83 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

empetus wrote...
There could be quests with this theme in mind, where the story is more personal and not involving the world, but just the story of one adventurer as he explores the world.

There have been a couple like that -- M&M1 comes to mind. But how do you avoid an anticlimactic ending?

[CybAnt1]

T-3M4= Dog

I sure wish I could plug a plasma discharge beam or ion grenade launcher or force shield generator or logic upgrade into Dog ... but I can see your point, sorta. 

[Realmzmaster]

Planescape Torment was not a significant commercial success. It had great story telling and lots of dialogue, but it did not sell anywhere near the numbers of BG1 or BG2.
Even then in the end you had to face the Transcendent One (who was at one time part of the Nameless One). No you did not have to save the world, but you either had to destroy the Transcendent One or get him to rejoin you to make you mortal, so you could die.

The same in MOTB (which was more successful than PST), you become a spirit eater because you receive the soul cursed by the former God of Death. You must defeat the soul in open combat using the talents and skills developed over the course of the game.
You still have the Hero's journey except you are not saving the world. In the end you must still fight the big bad boss to win otherwise the game would be anticlimatic.
All you have is a variation on the theme, not something new.
The strength of the two games is how the story is crafted. The same with DA:O

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 24 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[Matshelge]

Jonp382 wrote...


They would get their paychecks from Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2, of course. They've got many teams and people. I wish they could divert some away from the DLC/iPhone games and etc and put it on something way cooler. Although, that wouldn't make as much money so it does seem pretty unlikely.

Now I am wondering what you really want. Its OK for BioWare to make Dragon Age and Mass Effect with these storylines, yet argue on the Dragon Age forums that BioWare should take a risk with storylines, just not with these games. And then iPhone and DLC is dismissed as not something BioWare should do?

iPhone games, DS games and DLC gives these stories that you are looking for, but now you want something "cooler"? What would define cool? 

Did you buy and play Galaxy or The Dark Brotherhood? These are the sort of games that can be made for a small budget. Risk is low, marked is huge, sales will cover cost in most cases. This is were the inovation is tested, a storyarc that is unfamiliar, a battlesystem with a twist, partysystems that mix it up.

[RangerSG]

Dick Delaware wrote...

vonFurious wrote...

Bastilla= Morrigan
Mission= Leliana
Carth = Allistar
Hk-47= Shale
Jolee Bindo= Wynne
Canderous= Sten
T-3M4= Dog

You= Don't Really Know Who You Are Until You Realize "Only You Can Save the Universe!"

To be fair, Dragon Age does manage to subvert this a bit. You aren't really some scion of destiny. You  got recruited, made off with your life because Duncan was in the right place at the right time, then you and Alistair were at the Tower of Ishal while the rest of the Grey Wardens were out getting butchered by darkspawn at Ostagar. Really, the only reason you two made it is because you two were the greenest recruits in all of Ferelden, and as a result, were given a relatively low-risk task by Duncan. In fact, it's fair to say you're alive because you suck.

While I agree with you that the characters fit into established oft-used archetypes, they are far, far better developed than KotOR's. Also, they manage to subvert the cliches a lot too. Leliana is a lot less naive than she lets on, Morrigan subverts the whole Defrosting Ice Queen thing because she has an agenda of her own, Sten never tells stories about past battles and is far more standoff-ish than Canderous, etc.

1) I would say that this topic does the usual, "If I reduce everything to its lowest common denominator, everything can be shown to be the same" routine. That's rubbish, and it effectively can only be done if you came to the game with a pre-conceived notion that this would be the same.

2) As noted, Bioware did not invent the Heroic Quest. It's quite possibly the oldest literary form in existence. Blame Homer for it if you want to blame someone.

3) I thought Planescape: Torment was a poor video game. Its pacing was turgid, its story was uninspiring, and its hero was (to me) unsympathetic, so I had no desire to play the game. It would've been ok to read. But as a game? Nah. And it also sold about half its copies after it was officially 'off-market' because of word of mouth from BG fans. By that time, it was already bargain-binned and written off as a loss by Interplay (in fact, this is pretty much when the Interplay death-spiral began). Mask of the Betrayer was interesting. But to say it's a "completely different story." Erm...not so much. By saving yourself, you pretty much ensure you save Rasheman. So it's a classic variant of the Heros Quest, and it's necessary for everyone you do the quest.

4) The character comparisons between KotOR and DA:O don't work past the surface. As noted, in DA they subvert the tropes as much as play them straight. Lel is considerably less naive than she acts. Morrigan's agenda is very much her own, and she shows real moments of personal anguish in what she knows she will do. Alistair's dopey-comic routine is also as much putting on an air to protect himself as it is his real attitude. In KotOR the characters are pretty much stock and played straight. In DA:O, in every case there's enough of a twist on the tropes to make them their own, if not outright subvert them.

5) This brings up the final point. You can point at any piece of literature and say, "It's using (insert trope)! Oh, I've seen that so many times. It's just like (insert movie x)! Why can't they do anything original!" As Jim Butcher would say, the difference between a trope and a cliche is how its used. All literature and every author uses tropes, often consciously. The originality comes in how they get spun, subverted and orchestrated. To be perfectly honest, I'm sure someone read The Iliad and shouted, "I've heard this before!" If your standard of originality is "whole cloth tropeless writing" feel free to try to do it. I'm sure before you get 10 pages you'll have something that any part-time reader of TV Tropes could identify parts in.

A trope isn't a bad thing. It becomes a cliche when its used so generically that one cannot avoid identifying it with the stock source. But all literature uses tropes and saying "Bioware needs to do different." Erm...the problem *might* be you're bored of the fantasy genre. That said, every other genre will have tropes as well. So good luck with that hunt for whole-cloth originality.

Modifié par RangerSG, 24 février 2010 - 03:41 .

[Red Frostraven]

I'm not OP, but...



How about..:



a) You're a retired (something), and you journey seeking adventure, and your COMPANION is that poor sod that has everything going against him, and you're his mentor and companion in his quest for revenge, then you fall in love with his sister or mother?



You have lived a normal life, untill war settles on the neighbouring country, and you decide to help because of personal reasons, and get personally involved with some of the people on one side of the war?



c) you actually make PREVENT war before it takes it's toll on your family and those you love instead of winning a war after losing everything you've got (though, battling against portions of both armies and their knights at points)?

[David Gaider]

RangerSG wrote...
1) I would say that this topic does the usual, "If I reduce everything to its lowest common denominator, everything can be shown to be the same" routine. That's rubbish, and it effectively can only be done if you came to the game with a pre-conceived notion that this would be the same.

I don't know about the pre-conceived notion part, but I agree with your main point. You see this frequently on the forums -- people generalizing plots or characters to the point where they fit into categories, and then claiming that they share too many similarities... while ignoring any differences that don't fit their hypothesis. I get it, and I'm all for desiring something a little different, but I don't find the insight offered by such comparisons particularly profound.

3) I thought Planescape: Torment was a poor video game. Its pacing was turgid, its story was uninspiring, and its hero was (to me) unsympathetic, so I had no desire to play the game. It would've been ok to read. But as a game? Nah. And it also sold about half its copies after it was officially 'off-market' because of word of mouth from BG fans. By that time, it was already bargain-binned and written off as a loss by Interplay (in fact, this is pretty much when the Interplay death-spiral began). Mask of the Betrayer was interesting. But to say it's a "completely different story." Erm...not so much. By saving yourself, you pretty much ensure you save Rasheman. So it's a classic variant of the Heros Quest, and it's necessary for everyone you do the quest.

I thought Planescape: Torment was a brilliant story, but I agree (and I imagine its creators would, as well) that it's not above criticism. That said, I don't think anyone's talking about the quality of its gameplay but the presentation of its story -- which I would agree was quite different. I've listened to Chris talk about this and his goal, in fact, was to turn every fantasy trope on its ear in Torment. Maybe that made it too different to be successful? That's arguable-- hindsight is always 20/20 when it comes to commercial success, and in this case it could have been the marketing or timing as much as the nature of the story, but I can definitely see why Torment would be so favored by those who are oh so tired of fantasy tropes beyond simply how good its story was.

5) This brings up the final point. You can point at any piece of literature and say, "It's using (insert trope)! Oh, I've seen that so many times. It's just like (insert movie x)! Why can't they do anything original!" As Jim Butcher would say, the difference between a trope and a cliche is how its used.

I think the internet version of this is the one Penny Arcade mentioned: "The difference between a trope and a cliche is how much I like it."

All literature and every author uses tropes, often consciously. The originality comes in how they get spun, subverted and orchestrated. To be perfectly honest, I'm sure someone read The Iliad and shouted, "I've heard this before!" If your standard of originality is "whole cloth tropeless writing" feel free to try to do it. I'm sure before you get 10 pages you'll have something that any part-time reader of TV Tropes could identify parts in.

A trope isn't a bad thing. It becomes a cliche when its used so generically that one cannot avoid identifying it with the stock source. But all literature uses tropes and saying "Bioware needs to do different." Erm...the problem *might* be you're bored of the fantasy genre. That said, every other genre will have tropes as well. So good luck with that hunt for whole-cloth originality.

Well said.

I always enjoy when people link to TVTropes as proof of a cliche -- when, in fact, that site is simply a massive list of common themes. I don't think it's possible to create any work of fiction without hitting on a whole bunch of these, nor do I think it's particularly a bad thing. That said, I think an examination of common tropes can be a useful exercise. Abandoning the Hero's Quest entirely may not be in the cards -- we tell heroic tales, and that's not going to change anytime soon -- but there's nothing wrong with stepping back and asking "How can we do this a little differently?" I won't ever agree that the point is to make it different, however, or that the audience we should be seeking to satisfy are the jaded few who are bored by their own over-exposure.

---

And since this thread has already gone into spoiler territory, I'm moving it over to the proper forum.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 février 2010 - 04:07 .

[vonFurious]

I don't think Bioware games offer the same formula again and again, as much as the same recipe: Many different ingredients, some new, some familiar, and all pretty tasty.

I do agree that all "tales have been told". I didn't come into Dragon Age thinking "Oh, this will be KOTOR in leather", but I have to admit I couldn't stop making party comparisons when I did. The NPC party must be appealing to a broad range of people, and I think it has succeeded quite well with that. I appreciate both the archetypes presented, and the subversions of their personalities. But I didn't find that original KOTOR gang lacking any depth or nuance. I do think the similarities, for better or worse, are more than pixel deep.

As for asking "how can we do this differently", I would suggest further exploration of the underlying tones of class and race. Ferelden is full of different races, classes, and magic. Fear, discrimination, misunderstanding, violence and genocide naturally follow. I think Origins gives us a snapshot of these issues, but just that. The darkspawn is a clearly bad thing, but in its current Blight, could it really be called evil? What the Tevinter did to Andraste, now that's evil. I had sympathy for Logain because of he hated the Orlesians more than the Blight. That made sense to me, and generated interest for his motivations.

I loves me some KOTOR. Now just give me a Revan- caliber twist and I will be pleased as punch.

Modifié par vonFurious, 24 février 2010 - 04:45 .

[Jonp382]

Matshelge wrote...

Jonp382 wrote...


They would get their paychecks from Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2, of course. They've got many teams and people. I wish they could divert some away from the DLC/iPhone games and etc and put it on something way cooler. Although, that wouldn't make as much money so it does seem pretty unlikely.

Now I am wondering what you really want. Its OK for BioWare to make Dragon Age and Mass Effect with these storylines, yet argue on the Dragon Age forums that BioWare should take a risk with storylines, just not with these games. And then iPhone and DLC is dismissed as not something BioWare should do?

iPhone games, DS games and DLC gives these stories that you are looking for, but now you want something "cooler"? What would define cool? 

Did you buy and play Galaxy or The Dark Brotherhood? These are the sort of games that can be made for a small budget. Risk is low, marked is huge, sales will cover cost in most cases. This is were the inovation is tested, a storyarc that is unfamiliar, a battlesystem with a twist, partysystems that mix it up.

Yes, it's alright to make Mass Effect and Dragon Age games with their current formula, because as far as I know BioWare wants to make those games and fans like them. I think Dragon Age: Origins is an awesome game. I'm sure there are people on the team who would like to work on Dragon Age: Another Game X however.

[mark holford]

Along this theme, one of the "similarities" that typify the genre is that the story line starts linear, branches into a non-linear open questing phase, and then wraps up into a linear story for the big finish.

In this regard I REALLY like DA:O. I think the balance between linear (forced) story line and the feeling of complete freedom to do what you want is almost perfect.

The origin story / ostagar / Lothering opening is maybe 10% of the story. Followed by 70% of completely free to do what you want, when you want, in the order you want... (okay clearly not completely free, but a good fascimile) - but ultimately you are going to complete (in one manner or another) Dwarfs, Mages, Elves, Redcliff Castle & saving the Arl (Haven). With lots of optional encounters & sidequests. And although it is non-linear, the game manages to maintain a semblance of urgency (Lothering being lost for example) and various scripted cut scenes that remind you to keep moving towards the finish. But the order is completely flexible. You can stop one area, complete some others and come back (and finish off that big bad Dragon!). Really felt like you were "in control"

Then you initiate landsmeet, and the last 20% is again very linear - leading up to the big climax. Again not a whole lot of control, but a in this case a real sense of the story building to a finish.



Common formula (linear/non-linear/linear), but in this case I really feel they got the balance between them really well tuned. I found some previous Bioware games had a fairly short "non-linear" phase (collecting enough gold in BG2 for example), but afterwards the game felt driven into a pre-scripted ending. Personally, I tend to get bored once I feel I'm following along a prescripted set of moves. This is the first RPG in a long time that I've finished, and then immediately started a second run-through to see how different it will be if I roleplay from a different perspective.

So yes, there are certain aspects of the RPG genre that keep showing up, but it's how they are implemented that can make a huge difference between games.

[Malanek]

Valarioth wrote...

Let me preface this with saying I've immensely enjoyed every Bioware game to date, numerous times.

That being said, has anyone noticed how every game has the same formula?  This is a bit simplified, but...

 Unlikely hero, humble beginnings, the great evil bad guy is exposed early and does something to impact the hero.  Hero must gather allies / an army and defeat evil bad guy.  Sprinkle in companion interaction, conversation options and sidequests, it's a Bioware game

I won't do the work for you, but if you think about each Bioware RPG, they have all followed that format, and each one has been wildly successful and enjoyable.

When do you think that formula will become stale?  Personally, I don't know how many more stories I can play with that "hero's journey" archetype.

I don't really "get" what you're getting at. I think you just want a more unique and different story but have presented the argument quite badly badly IMO. Yes, having character interaction and conversations is very much a thing Bioware does all the time, but the scope with this is so broad that simply isn't a problem. I highly doubt (and hope) that Bioware do not plan to change that. And it is always more fun to play a hero.

I actually thought a lot of your other points were simply incorrect in terms of DA. Unlikely hero, humble beginnings??? You can start as a noble. I'm not even sure who you are talking about as the great evil bad guy; Loghain or the Archdemon? I thought the villians were a nice twist. Yes, I wouldn't mind a completely unique story but such things are pretty rare. You can be innovative without reinventing the wheel.

My only real criticism with the DA story was the marketing. So much of the game was spoiled before release that very little surprised me. I was hyped for the release and couldn't help myself from reading plenty of previews (although none that declared spoilers at the start). Yes, that was my own fault but I still don't believe such a broad spectrum of the story should have been shown to the reviewers so far in advance of the game.

Modifié par Malanek999, 24 février 2010 - 08:00 .

[alayex]

In a partial defense of the OP I think people are taking too narrow a view of "humble beginnings." Yes, you can start as a noble but compared to what you become it's pretty humble. It isn't Frodo going from a complete nobody to savior of the world but neither is it starting as the crown prince with a score of successful military campaigns under your belt.



I don't see this as being unique to BioWare. It's a rare RPG that has you start out as a powerful individual within world. If you do you're often brought low at the beginning of the game as you are in the Human Noble origin. Or so I'm told, I haven't actually played that one yet. Please forgive me if I'm wrong.



For the record I loved Planescape: Torment and consider it one of the finest games I've ever played. From the way it de-emphasized combat and leveling to its use of the PC's deaths and resurrections as a game device it very much stands apart from the rest of the field. Some might consider me "oh so tired" of standard fantasy fare but I certainly don't see myself that way. I loved Dragon Age: Origins and I eagerly await Awakenings. But if I could have my way I'd like to see future Dragon Age games break the mold a bit more.

[bstrothe]

One of the things I found very enjoyable about Dragon Age: Origins is that it is primarily a traditional fantasy story; however there are enough twists and dark themes that it still comes across as fresh and interesting to me. If treated very superficially, you see all the familiar aspects that have defined the genre since Tolkien, but if you dig a bit deeper, you see many different takes.



I can't say I expected enslaved elves or Machiavellian dwarves. Logain's betrayal of his son-in-law and King was unexpected. The Fade and the conflicting accounts of the Chantry and the Circle was good too. I liked that faith is still faith in Thedas, not a factual certainty like the Forgotten Realms. The story Wynne tells about the Grey Wardens and their Griffins, as if both were relics of an earlier age and the Wardens were in danger of dying out like their mounts did years before. All that was wonderfully done IMHO and not just the same old formula.

[Cazlee]

Valarioth wrote...

Let me preface this with saying I've immensely enjoyed every Bioware game to date, numerous times.

That being said, has anyone noticed how every game has the same formula?  This is a bit simplified, but...

 Unlikely hero, humble beginnings, the great evil bad guy is exposed early and does something to impact the hero.  Hero must gather allies / an army and defeat evil bad guy.  Sprinkle in companion interaction, conversation options and sidequests, it's a Bioware game

I won't do the work for you, but if you think about each Bioware RPG, they have all followed that format, and each one has been wildly successful and enjoyable.

When do you think that formula will become stale?  Personally, I don't know how many more stories I can play with that "hero's journey" archetype.

That is a formula I've grown to love and expect from all RPGs, but to me Bioware's Jade Empire flipped my expectations on its head. You start off as a sort of "chosen one" and despite the backdrop, it's not very humble beginning imo. Everyone is flattering you and telling you how important you are. I don't recall exactly when the main villain is exposed in Jade Empire, I think you're following one lead after another and there are some gigantic twists in the end of the story. There is no army, but you pick up friends along the way. And with that comes  companion interaction and  romance options, which are features that are loved and expected from bioware games.

[Fishy]

Bioware Formula

1:Banter . A lot of their game have banter.

2:Instance/Zone .. You load a lot

3:Interaction/Romance

4:Multi/Ending

5:Cone of Cold (NWN/Baldur gate/Mass effect (cryo)/Dragon age

6:Thievery(Playing a thief's fun in a bioware game because it's give you extra quest and looting)

7:Outdated Graphic

8:Definitly a lack of weaponry and good looking armor .. It's their style i guess.

9:Point and CLICK combat .. Sight . I hate it .. But eh.

Modifié par Suprez30, 24 février 2010 - 11:36 .

[Loerwyn]

Well using NWN and Baldur's Gate as an example for "Cone of Cold" is a bit silly as they both use a Dungeons & Dragons/Forgotten Realms ruleset/campaign setting so they'll have (roughly) the same spells

[BlastedLands]

Schurge wrote...

Unintentional triple post.

more like:P
to add to topic: so what? that's how many many tales work. it's not like bioware invented that scheme. as long as it's nicely crafted i don't mind seeing it over and over again.
(very simplified, i don't mean to say they're making the same game all the time. not even the same story. just .... generally spoken:huh:)

[cancausecancer]

I like how Mass Effect is like an interactive movie. I'd like to see entertainment evolve in this direction.

[The_Abyss]

5:Cone of Cold (NWN/Baldur gate/Mass effect (cryo)/Dragon age

There's a crap load of RPGs with cone of cold as a spell. Its a staple.

Modifié par The_Abyss, 26 février 2010 - 03:51 .

[Veritasinpersonam]

Gasp. DA:O has a beginning, and an ending, like all Bioware games! Clearly Dragon Age is merely regurgitated tripe. For shame bioware!

[SirOccam]

I am madly in love with both Dragon Age and Mass Effect, and part of that is because I love the archetypes behind it. They are archetypes for a reason.

I just watched Yahtzee's review of Dragon Age the other day, and one of the things he complains about is how everything now sticks to a Tolkienian interpretation about Elves, Dwarves, etc. Well that's because Tolkien was a friggin' genius! I mean, if the next game had Elves as miners and Dwarves as tree-loving hippies, sure they might still make a good game out of it, but it'll never feel as "right" as the way Tolkien did it. For all intents and purposes, Tolkien wrote the fantasy Bible, and only a dirty heathen would ever depart too far from it. It's not a bad thing.

Another example is my friend complained that a Muse song off their newest album sounded like Queen. I asked him how it was bad to be compared to a band as awesome as Queen. If they start sounding like Chumbawumba or something, *then* I'll be pissed.

All of this said, the one big shake-up I wouldn't mind seeing is a departure from the D&D style of tank+healer+dps+utility. The whole concept of tanking has never sat right with me, even though I've gotten used to it over the years. I mean really...you shout insults at your enemy and they forget all logic or reason and attack you instead of your healer or the one wearing a dress and blowing up their comrades with fireballs? That is an extremely tenuous foundation upon which to build an entire genre of games.

[Davescarface]

Valarioth wrote...

Let me preface this with saying I've immensely enjoyed every Bioware game to date, numerous times.

That being said, has anyone noticed how every game has the same formula?  This is a bit simplified, but...

 Unlikely hero, humble beginnings, the great evil bad guy is exposed early and does something to impact the hero.  Hero must gather allies / an army and defeat evil bad guy.  Sprinkle in companion interaction, conversation options and sidequests, it's a Bioware game

I won't do the work for you, but if you think about each Bioware RPG, they have all followed that format, and each one has been wildly successful and enjoyable.

When do you think that formula will become stale?  Personally, I don't know how many more stories I can play with that "hero's journey" archetype.

While the main story plots and the character writing remain top notch, Bioware games will never become boring for most people despite this. There are very few other single player games where you can get such good value for your money/play throughs. All Bioware need to do is keep their games fresh. For instance I don't want to have to battle hordes of Darkspawn all over again in Dragon Age 2  I expect them to come up with far more intesting enemies or it probably would get a bit old yeah. But too much of anything is never good for you. Getting tired of these games? nothing wrong with that, just take a break and play something else for a while. I'm sure you won't be able to resist for too long though  

Modifié par Davescarface, 26 février 2010 - 02:17 .

[Helios969]

I really don't see what the problem some have with the game is. I thought the story compelling and crafted in a way to give the sense of originality. If it's formula-based, that's only to reach the broadest possible market. They do it in the movie industry all the time with romantic comedies and action adventures and horror flicks. Hell they do it in every form of entertainment. At the end of the day, it is about profitability. No invester wants to sink a chunk of money into a niche project - they're looking for maximum return on their investment. Seriously, who here is willing to sink fifty or hundred grand into a game that was targeting a niche market? So writers, game designers, musicians all have to operate under these guidelines. To me the real genius is creating a successful product despite the restrictions and common formula being crammed down our throats. In this, DAO writers and designers have succeeded wonderfully. They are to be commended, not ridiculed.

[Selene Moonsong]

In general, the whole idea of epic fantasy is the 'Hero's Path' scenario; what keeps it fresh are the different ways those 'paths' are presented, the twists and turns in plots, etc.



DO: A doesn't limit to humble beginnings, most are actually the result of a tragedy, whether humble or noble, a fairly common means of launching into an adventure tale. It's better than a 'kill the rats quest', though even that is well presented as a tongue-in-cheek opening in DA: O.



I particularly like the way BioWare handled the different starting points, even though the possible paths are similar for your hero, there is plenty of diversity so that the game feels different enough to warrant multiple re-plays. After a first or second play-through, sure you can anticipate many things, but there are enough cases where options differ that keeps the game fairly fresh depending on your character origins, gender, and choices made.

[Helios969]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

I particularly like the way BioWare handled the different starting points, even though the possible paths are similar for your hero, there is plenty of diversity so that the game feels different enough to warrant multiple re-plays. After a first or second play-through, sure you can anticipate many things, but there are enough cases where options differ that keeps the game fairly fresh depending on your character origins, gender, and choices made.

Yes, that was very innovative.  It caused me to play a variety of characters with different backgrounds of different classes.  Many games I've played make me think of the South Park episode that makes fun of World of Warcraft in which the boys spend hours and days killing pigs (or something like that) in the forest to get powerful enough to take out some guy repeatedly killing off their characters.  Games now need to be as compelling and sophisticated as a good book.  If I'm not drawn into the story very quickly and care about my character (or companions) I'm very likely to quit playing.  I've purchased more than a few games that after 30 minutes I stopped playing because they were ridiculously written.  Others were compelling (just barely) enough to get me to play all the way through, but left me feeling unfulfilled and wishing I had back the 30 or 40 hours of life I wasted.

DAO sucked me in very quickly and maintained my fascination throughout.  Plus I never played a game where I got to have sex with one or more of my companions.