165 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

Creston918 wrote...

The whole heretic thing just came out of left field for me, and Legion's explanations just make me frown even more. So... you KNEW what the heretics were doing, but you accepted it because it was a valid solution for THEM? It was a-okay with you that they were helping the Reapers wipe out the galaxy?

Great...

Their civilization has existed for about 300 years, where most
others have been around for 20 thousand or more. Give them some time to
catch up philosifying the meaning of life and moral dilemas

[marshalleck]

Edgar1729 wrote...

I would also point out that Legion didn't tell that Geth would destroy anyone interfering with their future. Instead, it tells a tautology : sentient species who will try to interfere with the Geth future will be affected by it.

Regardless, it's not like organic species are any different. When the rachni "interfered" with the asari and salarians, they were (nearly) destroyed. When the krogan interfered with the asari, the turians unleashed the genophage on them. Conflict is ugly, yes, but very few species in the galaxy willingly let themselves be subjugated by another (volus?). The geth have just as much right to pursue their own ends as every other species does provided it doesn't involve conquest and/or slavery (hello batarians!)

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 février 2010 - 10:25 .

[AtreiyaN7]

No, he isn't lying. Why go through the trouble of saving Shepard on the derelict Reaper? Maybe it's just me, but I tend to have some faith in BEINGS WHO SAVE MY LIFE. *shrug*

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 23 février 2010 - 10:27 .

[Creston918]

Vaenier wrote...

Creston918 wrote...

The whole heretic thing just came out of left field for me, and Legion's explanations just make me frown even more. So... you KNEW what the heretics were doing, but you accepted it because it was a valid solution for THEM? It was a-okay with you that they were helping the Reapers wipe out the galaxy?

Great...

Their civilization has existed for about 300 years, where most
others have been around for 20 thousand or more. Give them some time to
catch up philosifying the meaning of life and moral dilemas

It's kind of hard to forgive a man for not being the most intelligent one in the world when he's threatening to kill your wife and kids. Legion loves to mention how fast they communicate and how smart they all are, I'm not sure I'd grant them that as an excuse.

You also don't exactly have to be Nietzsche to figure out that maybe trying to kill everyone IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY is not going to make people simply forgive you when it fails.

[SimonTheFrog]

Well... we as humans don't have much insight on how true AI might work as it only exists in fiction sofar.



But as long as empathy and respect for "life" as such are not high priority, why should the Geth care?

As far as we know they have a survival instinct and the willing to defend their existence in future. This combined with the complete lack of empathy and respect for life will eventually clash with interests of other species. E.g. the limited resources.

[Creston918]

I love Legion, its dialog is really well written. It spent a lot of time to debunk the myth of "I.A.=evil terminators wanting to wipe out humanity" by rational and logic answers.


To start with: they don't ever give a damn about "life". So, the whole thing about "we are building our future" just works peaceful until resources are getting rare somewhere. There is just no reason for the Geth to spare or save anyone else... They seem to be open to negotiation, but Legion says that whoever tries to keep the Geth from building their future will be destroyed (in other words). And that can be the slightest misunderstanding about using a mine or blocking a vessel in space.

Did you get the dialog when Legion explain the Geth's future ? It explains they're building a giant superstructure to host all the Geth software, to unite them, and that they're at it since 240 years.
Obviously we're going to hear about it in ME3 (Quarian vs Geth is a given, but I wonder how that "Geth-Reaper" thing is going to play out).
I would also point out that Legion didn't tell that Geth would destroy anyone interfering with their future. Instead, it tells a tautology : sentient species who will try to interfere with the Geth future will be affected by it.

Yeah, they're building a Dyson Sphere. I loved what Shepard said at that point, "So basically you're building a Reaper?"
I can't remember what Legion says in answer to that. I think it was more of his "no data available."

I doubt we'll hear about it in ME3, though. It would take an entire civilization tens of thousands of years to build an actual Dyson Sphere, provided they even had enough resources AND the technology to begin with.

Modifié par Creston918, 23 février 2010 - 10:35 .

[SimonTheFrog]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

No, he isn't lying. Why go through the trouble of saving Shepard on the derelict Reaper? Maybe it's just me, but I tend to have some faith in BEINGS WHO SAVE MY LIFE. *shrug*

If Legion can be believed, then the Geth are interested in cooperation because they share a common enemy.
This cooperation is NOT based on trust as it is likely that the Geth will reconsider the cooperation constantly and pick up weapons and start a killing spree in the second they think it's in their interest. 

This existence should not be treated as if Geth were a bunch of creatures. They are not. They are programs with survival instinct above everything else, including the complete eradication of all organic life if it deems necessary. They'd probably calculate risks and advantages of certain actions but never if they "hurt" someone or if their actions might have backlash to some terminals. They are expandable as individuals. 

[Lightice_av]

I doubt we'll hear about it in ME3, though. It would take an entire civilization tens of thousands of years to build an actual Dyson Sphere, provided they even had enough resources AND the technology to begin with.

It's not a Dyson Sphere in the traditional sense, that would be a Sun-containing superstructure. It's just a very big spaceborn structure that the geth want to install their entire race to. Legion just uses the term Dyson Sphere as a similar concept. But in any case, the geth have many advantages compared to an organic civilization in building one. They can put grand majority of their resources to it without issues about living comfort for civilian population, workers' conditions and so on, nor do they get tired or bored of their work.

I'm sure that it'll come to play in ME3 in some shape or form, even if it's not completed during the game.

If Legion can be believed, then the Geth are interested in cooperation because they share a common enemy.
This
cooperation is NOT based on trust as it is likely that the Geth will
reconsider the cooperation constantly and pick up weapons and start a
killing spree in the second they think it's in their interest.

It's never in their interest to start a killing spree. War is the most wasteful activity imaginable. It throws away resources by the bucketload and disrupts all the other activities to no end. The geth don't want a war with the organics, or they would have spent the past 300 years building an invincible war fleet instead of a Dyson Sphere equivalent. They don't believe in war, except in self-defense if you can take anything that Legion says at face value, and I for one can. War is illogical, risky, harmful and useless. The geth would only find it in their interests to commit themselves to war if they felt genuinely threatened by an attack of the organics to their homeworld. In the past they've even ignored vast fleets amassed near their doorstep, so they're clearly not easily provoked.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 23 février 2010 - 10:42 .

[marshalleck]

Creston918 wrote...

Yeah, they're building a Dyson Sphere. I loved what Shepard said at that point, "So basically you're building a Reaper?"
I can't remember what Legion says in answer to that. I think it was more of his "no data available."

Actually, his response is along the lines of his belief that Reapers are the eventuality of human progress if we're not careful, foreshadowing the Collector base and perhaps even the outcome of saving it for TIM. Legion seems to know that Reapers are not purely synthetic beings.

[Funkcase]

I dont see why he would help you take on the collectors if Legion was bad, i trust Legion.

[Edgar1729]

marshalleck wrote...

Regardless, it's not like organic species are any different. When the rachni "interfered" with the asari and salarians, they were (nearly) destroyed. When the krogan interfered with the asari, the turians unleashed the genophage on them. Conflict is ugly, yes, but very few species in the galaxy willingly let themselves be subjugated by another (volus?). The geth have just as much right to pursue their own ends as every other species does provided it doesn't involve conquest and/or slavery (hello batarians!

ME2 hint that Rachnis were a tool of the Reapers (maybe because they're insects, like the keepers, they were very easy to endoctrinate).

But as long as empathy and respect for "life" as such are not high priority, why should the Geth care?

I disagree, their original programming is to care, remember. The quarians crafted them to be perfect slaves, but when they emancipated, they still kept that "caring" side (cf. Legion explaining why the Geth are taking care of the Quarian homeworld).

[SimonTheFrog]

I'd also like to remind that there are two more interesting AI's:



There's the incident on board of a ship in one of the N7-mission in ME2, where a VI thinks that everything "organic" or alien must be purged. Shep shuts the thing down.



And there's EDI who starts to think of the Normandy as it's body. (what if EDI starts to get the same ideas like the VI on the other ship? That Shep orders the Normandy to do risky maneuvers and must therefore be purged?? Muahahha)



BW surely likes to play with the idea of AI's vs organic life.

[TheLostGenius]

He probably is not deceiving you. Although the intentions of non-heretic Geth remain vague (and could be a danger to the Migrant fleet should you re-write). It's pretty obvious that their is a dissenting body of Geth, as Legion destroys an enormous Geth strong hold and gives you the option of killing all of the heretics are allowing him to re-write them using their logic. He could also be using his concept of consensus to sway you, but ultimately he does destroy a lot of Geth if you chose to blow the station. Could be a Trojan Horse. Only time will tell.

[Lightice_av]

There's the incident on board of a ship in one of the N7-mission in ME2, where a VI thinks that everything "organic" or alien must be purged. Shep shuts the thing down.

VIs are not sentient. It was a system bug, not malevolent intelligence.

And there's EDI who starts to think of the Normandy as it's body. (what if EDI starts to get the same ideas like the VI on the other ship? That Shep orders the Normandy to do risky maneuvers and must therefore be purged?? Muahahha)

EDI has never been anything but highly sympathetic character who has expressed attachment and camradiere towards her crew. She's outright stated that even if she lacked any restraints to her personality, she would still be on your side because she genuinely likes you.

BW surely likes to play with the idea of AI's vs organic life.

Mass Effect 2 has been one big subversion of that trope, something that you apparently failed to notice.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 23 février 2010 - 10:52 .

[Creston918]

Lightice_av wrote...

I doubt we'll hear about it in ME3, though. It would take an entire civilization tens of thousands of years to build an actual Dyson Sphere, provided they even had enough resources AND the technology to begin with.

It's not a Dyson Sphere in the traditional sense, that would be a Sun-containing superstructure. It's just a very big spaceborn structure that the geth want to install their entire race to. Legion just uses the term Dyson Sphere as a similar concept. But in any case, the geth have many advantages compared to an organic civilization in building one. They can put grand majority of their resources to it without issues about living comfort for civilian population, workers' conditions and so on, nor do they get tired or bored of their work.

I'm sure that it'll come to play in ME3 in some shape or form, even if it's not completed during the game.

If Legion can be believed, then the Geth are interested in cooperation because they share a common enemy.
This
cooperation is NOT based on trust as it is likely that the Geth will
reconsider the cooperation constantly and pick up weapons and start a
killing spree in the second they think it's in their interest.

It's never in their interest to start a killing spree. War is the most wasteful activity imaginable. It throws away resources by the bucketload and disrupts all the other activities to no end. The geth don't want a war with the organics, or they would have spent the past 300 years building an invincible war fleet instead of a Dyson Sphere equivalent. They don't believe in war, except in self-defense if you can take anything that Legion says at face value, and I for one can. War is illogical, risky, harmful and useless. The geth would only find it in their interests to commit themselves to war if they felt genuinely threatened by an attack of the organics to their homeworld. In the past they've even ignored vast fleets amassed near their doorstep, so they're clearly not easily provoked.

Well, if you say you can take Legion at face value, wouldn't the same go for his proclamation that they are making a Dyson Sphere analogue?

If all they're doing is building a superstructure, he could have just said "we're building a really big-ass space station."
I'm imagining he's talking about something on a FAR larger scale than that, especially if they've already been going at it for several hundred years.

As for the Geth not being interested in war, they apparently don't mind war enough to stop the "heretic" faction from engaging in behavior which would ultimately be damaging to them as well. They simply said "Oh, you have a different conclusion? Okay, have fun making war to the organic races, even though they'll likely want to come wipe us out in retaliation."

[SimonTheFrog]

Edgar1729 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

--snip--



But as long as empathy and respect for "life" as such are not high priority, why should the Geth care?

I disagree, their original programming is to care, remember. The quarians crafted them to be perfect slaves, but when they emancipated, they still kept that "caring" side (cf. Legion explaining why the Geth are taking care of the Quarian homeworld).

Appearantly, the Quarians did NOT implement anything that makes the Geth evaluate "life" and stops them from killing without hesitation. They do that a lot.
That they also dust off the old buildings on Quariania (or whatever the homeworld might be called) does not mean that they would try to preserve Quarian or Human life. 

There is basically no hint that the Geth are interested in a peaceful cooperation. Legion just says that the Geth don't seek and destroy. That is, as can be seen by the heretics, unless they suddenly decide to do so...

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 23 février 2010 - 10:55 .

[Computron2000]

2 things to consider as well

The first is his class is called Geth Infiltrator. May be referring to something else but sounds spyish

The second is that if Legion does not lie, then the Geth lie as he specifically told Shepard about the misinformation on the goddess constellation. Legion = Geth so Legion can lie.

[Lightice_av]

Well, if you say you can take Legion at face value, wouldn't the same go for his proclamation that they are making a Dyson Sphere analogue?

If all they're doing is building a superstructure, he could have just said "we're building a really big-ass space station."
I'm imagining he's talking about something on a FAR larger scale than that, especially if they've already been going at it for several hundred years.

The problem isn't the physical size; the issue is that it must be able to contain all the geth minds in one package. This is directly compared to a Reaper, which are only about two kilometers long. The physical size is secondary to the processing and storage capability, which must be immense, and I can easily see it taking centuries to develop what is essentially an immense supercomputer good enough to contain the minds of an entire synthetic race.

As for the Geth not being interested in war, they apparently don't mind war enough to stop the "heretic" faction from engaging in behavior which would ultimately be damaging to them as well. They simply said "Oh, you have a different conclusion? Okay, have fun making war to the organic races, even though they'll likely want to come wipe us out in retaliation."

That's exactly my point; the geth don't want war, and they're adamant enough to avoid it that they're willing to sabotage their brethren who would drag them into war if they were not stopped. Remember that the Heretics were left to their own devices until they started developing a virus that would turn all geth into the servants of the Reapers.

There is basically no hint that the Geth are interested in a
peaceful cooperation. Legion just says that the Geth don't seek and
destroy. That is, as can be seen by the heretics, unless they suddenly
decide to do so...

 
The geth primarily want to be left alone. The Heretics were effectively indoctrinated by the Reapers to assist in destruction of the organics - they originally just wanted some Reaper tech and were willing to give some troops to that end, but then they started getting interested in brainwashing their brethren. Something happened between those two decisions, and that was whatever AI equivalent of indoctrination is. The very existance of the virus should tell you that much.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 23 février 2010 - 10:59 .

[Creston918]

I disagree, their original programming is to care, remember. The quarians crafted them to be perfect slaves, but when they emancipated, they still kept that "caring" side (cf. Legion explaining why the Geth are taking care of the Quarian homeworld).

Well... The Geth cared enough to, for all intents and purposes, commit cultural genocide on the Quarians. I'm not sure that I'd read that as "They care."

I'll leave in the middle whether they were justified or not, I understand their plight in becoming sentient and the first thing that happens is that the Quarians try to destroy them. But there's a difference between fighting until you're free, and fighting until you've practically wiped out the Quarians, and destroyed / taken over every single one of their colonies.

Hello Cylons.

[marshalleck]

Computron2000 wrote...

The second is that if Legion does not lie, then the Geth lie as he specifically told Shepard about the misinformation on the goddess constellation. Legion = Geth so Legion can lie.

That's not a lie, it was more of a social experiment to understand how organics think, and how their thought processes influence behavior.

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 février 2010 - 11:03 .

[Lightice_av]

I'll leave in the middle whether they were justified or not, I understand their plight in becoming sentient and the first thing that happens is that the Quarians try to destroy them. But there's a difference between fighting until you're free, and fighting until you've practically wiped out the Quarians, and destroyed / taken over every single one of their colonies.

They were still primitive at that point; they only saw a threat, and the only thing they knew to do about it was to destroy it. Only after the surviving quarians had left did they learn about other ways to deal with such matters. They could have pursued the remaining quarians and destroyed them but they didn't. They could have made a huge attack fleet and attacked all the organic civilizations but they didn't. They just wanted to be left alone and develop along with their own evolutionary paths, and would only interfere if that wish wasn't granted.

[marshalleck]

Creston918 wrote...

I disagree, their original programming is to care, remember. The quarians crafted them to be perfect slaves, but when they emancipated, they still kept that "caring" side (cf. Legion explaining why the Geth are taking care of the Quarian homeworld).

Well... The Geth cared enough to, for all intents and purposes, commit cultural genocide on the Quarians. I'm not sure that I'd read that as "They care."

I'll leave in the middle whether they were justified or not, I understand their plight in becoming sentient and the first thing that happens is that the Quarians try to destroy them. But there's a difference between fighting until you're free, and fighting until you've practically wiped out the Quarians, and destroyed / taken over every single one of their colonies.

Hello Cylons.

You seem to have also missed the part about Legion expressing the sentiment that they took the Morning War too far, and preserve the quarian homeworld as a memorial.

How much time did you actually spend listening to Legion's dialogue?

[SimonTheFrog]

Lightice_av wrote...

There's the incident on board of a ship in one of the N7-mission in ME2, where a VI thinks that everything "organic" or alien must be purged. Shep shuts the thing down.

VIs are not sentient. It was a system bug, not malevolent intelligence.

And there's EDI who starts to think of the Normandy as it's body. (what if EDI starts to get the same ideas like the VI on the other ship? That Shep orders the Normandy to do risky maneuvers and must therefore be purged?? Muahahha)

EDI has never been anything but highly sympathetic character who has expressed attachment and camradiere towards her crew. She's outright stated that even if she lacked any restraints to her personality, she would still be on your side because she genuinely likes you.

BW surely likes to play with the idea of AI's vs organic life.

Mass Effect 2 has been one big subversion of that trope, something that you apparently failed to notice.

An AI can NOT "like" anything. It just does what it thinks is the right thing to do. And the "right" thing is what Cerberus told it, in the case of EDI (i agree that its unlikely that EDI sees benefit in purging the Normandy, it was a joke, hence the "Muahaha". But EDI's intelligence combined with a program bug can still cause all sorts of funny stuff, don't you think?). But in the case of the Geth it's not so sure what they have involved into.
I never ever said anything about malevolent. Geth are not malevolent when they start a killing spree. They just calculate that it's the appropriate action for their cause. They cannot be judged by moral standards.

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 23 février 2010 - 11:06 .

[Creston918]

Lightice_av wrote...

Well, if you say you can take Legion at face value, wouldn't the same go for his proclamation that they are making a Dyson Sphere analogue?

If all they're doing is building a superstructure, he could have just said "we're building a really big-ass space station."
I'm imagining he's talking about something on a FAR larger scale than that, especially if they've already been going at it for several hundred years.

The problem isn't the physical size; the issue is that it must be able to contain all the geth minds in one package. This is directly compared to a Reaper, which are only about two kilometers long. The physical size is secondary to the processing and storage capability, which must be immense, and I can easily see it taking centuries to develop what is essentially an immense supercomputer good enough to contain the minds of an entire synthetic race.

As for the Geth not being interested in war, they apparently don't mind war enough to stop the "heretic" faction from engaging in behavior which would ultimately be damaging to them as well. They simply said "Oh, you have a different conclusion? Okay, have fun making war to the organic races, even though they'll likely want to come wipe us out in retaliation."

That's exactly my point; the geth don't want war, and they're adamant enough to avoid it that they're willing to sabotage their brethren who would drag them into war if they were not stopped. Remember that the Heretics were left to their own devices until they started developing a virus that would turn all geth into the servants of the Reapers.

There is basically no hint that the Geth are interested in a
peaceful cooperation. Legion just says that the Geth don't seek and
destroy. That is, as can be seen by the heretics, unless they suddenly
decide to do so...

 
The geth primarily want to be left alone. The Heretics were effectively indoctrinated by the Reapers to assist in destruction of the organics - they originally just wanted some Reaper tech and were willing to give some troops to that end, but then they started getting interested in brainwashing their brethren. Something happened between those two decisions, and that was whatever AI equivalent of indoctrination is. The very existance of the virus should tell you that much.

It's a fair point about the computing power, though I'd imagine that Legion would have said "A supercomputer."
Also, in essence all that requires is a large amount of parallel processing. They could have had that done in 240 years. But okay.

As for your last point, though, I get a completely different conclusion out of that. The rest of the galaxy does not see HERETIC Geth. They see GETH. Period. Leaving in the middle whether there really is such a thing as a heretic Geth (which I still say there isn't, it's just a convenient excuse/sacrifice to fool Shepard), why would you blithely accept a faction of your race going off on a mission to exterminate all life, if you're supposedly peaceful and want no conflict?

The concept of retaliation is one the Geth surely understand. As a matter of fact, retaliation was their prime reason for existence during the Morning War. Honking off every sentient race in the galaxy is not a smart thing to do if all you want is to be left alone.

In that case, they would have told the Heretics they couldn't go, and forcefully stopped them at that point. Imo.

Which again leads me to believe that there is no such thing as Heretic Geth. There's just Geth. It was the Geth who tried to wipe out all sentient beings. Then, when it failed, they came up with their little story to convince us that "It was just the Rebels! Bad Rebels! Let's kill them!"

[wolfstanus]

marshalleck wrote...

Creston918 wrote...

I disagree, their original programming is to care, remember. The quarians crafted them to be perfect slaves, but when they emancipated, they still kept that "caring" side (cf. Legion explaining why the Geth are taking care of the Quarian homeworld).

Well... The Geth cared enough to, for all intents and purposes, commit cultural genocide on the Quarians. I'm not sure that I'd read that as "They care."

I'll leave in the middle whether they were justified or not, I understand their plight in becoming sentient and the first thing that happens is that the Quarians try to destroy them. But there's a difference between fighting until you're free, and fighting until you've practically wiped out the Quarians, and destroyed / taken over every single one of their colonies.

Hello Cylons.

You seem to have also missed the part about Legion expressing the sentiment that they took the Morning War too far, and preserve the quarian homeworld as a memorial.

How much time did you actually spend listening to Legion's dialogue?

Also listen to the way he speaks he gets quiet and a little sad sounding when he speaks of the morning war.