Consider that even in ME 1, Shepard was willing to believe that the Geth were not entirely "in the wrong". Look at the dialog Shepard has with Tali about the creation and history of the Geth. Shepard points out that it is entirely reasonable for Geth to defend itself against the Quarian attempt to kill it.
So, it's not entirely unreasonable that Shepard is willing to trust Geth.
Do you think Legion is lying?
Débuté par
Creston918
, févr. 23 2010 08:16
Retour en haut
#27
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:03
R34P3RR3D33M3R
-
- Members
- 1 389 messages
Lmaoboat wrote...
I think Joker has been an Al-Qaeda sleeper agent all along, and is just waiting for the trigger word before he screams, "Allah Akbar!" and flies the Normandy into the Presidium. Prove me wrong!
No, no. He'd be shouting "Admiral Ackbar!", this is the future afterall!
#28
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:04
babylonfreak
-
- Members
- 223 messages
Bigdoser wrote...
I think legion is one of the most trust worthy of the squad.
What? I mean there are two Cerberus Operatives... um... an ex C-Sec officer turned vigilante... a child tortured as a kid till she's so messed up she turns into a psycopathic criminal... erm... the founder of the Blue Suns... I... er... an assassin,... hrm... a Justicar with a code of conduct that makes no sense and allows for no choice... wait wait... The scientist who rebooted the Genophage. And kills people with farm implements. I will poke a hole in that theory! The daughter of an admiral who was performing illegal tests on... ah I'm stretching, how can you not trust Tali?
But yeah, this probably isn't the most trustworthy squad ever. To be honest I thought Loyalty would mean the disloyal members would start shooting me in the back.
#29
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:04
Sesshomaru47
-
- Members
- 1 455 messages
StarcloudSWG wrote...
Consider that even in ME 1, Shepard was willing to believe that the Geth were not entirely "in the wrong". Look at the dialog Shepard has with Tali about the creation and history of the Geth. Shepard points out that it is entirely reasonable for Geth to defend itself against the Quarian attempt to kill it.
So, it's not entirely unreasonable that Shepard is willing to trust Geth.
I remember that. She yelled at me for pointing it out. Another reason why Quarians are stupid. Sorry to those who think they're the bees knees.
#30
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:04
Zombievarning
-
- Members
- 97 messages
DarthCaine wrote...
Legion: Geth do not lie. It is not installed in their programming
Correction: Geth do not intentionally lie.
#31
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:06
aaniadyen
-
- Members
- 1 933 messages
Creston918 wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
Legion is no less trustworthy than any other person you meet. All you can judge him by are his actions.
He saved your life, and killed enemy Geth. He did not attack Quarians. He was investigating a Reaper for intel. He says he wants peace. He doesnt do anything to contradict these actions.
You are paranoid if you begin inventing these alternate possibilities without any direct evidence that something is wrong.
The council doesn't have any direct evidence of the Reapers either.
Besides a reaper atacking the Citadel itself, you mean?
Legion is just suspicious to some people because he is a Geth, and he acts a little bit suspicious when you talk to him.
#32
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:06
Mystranna Kelteel
-
- Members
- 9 671 messages
On the off-chance that Legion is lying, there's absolutely no reason to assume something bad will come from it.
ME3 is not going to be greatly affected by choices from ME2. ME3 has to be a standalone story, therefore ME2 choices can not significantly alter the plot in such a way as to ruin your chances against the reapers.
If Legion does betray you it will become a small inconvenience somewhere in the game at most. It certainly won't be a "Geth attack us, reapers win" type scenario.
ME3 is not going to be greatly affected by choices from ME2. ME3 has to be a standalone story, therefore ME2 choices can not significantly alter the plot in such a way as to ruin your chances against the reapers.
If Legion does betray you it will become a small inconvenience somewhere in the game at most. It certainly won't be a "Geth attack us, reapers win" type scenario.
#33
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:07
SimonTheFrog
-
- Members
- 1 656 messages
I found some of the Geth - story parts irritating too.
To start with: they don't ever give a damn about "life". So, the whole thing about "we are building our future" just works peaceful until resources are getting rare somewhere. There is just no reason for the Geth to spare or save anyone else... They seem to be open to negotiation, but Legion says that whoever tries to keep the Geth from building their future will be destroyed (in other words). And that can be the slightest misunderstanding about using a mine or blocking a vessel in space.
So, if this wouldn't be a game where it's just about entertainment (Legion is very interesting and has some awesome lines) i'd go with Tali and rather destroy them now then later. And i think too, that Shep is very stupid to assume that the Geth can be benign. They are not, it's a ticking time bomb.
Another thing that i found interesting was, that in ME1 Tali talks about the Geth as if each "Terminal" was actually ONE Geth. Check the dialogs in the engines room about the Geth.
Legion on the other hand, talks about single programs being individual Geth, and many share one "Terminal". So, either they started to pack more programs into the bodies or Tali know's very little about them... which would be strange. This reeks of retcon because they somehow needed to explain why Legion is so smart.
Btw, the whole big surprise about bad heretics and good/peaceful orthodox (that's how i'd call them) Geth doesn't have the impact on the Quarians that would be expected. Tali doesn't seem very exited, even though going back to the homelands seems to be just a matter of negotiating for a couple of minutes ("we, Quarians won't kill you orthodox's and you don't care that we live here... fine, done"). So, the whole "heretic" thing seems like a big surprise to the writers of ME too. It's not implemented in the story at all...
If Geth don't know individuals like we do and all share the same datapool, then how was decided which program became heretic and which orthodox? Why would one think that 3 is more than 2 and not 2 is one more than 1? They don't have "character", or DNA, or culture or anything that sets the individuals apart from each other. It just doesn't make sense to have 2 sort of Geth that still share the same datapool.
IF it would make sense... then how come that the heretics don't know about the virus and that the orthodox are preparing a counterattack. The would require either encryption or physically separated datapools. And both cannot exist if both kinds of Geth still share the same "language" and connections system. How can you device an encryption or "virus" when all Geth are sharing the phase of consensus-building.
IF they are separated now, how did it start?
I totally like such life-forms when they show up in sci-fi shows or games because it's mind boggling to think it through. I just don't like it, when all aliens are basically humans with a twist (and most of the creatures of ME are just that). And the Geth were "ok" as long as legion didn't start to talk about the heretics... then it all fell apart.
To start with: they don't ever give a damn about "life". So, the whole thing about "we are building our future" just works peaceful until resources are getting rare somewhere. There is just no reason for the Geth to spare or save anyone else... They seem to be open to negotiation, but Legion says that whoever tries to keep the Geth from building their future will be destroyed (in other words). And that can be the slightest misunderstanding about using a mine or blocking a vessel in space.
So, if this wouldn't be a game where it's just about entertainment (Legion is very interesting and has some awesome lines) i'd go with Tali and rather destroy them now then later. And i think too, that Shep is very stupid to assume that the Geth can be benign. They are not, it's a ticking time bomb.
Another thing that i found interesting was, that in ME1 Tali talks about the Geth as if each "Terminal" was actually ONE Geth. Check the dialogs in the engines room about the Geth.
Legion on the other hand, talks about single programs being individual Geth, and many share one "Terminal". So, either they started to pack more programs into the bodies or Tali know's very little about them... which would be strange. This reeks of retcon because they somehow needed to explain why Legion is so smart.
Btw, the whole big surprise about bad heretics and good/peaceful orthodox (that's how i'd call them) Geth doesn't have the impact on the Quarians that would be expected. Tali doesn't seem very exited, even though going back to the homelands seems to be just a matter of negotiating for a couple of minutes ("we, Quarians won't kill you orthodox's and you don't care that we live here... fine, done"). So, the whole "heretic" thing seems like a big surprise to the writers of ME too. It's not implemented in the story at all...
If Geth don't know individuals like we do and all share the same datapool, then how was decided which program became heretic and which orthodox? Why would one think that 3 is more than 2 and not 2 is one more than 1? They don't have "character", or DNA, or culture or anything that sets the individuals apart from each other. It just doesn't make sense to have 2 sort of Geth that still share the same datapool.
IF it would make sense... then how come that the heretics don't know about the virus and that the orthodox are preparing a counterattack. The would require either encryption or physically separated datapools. And both cannot exist if both kinds of Geth still share the same "language" and connections system. How can you device an encryption or "virus" when all Geth are sharing the phase of consensus-building.
IF they are separated now, how did it start?
I totally like such life-forms when they show up in sci-fi shows or games because it's mind boggling to think it through. I just don't like it, when all aliens are basically humans with a twist (and most of the creatures of ME are just that). And the Geth were "ok" as long as legion didn't start to talk about the heretics... then it all fell apart.
#34
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:08
Vaenier
-
- Members
- 2 815 messages
A giant reaper killing the old council would seem to be evidence enough. or your mission recordings of the conversation with nazara or the vi on ilios, or the collector base, or the reaper fetus, or that collectors are protheans, or the data on the derelect reaper from 37 million years ago, or the IFF for the omega 4 relay, or the Geth intel, or the ancient indoctrination machines from millions of years ago, or maybe they really are that dumb...Creston918 wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
Legion is no less trustworthy than any other person you meet. All you can judge him by are his actions.
He saved your life, and killed enemy Geth. He did not attack Quarians. He was investigating a Reaper for intel. He says he wants peace. He doesnt do anything to contradict these actions.
You are paranoid if you begin inventing these alternate possibilities without any direct evidence that something is wrong.
The council doesn't have any direct evidence of the Reapers either.
#35
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:14
Creston918
-
- Members
- 1 580 messages
aaniadyen wrote...
Creston918 wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
Legion is no less trustworthy than any other person you meet. All you can judge him by are his actions.
He saved your life, and killed enemy Geth. He did not attack Quarians. He was investigating a Reaper for intel. He says he wants peace. He doesnt do anything to contradict these actions.
You are paranoid if you begin inventing these alternate possibilities without any direct evidence that something is wrong.
The council doesn't have any direct evidence of the Reapers either.
Besides a reaper atacking the Citadel itself, you mean?
Exactly. I was being facetious. We have every reason to distrust the Geth, since they wiped out Eden Prime, and they attacked the Citadel. We have only Legion's word that this was because of some heretofore unknown "heretic" faction. A "heretic" faction which, even if it does actually exist, did all these things with the silent approval of the other Geth. Legion admits as much on the "heretic" station.
Now, obviously we can argue that the writers came up with something new for ME2, and simply spliced in some explanation to reason it all away, which is fine. It just seems fairly dangerous for Shepard to so blindly trust a race which two years ago was trying its damndest to wipe out all civilized life.
As for all the crying that I'm being paranoid, eh, actually I'm just bored at work and started thinking about this. I figured it'd be an interesting debate.
#36
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:16
SimonTheFrog
-
- Members
- 1 656 messages
Vaenier wrote...
A giant reaper killing the old council would seem to be evidence enough. or your mission recordings of the conversation with nazara or the vi on ilios, or the collector base, or the reaper fetus, or that collectors are protheans, or the data on the derelect reaper from 37 million years ago, or the IFF for the omega 4 relay, or the Geth intel, or the ancient indoctrination machines from millions of years ago, or maybe they really are that dumb...Creston918 wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
Legion is no less trustworthy than any other person you meet. All you can judge him by are his actions.
He saved your life, and killed enemy Geth. He did not attack Quarians. He was investigating a Reaper for intel. He says he wants peace. He doesnt do anything to contradict these actions.
You are paranoid if you begin inventing these alternate possibilities without any direct evidence that something is wrong.
The council doesn't have any direct evidence of the Reapers either.
yeah, it's really too bad that Shepard didn't take a foto when (s)he was talking to Sovereign... would have made life easier in ME2
#37
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:17
Creston918
-
- Members
- 1 580 messages
Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
On the off-chance that Legion is lying, there's absolutely no reason to assume something bad will come from it.
ME3 is not going to be greatly affected by choices from ME2. ME3 has to be a standalone story, therefore ME2 choices can not significantly alter the plot in such a way as to ruin your chances against the reapers.
If Legion does betray you it will become a small inconvenience somewhere in the game at most. It certainly won't be a "Geth attack us, reapers win" type scenario.
That's possible, but it would be really, really annoying if Bio goes that route. I want major choices made in ME1 and ME2 to carry over to such an extent that they make it almost impossible to win ME3. That said, the choice of Legion isn't really a choice. You either give him to Cerberus or you trust him. There's no in-between.
IF Legion is just a sleeper agent, I would imagine there'd be a way to discover that and thwart him in ME3.
#38
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:19
Creston918
-
- Members
- 1 580 messages
Vaenier wrote...
A giant reaper killing the old council would seem to be evidence enough. or your mission recordings of the conversation with nazara or the vi on ilios, or the collector base, or the reaper fetus, or that collectors are protheans, or the data on the derelect reaper from 37 million years ago, or the IFF for the omega 4 relay, or the Geth intel, or the ancient indoctrination machines from millions of years ago, or maybe they really are that dumb...Creston918 wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
Legion is no less trustworthy than any other person you meet. All you can judge him by are his actions.
He saved your life, and killed enemy Geth. He did not attack Quarians. He was investigating a Reaper for intel. He says he wants peace. He doesnt do anything to contradict these actions.
You are paranoid if you begin inventing these alternate possibilities without any direct evidence that something is wrong.
The council doesn't have any direct evidence of the Reapers either.
I sure hope they aren't.
When your plot writing is so shaky that even other Bioware employees come up to you and go "Dude, the council claiming that there is no such thing as a Reaper makes no sense," you know you've not really done well in the believability department.
The council has to have some reason for being so utterly obtuse. Then again, maybe they truly are that dumb. Let's face it, politicians are chosen from a pool which contains
- Lawyers who can't win any cases.
- Businessmen who can't hack it in the real world.
- Rich daddy's boys/girls.
Not exactly a shining beacon of human excellence. I imagine it'd be the same for the other races.
#39
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:25
Vaenier
-
- Members
- 2 815 messages
Well, I was able to put anderson on the council. If the Turian suddenly died, maybe I could put Garrus on the council. Or if the asari died, I could put Liara there. I will control the galaxy! muahahahah! >Creston918 wrote...
The council has to have some reason for being so utterly obtuse. Then again, maybe they truly are that dumb. Let's face it, politicians are chosen from a pool which contains
- Lawyers who can't win any cases.
- Businessmen who can't hack it in the real world.
- Rich daddy's boys/girls.
Not exactly a shining beacon of human excellence. I imagine it'd be the same for the other races.
#40
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:27
WoodWizzard87
-
- Members
- 184 messages
aaniadyen wrote...
Creston918 wrote...
DarthCaine wrote...
Legion: Geth do not lie. It is not installed in their programming
He sure comes damn close to lying when you ask him why he has a piece of N7 armor strapped to his chest.
There's a difference between lying and not understanding.
Geth cant interpret feelings, love, bashfulness, anger. Thats why he says error, he took teh armor, but doesnt understand why he took it.
#41
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:29
McMaze
-
- Members
- 62 messages
I'm not sure but wasn't it mentioned by someone ( Saren ?) in ME 1 that the Reapers despise the Geth and are only using them as tools like any other organic species they used before to destroy the galaxy ? As far as I can remember Vigil said that in the end the Reapers exterminated all life in the galaxy including their (organic)allies. Why should they make a difference for the Geth ? If this is true and the Geth realize their true nature it makes sense to oppose them.
I think the only thing we know for certain is that the Geth want the best for their "people" and afterall the Reapers are not really trustworthy.
I think the only thing we know for certain is that the Geth want the best for their "people" and afterall the Reapers are not really trustworthy.
#42
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:30
aaniadyen
-
- Members
- 1 933 messages
Vaenier wrote...
Well, I was able to put anderson on the council. If the Turian suddenly died, maybe I could put Garrus on the council. Or if the asari died, I could put Liara there. I will control the galaxy! muahahahah! >Creston918 wrote...
The council has to have some reason for being so utterly obtuse. Then again, maybe they truly are that dumb. Let's face it, politicians are chosen from a pool which contains
- Lawyers who can't win any cases.
- Businessmen who can't hack it in the real world.
- Rich daddy's boys/girls.
Not exactly a shining beacon of human excellence. I imagine it'd be the same for the other races.
Garrus on the Council would be the funniest **** ever.
#43
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:34
Creston918
-
- Members
- 1 580 messages
Vaenier wrote...
Well, I was able to put anderson on the council. If the Turian suddenly died, maybe I could put Garrus on the council. Or if the asari died, I could put Liara there. I will control the galaxy! muahahahah! >Creston918 wrote...
The council has to have some reason for being so utterly obtuse. Then again, maybe they truly are that dumb. Let's face it, politicians are chosen from a pool which contains
- Lawyers who can't win any cases.
- Businessmen who can't hack it in the real world.
- Rich daddy's boys/girls.
Not exactly a shining beacon of human excellence. I imagine it'd be the same for the other races.
Garrus on the council would be hilarious.
#44
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:42
raven2510
-
- Members
- 90 messages
Exactly...His programing does not understand why. Its because the Geth are Evoloving. His programing has nothing describing feelings....which is what they are moving towards.WoodWizzard87 wrote...
aaniadyen wrote...
Creston918 wrote...
DarthCaine wrote...
Legion: Geth do not lie. It is not installed in their programming
He sure comes damn close to lying when you ask him why he has a piece of N7 armor strapped to his chest.
There's a difference between lying and not understanding.
Geth cant interpret feelings, love, bashfulness, anger. Thats why he says error, he took teh armor, but doesnt understand why he took it.
#45
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:44
CardonT
-
- Members
- 243 messages
aaniadyen wrote...
Vaenier wrote...
Well, I was able to put anderson on the council. If the Turian suddenly died, maybe I could put Garrus on the council. Or if the asari died, I could put Liara there. I will control the galaxy! muahahahah! >Creston918 wrote...
The council has to have some reason for being so utterly obtuse. Then again, maybe they truly are that dumb. Let's face it, politicians are chosen from a pool which contains
- Lawyers who can't win any cases.
- Businessmen who can't hack it in the real world.
- Rich daddy's boys/girls.
Not exactly a shining beacon of human excellence. I imagine it'd be the same for the other races.
Garrus on the Council would be the funniest **** ever.
"Batarian slavers invading council space again? Snipe one for me while you send the fleet in, would ya?"
#46
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:45
MaaZeus
-
- Members
- 1 851 messages
McMaze wrote...
I'm not sure but wasn't it mentioned by someone ( Saren ?) in ME 1 that the Reapers despise the Geth and are only using them as tools like any other organic species they used before to destroy the galaxy ? As far as I can remember Vigil said that in the end the Reapers exterminated all life in the galaxy including their (organic)allies. Why should they make a difference for the Geth ? If this is true and the Geth realize their true nature it makes sense to oppose them.
I think the only thing we know for certain is that the Geth want the best for their "people" and afterall the Reapers are not really trustworthy.
This makes sense. I dont really understand how there can be "Heretic" Geth either, but if Geth finally found out the true nature of the Reapers, its possible that they want to remove old hostilities with organics and oppose Reapers to ensure their own survival. This of course still implies that Legion is lying...
#47
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:47
SmilingMirror
-
- Members
- 703 messages
I'm pretty sure Legion is just the Geth version of the addoring fan from Oblivion.
#48
Posté 23 février 2010 - 09:48
raven2510
-
- Members
- 90 messages
Legion's story is all about evolution. All life....be it synthetic or organic evolves. Its natural....that's why his answers are sometimes cryptic. Its because they(geth) don't quite understand whats happening & why. They will...it just takes time.
#49
Posté 23 février 2010 - 10:14
Creston918
-
- Members
- 1 580 messages
MaaZeus wrote...
McMaze wrote...
I'm not sure but wasn't it mentioned by someone ( Saren ?) in ME 1 that the Reapers despise the Geth and are only using them as tools like any other organic species they used before to destroy the galaxy ? As far as I can remember Vigil said that in the end the Reapers exterminated all life in the galaxy including their (organic)allies. Why should they make a difference for the Geth ? If this is true and the Geth realize their true nature it makes sense to oppose them.
I think the only thing we know for certain is that the Geth want the best for their "people" and afterall the Reapers are not really trustworthy.
This makes sense. I dont really understand how there can be "Heretic" Geth either, but if Geth finally found out the true nature of the Reapers, its possible that they want to remove old hostilities with organics and oppose Reapers to ensure their own survival. This of course still implies that Legion is lying...
Yup, that's possible too. That the Geth realized their mistake, and made up their convenient "heretic" lie to make themselves look better.
The whole heretic thing just came out of left field for me, and Legion's explanations just make me frown even more. So... you KNEW what the heretics were doing, but you accepted it because it was a valid solution for THEM? It was a-okay with you that they were helping the Reapers wipe out the galaxy?
Great...
#50
Posté 23 février 2010 - 10:17
Edgar1729
-
- Members
- 20 messages
I love Legion, its dialog is really well written. It spent a lot of time to debunk the myth of "I.A.=evil terminators wanting to wipe out humanity" by rational and logic answers.
Did you get the dialog when Legion explain the Geth's future ? It explains they're building a giant superstructure to host all the Geth software, to unite them, and that they're at it since 240 years.
Obviously we're going to hear about it in ME3 (Quarian vs Geth is a given, but I wonder how that "Geth-Reaper" thing is going to play out).
I would also point out that Legion didn't tell that Geth would destroy anyone interfering with their future. Instead, it tells a tautology : sentient species who will try to interfere with the Geth future will be affected by it.
SimonTheFrog [/url]]
To start with: they don't ever give a damn about "life". So, the whole thing about "we are building our future" just works peaceful until resources are getting rare somewhere. There is just no reason for the Geth to spare or save anyone else... They seem to be open to negotiation, but Legion says that whoever tries to keep the Geth from building their future will be destroyed (in other words). And that can be the slightest misunderstanding about using a mine or blocking a vessel in space.
Did you get the dialog when Legion explain the Geth's future ? It explains they're building a giant superstructure to host all the Geth software, to unite them, and that they're at it since 240 years.
Obviously we're going to hear about it in ME3 (Quarian vs Geth is a given, but I wonder how that "Geth-Reaper" thing is going to play out).
I would also point out that Legion didn't tell that Geth would destroy anyone interfering with their future. Instead, it tells a tautology : sentient species who will try to interfere with the Geth future will be affected by it.
Modifié par Edgar1729, 23 février 2010 - 10:21 .
