83 réponses à ce sujet

[Matshelge]

Jonp382 wrote...

Valarioth wrote...

Shadowwot wrote...

I read an article discussing the same thing. I even posted my idea to change things up a bit although I didn't get many bites someone has brought it up: I've been reading some articles recently on older RPG and BioWares formula and people complaining that in every game you just "saved the universe... again...":

http://www.incgamers...s-getting-stale

Great article, it basically says (more precisely) what I was trying to get at with my original post.  It would just be nice for an RPG use a different story arch, compared to the "monomyth"--as the article puts it--that is seen in almost every RPG.

I would come up with ideas, but each one would be shot down with the arguement "it wouldn't sell", which is sadly very true in this generation of gaming.  I understand that companies will choose the safe and guaranteed successful option in game development, but theoretical discussion for a new direction of RPG story archs is interesting to me.

I wish they would try a new story in a low-budget digital release. Leave all the complicated tech behind, just make it Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale level or maybe Braid. Braid was very successful in 2008/2009 and it didn't need a fancy engine that costs a million by itself. Though, Braid isn't an RPG. Still, with such a low development cost, and hopefully a market, they could probably return a profit and create a wider audience for such games.

There is a problem with this. BioWare is a big company, they need to put food on the table for a lot of families. If they were to make the braid version of a RPG, where would the 3D Modeler guys get their paycheck from, how would they pay for that in-house VO recording studio they took up a loan to pay for? Would they need the 15-30 permanent writers that BioWare has on staff? (note, I don't know if they have a inhouse VO studio, nor if they have 30 permanent writers on staff)

BioWare has a sosial responsibility to make big games that make lots of money, so they can pay all the people they hired. Sure, they might knock off a sideproject, (see the Sonic DS game) but BioWare cannot, in any way, focus on a indie game, when they have 500 permanent people who are hired on their skill to make big games.

If these 500 people want to feed their families, they need BioWare to make big games, and not cater to the grognards who want a high res version of a 20 year old game.

[Thanateos]

You know, I'm perfectly prepared to be labelled fanboy, devotee or what ever else but here goes:

To me, Bioware is one of the few remaining companies in the games industry that is actually capable of telling a compelling and intriguing story.

They are one of the few remaining companies that I trust, strictly on their reputation and previous games, to craft a game that can entertain me for more than the standard 10hours a game lasts these days.

When I buy a Bioware game I know that I will have a game that will interest me from start to finish, a game that I want to play through more than once, a game that I will pick up and play years after it's been released when most other games end up gathering dust on the shelves.

For me, Bioware takes me back to how the games industry was 10-15 years ago. When the quality of a game, it's story, it's setting, the feel of the game, mattered so much more than the visuals.

I know that in that time it was a limitation. You could either have great graphics or a great story, because there wasn't room enough on the disk for both, but frankly there was just more oomph in those games.

That's what I feel when I hear of a new Bioware game, I know that I'll end up being the big hero saving the world, but along the way I'll have fun, I'll laugh, I'll find characters that even though I may not be similar to them in any way I will still be able to understand them, hell at times I've found myself shedding a tear because the story moves me so.

[UberuceIAm]

The limitation a developer has is that the character has to start a hell of a lot weaker than he, she or it finishes or you have gameplay that's going to be extremely repetitive.

[killingsheep24]

Uninspired inspiration!



The citys shall be brown and grey, the armour bland / or silly, the plot will be about evil monsters being evil led by EVIL.



Man I even wanted to kick Duncan in the balls for being so boring.

[AlanC9]

What colors would you prefer cities to be?

[Myusha]

Here's a question for you. Why does dang near every character have either armor or a weapon? It's so freaking overused and cliche!

[bobtheworm]

Being a comic book fan, pen and paper player, and gamer; The hardest thing is to find a motive. Why do your heroes go on the road. So do superpower people decide to protect rather than try to take over the world. What makes a farmer pick up a weapon and try to take down the local dragon.



The nice thing about DA:O is that each origin starts with a different motive. From revenge, to safely survive deep roads, to escaping justice, to surviving the taint. These are all goes reasons to go to Ostagar. After Ostagar the PC motives change from personal to national when they try to get avenge their fallen king and commander. Each motive makes sense and if put in real world situations would fall the same almost every single time.

[Dick Delaware]

Tsuga C wrote...

Mordaedil wrote...
But personally, I think that formulae makes Bioware games "safe".

Bingo!  If BioWare was still an up-and-coming cRPG maker, you might expect them to push the envelope and take risks to a much greater extent than today.  They're an in-house studio of EA and their days of "no guts, no glory" are behind them.  The games they create might be larger and more polished than games from this or that company, but deviating from the formula is likely something they'll leave to others.

I don't think EA is really relevant here. BioWare released Jade Empire and KotOR prior to being with EA, yet those games are hardly risky or unconventional  like say, Planescape: Torment. They're pretty generic in a lot of ways, actually. 

BioWare definitely uses the same formula in a lot of their games. The problem is not that they use it, the problem is that it is at times, too obvious. Get four star maps/ treaties /etc. Granted, in Dragon Age, they pulled it off well and you were given a plausible reason to go to four individual quest hubs (and also a special one in Haven) so it was a bit different, but at the root, it's the same mechanic.

Honestly, I have nothing against an RPG that's about an epic quest to save the world like Mass Effect and Dragon Age have been, it's just that it's nice to see a change of pace. However, I doubt we'll see that happening.

[vonFurious]

Bastilla= Morrigan
Mission= Leliana
Carth = Allistar
Hk-47= Shale
Jolee Bindo= Wynne
Canderous= Sten + Oghren
T-3M4= Dog

You= Don't Really Know Who You Are Until You Realize "Only You Can Save the Universe!"

Modifié par vonFurious, 24 février 2010 - 04:42 .

[empetus]

I think one of the main problems is most mainstream rpgs always have to be EPIC. In other words, you are always saving the world from evil. They think many people wouldn't like a plot that wasn't epic so you get the endless repetition. I would love to see a rpg made that does not have an epic story line. Maybe you are a low born adventurer and you are trying to find treasure and make your way in the world, while there is no great evil threatening anything. There could be quests with this theme in mind, where the story is more personal and not involving the world, but just the story of one adventurer as he explores the world. I tend to agree with the original post in terms of the story line getting stale. Why do I always have to save the world and why does the story line always have to be epic? It would be nice to see a smidgen of originality and creativity in the genre every once in a while. I dare say it would not be impossible to do so.

[Jonp382]

Matshelge wrote...

There is a problem with this. BioWare is a big company, they need to put food on the table for a lot of families. If they were to make the braid version of a RPG, where would the 3D Modeler guys get their paycheck from, how would they pay for that in-house VO recording studio they took up a loan to pay for? Would they need the 15-30 permanent writers that BioWare has on staff? (note, I don't know if they have a inhouse VO studio, nor if they have 30 permanent writers on staff)

They would get their paychecks from Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2, of course. They've got many teams and people. I wish they could divert some away from the DLC/iPhone games and etc and put it on something way cooler. Although, that wouldn't make as much money so it does seem pretty unlikely.

BioWare has a sosial responsibility to make big games that make lots of money, so they can pay all the people they hired. Sure, they might knock off a sideproject, (see the Sonic DS game) but BioWare cannot, in any way, focus on a indie game, when they have 500 permanent people who are hired on their skill to make big games.

I don't think you know understand an indie game is. An indie game is made by an independent developer ie BioWare or Id before they were acquired by EA and ZeniMax respectively. They're no longer indie so they wouldn't be making an 'indie' game.

If these 500 people want to feed their families, they need BioWare to make big games, and not cater to the grognards who want a high res version of a 20 year old game.

While I'm sure there are plenty that simply want old game x high-resolution version and would pay for it, that's not what this topic is about, as that would be consistent with the 'same ol formula'.

[Dick Delaware]

There are two excellent games that involve personal stories rather than an a quest to fight a great evil. Planescape: Torment and the NWN 2 expansion, Mask of the Betrayer did this, and they were really interesting and refreshing.

[Spitz6860]

i made a similar thread a while ago, most people seem to like things the way they are.

[Dick Delaware]

vonFurious wrote...

Bastilla= Morrigan
Mission= Leliana
Carth = Allistar
Hk-47= Shale
Jolee Bindo= Wynne
Canderous= Sten
T-3M4= Dog

You= Don't Really Know Who You Are Until You Realize "Only You Can Save the Universe!"

To be fair, Dragon Age does manage to subvert this a bit. You aren't really some scion of destiny. You  got recruited, made off with your life because Duncan was in the right place at the right time, then you and Alistair were at the Tower of Ishal while the rest of the Grey Wardens were out getting butchered by darkspawn at Ostagar. Really, the only reason you two made it is because you two were the greenest recruits in all of Ferelden, and as a result, were given a relatively low-risk task by Duncan. In fact, it's fair to say you're alive because you suck.

While I agree with you that the characters fit into established oft-used archetypes, they are far, far better developed than KotOR's. Also, they manage to subvert the cliches a lot too. Leliana is a lot less naive than she lets on, Morrigan subverts the whole Defrosting Ice Queen thing because she has an agenda of her own, Sten never tells stories about past battles and is far more standoff-ish than Canderous, etc.

[Sidrat2009]

I think the OP is taking a too broad view of his characters story.



Reign in the focus closer to the character(s) life story and it will provide itself with motive, narrow escapes, luck, judgement, even more luck and of course most importantly of all being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sure so the story is similar to everyone else, the point is that it's YOUR story and it should be personal and emotive.



Even if the scope wasn't so epic and it was just about a family having to get the cotton harvest in after a heavy rainfall before the whole crop was ruined (The Painted House) it doesn't make it any less important to the characters who when done right, pull you in to their world of fears, hopes and anxieties.



Besides that I think there's only seven basic genres and they've all been done before so it's going to be might implausible to come with something that means anything to a human audience that they can feel a part of.

[zaim298]

Mlai00

What exactly would you have an adventurer do, farm?

I choked on my milk...

[urielpie]

everyone knows neverwinter nights was a completely different formula. I can't remember the last I walked through a plagued city that had a brothel open.

[Realmzmaster]

The big selling point is how well the story is told. Gamers will continue to play the Hero's Journey depending on how well crafted the story.



You will see variations on the theme, but in the end gamers want to be the hero that saves the world. We know what the destination is, but how and if we get there is the journey. Gamers want a well crafted journey.

[Maria Caliban]

Valarioth wrote...
Unlikely hero, humble beginnings...

Except for the mage, human noble, and dwarven noble.

...the great evil bad guy is exposed early and does something to impact the hero...

Can you give me a game or story where the villian does not impact the hero in any way?

Hero must gather allies / an army and defeat evil bad guy.

One point.

Sprinkle in companion interaction, conversation options and sidequests, it's a Bioware game

How totally formulistic to have RPG elements like companion interaction, conversation options, and sidequests in an RPG. Like a typical BioWare game, they also have attribute scores, inventory, and combat. Shame on you, BioWare.

[EvilIguana966]

Most interesting stories end up being broadly similar because in order to be interesting they have to involve certain fixed elements. There will be a bad guy(s), there will be a good guy(s), and there will be a conflict between them of great consequence to the world around them. The reason for this is that it is a common element of human history. Good fights against evil, and the success or failure often hinges upon the actions of a few heroic or villainous figures. Look back 65 years at Winston Churchill and Adolph Hitler. Though modern warfare pretty much keeps heads of state completely out of direct battle, it was still an epic battle between two extremely consequential people with countless followers, and the stakes were inconceivably high. Or if you want to focus a bit closer to the actual fighting, how about Bernard Montgomery and Erwin Rommel. Again two impressive personalities in a battle that ultimately determines the fate of the world. This story is common because it is a great story of humanity.

[DarthParametric]

empetus wrote...

I would love to see a rpg made that does not have an epic story line. Maybe you are a low born adventurer and you are trying to find treasure and make your way in the world, while there is no great evil threatening anything. There could be quests with this theme in mind, where the story is more personal and not involving the world, but just the story of one adventurer as he explores the world.

You'll likely never see something like that because, frankly, it would be boring as hell. I don't need to play a game about some peon struggling to make a quid. I live that dream every day. The hero's journey archetype is not going away. Long after EA has discarded Bioware's withered husk, there will still be games (and movies and books) that use the same tropes, because that's what makes for compelling fantasy.

[ransompendragon]

The only elements I get tired of are skeletons/zombies and the like. Although I think the demons are done pretty well in this game. My favorite enemies are the true humanoids (meaning people, not undead).

But I will keep coming back for the "sword and sorcery" story every time.

[AlanC9]

Dick Delaware wrote...
There are two excellent games that involve personal stories rather than an a quest to fight a great evil. Planescape: Torment and the NWN 2 expansion, Mask of the Betrayer did this, and they were really interesting and refreshing.

Of course, both of those were still about fighting an evil. It just wasn't a huge, destroy-the-world kind of evil. But we're still talking about thousands dead.

You could even make a case for BG1 falling into this category (since the bad guy's plan wasn't likely to work). BG2 maybe not, since he might have brought it off, and was doing a heck of a lot of collateral damage anyway.

[Dick Delaware]

Evil Iguana, that simplifies things to a great deal. In great stories, there is a lot of moral ambiguity. A story of good against evil destroys a lot of the nuances that exist in reality. To highlight your example of WWII, it was hardly a fight between good guys and and bad guys. Remember, the Allies annihilated Dresden, dropped a nuke on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Russians were capable of some terrifying cruelty.