they?

As for unlikely, it depends on what you consider a likely hero. Although to some extent this is captured by the Grey Wardens' less-than-beloved condition at the beginning. I don't see anything particularly unlikely about the ME1 hero.

Another question is whether the game can subvert the whole concept of the hero in the first place. The Longest Journey (not an RPG) did this to some extent. Planescape:Torment too. But it's difficult because there's no way to avoid the player's primary role in shaping the game-world. Personally, I'd love a CRPG equivalent of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosencrantz_and_Guildenstern_Are_Dead, but I think it would bomb in the marketplace.

(First time I tried the new link functionality on these boards. Let's see how that worked.)

Note that Bioware's KotOR is an exception to this formula in certain crucial respects.

the great evil bad guy is exposed early and does something to impact the hero.  Hero must gather allies / an army and defeat evil bad guy.  

Well, it's difficult to avoid having an ultimate bad guy. Some of the Ultimas did; PS:T again, in a sense, and some early RPGs like M&M 1. If you don't have someone or something to defeat, it's hard to give the game a satisfying ending.

Exposing the ultimate bad guy early isn't always the case in Bioware games. NWN1, SoU, and HotU: nope, all 3. ME1, not exactly.

As for having this bad guy affect the PC, that gives focus to the whole affair. Take Morrowind; that bad guy didn't see very threatening, because he isn't threatening, except in a very, very long-term sense.

 Personally, I don't know how many more stories I can play with that "hero's journey" archetype.

Your alternative?

[Valarioth]

Shadowwot wrote...

I read an article discussing the same thing. I even posted my idea to change things up a bit although I didn't get many bites someone has brought it up: I've been reading some articles recently on older RPG and BioWares formula and people complaining that in every game you just "saved the universe... again...":

http://www.incgamers...s-getting-stale

Great article, it basically says (more precisely) what I was trying to get at with my original post.  It would just be nice for an RPG use a different story arch, compared to the "monomyth"--as the article puts it--that is seen in almost every RPG.

I would come up with ideas, but each one would be shot down with the arguement "it wouldn't sell", which is sadly very true in this generation of gaming.  I understand that companies will choose the safe and guaranteed successful option in game development, but theoretical discussion for a new direction of RPG story archs is interesting to me.

[AlanC9]

Mlai00 wrote...
(3) I thought the cliche was "Only one man can stop xxxxxxx!" So now it's also cliche to gather an army?

To be fair, DA does end up with only Grey Wardens being able to finally stop the Blight. But this is set up in a reasonable manner. 

[AlanC9]

Valarioth wrote...
I would come up with ideas, but each one would be shot down with the arguement "it wouldn't sell", which is sadly very true in this generation of gaming.  I understand that companies will choose the safe and guaranteed successful option in game development, but theoretical discussion for a new direction of RPG story archs is interesting to me.

So post some ideas. Even if a company won't use them, a modder might.

[Jonp382]

Valarioth wrote...

Shadowwot wrote...

I read an article discussing the same thing. I even posted my idea to change things up a bit although I didn't get many bites someone has brought it up: I've been reading some articles recently on older RPG and BioWares formula and people complaining that in every game you just "saved the universe... again...":

http://www.incgamers...s-getting-stale

Great article, it basically says (more precisely) what I was trying to get at with my original post.  It would just be nice for an RPG use a different story arch, compared to the "monomyth"--as the article puts it--that is seen in almost every RPG.

I would come up with ideas, but each one would be shot down with the arguement "it wouldn't sell", which is sadly very true in this generation of gaming.  I understand that companies will choose the safe and guaranteed successful option in game development, but theoretical discussion for a new direction of RPG story archs is interesting to me.

I wish they would try a new story in a low-budget digital release. Leave all the complicated tech behind, just make it Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale level or maybe Braid. Braid was very successful in 2008/2009 and it didn't need a fancy engine that costs a million by itself. Though, Braid isn't an RPG. Still, with such a low development cost, and hopefully a market, they could probably return a profit and create a wider audience for such games.

[yodasmith00]

I think this game is just plain great the way it is.

[Schurge]

QUESTION TO THE OP:

What do you suggest they do?

[Schurge]

QUESTION TO THE OP:

What do you suggest they do?

[Schurge]

Unintentional double post.

Modifié par Schurge, 23 février 2010 - 07:14 .