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Do you think Legion is lying?


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#76
Creston918

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marshalleck wrote...

Creston918 wrote...


I disagree, their original programming is to care, remember. The quarians crafted them to be perfect slaves, but when they emancipated, they still kept that "caring" side (cf. Legion explaining why the Geth are taking care of the Quarian homeworld).


Well... The Geth cared enough to, for all intents and purposes, commit cultural genocide on the Quarians. I'm not sure that I'd read that as "They care."

I'll leave in the middle whether they were justified or not, I understand their plight in becoming sentient and the first thing that happens is that the Quarians try to destroy them. But there's a difference between fighting until you're free, and fighting until you've practically wiped out the Quarians, and destroyed / taken over every single one of their colonies.

Hello Cylons.




You seem to have also missed the part about Legion expressing the sentiment that they took the Morning War too far, and preserve the quarian homeworld as a memorial.

How much time did you actually spend listening to Legion's dialogue?


I listened to his entire dialogue tree about three times. The issue is just whether to take anything he says as truth.

#77
Computron2000

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marshalleck wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

The second is that if Legion does not lie, then the Geth lie as he specifically told Shepard about the misinformation on the goddess constellation. Legion = Geth so Legion can lie.


That's not a lie, it was more of a social experiment.


You're stretching it. Lying means omitting the truth deliberately or telling an known untruth as the trurth. The Geth knew the constellation was fake = lying. The reasons for doing so does not remove the action done. Example, you killed a man in self defense does not change the fact you killed a man.

Additionally we have to consider that  if a reason is all a Geth need to lie, then Legion may have a multitude of reasons to do so.

"We deemed it startegically sound to place a trusted source at your side."
"We concluded it sound that control of information to you to control your view point"
"It was logical for us to ensure we had prior information on your movements and actions."
Etc

Modifié par Computron2000, 23 février 2010 - 11:08 .


#78
-Area51-Silent

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I dont believe geth are actually able to lie. To lie is to be able to make a statement such as 1+1=3, while thats an oversimplification of it, Geth are completely software driven, I do not believe Geth can lie so much as be in error.



From the interactions and information you acquire about the Geth, and how almost all systems are derived (from the way it sounds). Therefore the Geth cannot lie, if the Heretics believe differently, then their collective minds derive the answer of 1+1=3 as a true statement based on how the software is configured in each of their platforms (or individuals as we know them).



Just my thoughts.

#79
Lightice_av

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An AI can NOT "like" anything. It just does what it thinks is the right thing to do.


False. People always assume that emotions are some special magic pixie dust that makes organic life all special and different, but they're in fact the most robotic aspect of the human existance; chemical reactions that can be stimulated or suppressed with simple drug cocktails. AIs can most definately like or dislike things.

They cannot be judged by moral standards.


Yes they can. They have a sense of morality, concepts or right and wrong - not only that but they didn't ape them from the quarians, they developed them on their own. They have feelings, even though they're uncomfortable with human terminology about them. They damn well can be morally judged.

Which again leads me to believe that there is no such thing as
Heretic Geth. There's just Geth. It was the Geth who tried to wipe out
all sentient beings. Then, when it failed, they came up with their
little story to convince us that "It was just the Rebels! Bad
Rebels! Let's kill them!"

 
I don't see logic in your claim for this. You would need to back it up with some facts. The geth who sided with the Reapers did it for a specific purpose - a purpose that the mainstream Geth found to be harmful and wrong to their own existence.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 23 février 2010 - 11:11 .


#80
marshalleck

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Computron2000 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

The second is that if Legion does not lie, then the Geth lie as he specifically told Shepard about the misinformation on the goddess constellation. Legion = Geth so Legion can lie.


That's not a lie, it was more of a social experiment.


You're stretching it. Lying means omitting the truth deliberately or telling an known untruth as the trurth. The Geth knew the constellation was fake = lying. The reasons for doing so does not remove the action done. Example, you killed a man in self defense does not change the fact you killed a man.

Additionally we have to consider that  if a reason is all a Geth need to lie, then Legion may have a multitude of reasons to do so.

"We deemed it startegically sound to place a trusted source at your side."
"We concluded it sound that control of information to you to control your view point"
"It was logical for us to ensure we had prior information on your movements and actions."
Etc


Nah, I think you're the one that's really stretching the definition of a lie. The topic of this thread is deliberate subterfuge and counter-intelligence. While I have never jumped on the "they are computers and can't lie!" bandwagon, I still don't think these are directly comparable. For the constellation experiment, they merely planted a rumor on the extranet and watched how organics reacted. There's a huge difference between that action and constructing an elaborate mythology about heretic geth and sending Legion out to delude Shepard into believing the geth are benevolent. Just because they carried out the constellation experiment doesn't mean everything Legion says is constructed to be deliberately misleading.

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 février 2010 - 11:16 .


#81
Edgar1729

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SimonTheFrog wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

BW surely likes to play with the idea of AI's vs organic life.


Mass Effect 2 has been one big subversion of that trope, something that you apparently failed to notice.


An AI can NOT "like" anything.


I agree with Lightice_av, you didn't notice how Legion's dialogue patiently debunked and destroyed each IA's tropes (IAs are evils, etc.).

Basically Geth would have wanted to be left alone (they didn't felt that they had to correct the heretic mistake), but Shepard's action has forced them to take an interest in the fate of each sapient life, that's why they constructed Legion, a quite independent 1000-software platform. Their higher belief seem to be that each sapient life has the right to "build their futur".

As for the quarian war, Geth were forced in a total war. Quarians never considered to surrender (there's a line about that in ME1, between Shepard and Tali). Basically, according to Legion, everything is ready for the peace between them and Quarians, but as it points out, while Geth hold no grudge, the same cannot be told about Quarians. We all know that the outcome of Geth versus Quarians will be decided in ME3, probably by Shepard.

#82
SimonTheFrog

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Lightice_av wrote...

An AI can NOT "like" anything. It just does what it thinks is the right thing to do.


False. People always assume that emotions are some special magic pixie dust that makes organic life all special and different, but they're in fact the most robotic aspect of the human existance; chemical reactions that can be stimulated or suppressed with simple drug cocktails. AIs can most definately like or dislike things.

They cannot be judged by moral standards.


Yes they can. They have a sense of morality, concepts or right and wrong - not only that but they didn't ape them from the quarians, they developed them on their own. They have feelings, even though they're uncomfortable with human terminology about them. They damn well can be morally judged.


Ok, that's interesting. Feelings are no doubt part of our thinking, combined with hormons etc. There could be an equivalent for such a thing in an AI, why not.
But if you have a program, why should a program "like" anything. There is just no reason, no necessity. It has been created for a purpose and, considered its selfawareness, adds the survival instinct to this purpose. Why should it bother with adding stuff like "empathy" etc.? What for? What would be the gain?

There are gains for humans/animals to have that kind of stuff, based on social needs in herds/families, reproduction etc. All those forces don't exist for an AI.

And on what do you base your claim that they have a concept for right or wrong? I mean in an ethical way? I think Legion even explains that they don't have that on his loyalty mission. 

#83
Computron2000

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marshalleck wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Computron2000 wrote...

The second is that if Legion does not lie, then the Geth lie as he specifically told Shepard about the misinformation on the goddess constellation. Legion = Geth so Legion can lie.


That's not a lie, it was more of a social experiment.


You're stretching it. Lying means omitting the truth deliberately or telling an known untruth as the trurth. The Geth knew the constellation was fake = lying. The reasons for doing so does not remove the action done. Example, you killed a man in self defense does not change the fact you killed a man.

Additionally we have to consider that  if a reason is all a Geth need to lie, then Legion may have a multitude of reasons to do so.

"We deemed it startegically sound to place a trusted source at your side."
"We concluded it sound that control of information to you to control your view point"
"It was logical for us to ensure we had prior information on your movements and actions."
Etc


Nah, I think you're the one that's really stretching the definition of a lie. The topic of this thread is deliberate subterfuge and counter-intelligence. While I have never jumped on the "they are computers and can't lie!" bandwagon, I still don't think these are directly comparable. For the constellation experiment, they merely planted a rumor on the extranet and watched how organics reacted. There's a huge difference between that action and constructing an elaborate mythology about heretic geth and sending Legion out to delude Shepard into believing the geth are benevolent.


Ok the last post i'm doing as the evidence and logic is astoundingly obvious
This is the definition from http://www.merriam-w.../dictionary/lie

Lie
1
:[/b] to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2[/b] :[/b] to create a false or misleading impression

Modifié par Computron2000, 23 février 2010 - 11:16 .


#84
marshalleck

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I don't need a textbook definition of lie, I made my reasoned response, why don't you address my actual argument instead of quoting a dictionary?

#85
Kenshen

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ExtremeOne wrote...

The Quarians want the geth exterminated and will do what ever it takes to get it done. Tali even begs you to protect her father's illegal work.


True but that wasn't because of the Geth.  She knew if that work came out at the trail her fathers entire career and exsistance would be erased from there history books. Tali was protecting her fathers name not the geth.

#86
SimonTheFrog

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All this considered, i don't think Legion lies....



I think, that bioware just "created" those friendly Geth and that's it. The "orthodox" Geth are friendly, self-contained and self-reliant and even become friends with humans.



It's still fun to think about the implications and discuss the "what if"s, even if bioware never really thought about them themselves ;)


#87
marshalleck

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SimonTheFrog wrote...

All this considered, i don't think Legion lies....

I think, that bioware just "created" those friendly Geth and that's it. The "orthodox" Geth are friendly, self-contained and self-reliant and even become friends with humans.

It's still fun to think about the implications and discuss the "what if"s, even if bioware never really thought about them themselves ;)


I don't know about that. There were hints in ME1 that the geth were more complex than we could understand at the time. I would point to the use of a quarian singing a lament as the signal sent back beyond the veil that their mission in Geth Incursions, where Tali gets her data, was a failure. Also the strange constructs on Feros that were speculated to be religious in nature.

Modifié par marshalleck, 23 février 2010 - 11:24 .


#88
Edgar1729

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SimonTheFrog wrote...
And on what do you base your claim that they have a concept for right
or wrong? I mean in an ethical way? I think Legion even explains that
they don't have that on his loyalty mission. 


I think they have a concept like that, when Legion explains that it thinks all sapient life should be able to build their future. They're liberal, in a philosophical way.

Though there's something very dangerous about the Geth. We still don't know how the Reapers began, and somehow I feel that it may have been like the Geth.

Modifié par Edgar1729, 23 février 2010 - 11:27 .


#89
Creston918

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Lightice_av wrote...

Which again leads me to believe that there is no such thing as
Heretic Geth. There's just Geth. It was the Geth who tried to wipe out
all sentient beings. Then, when it failed, they came up with their
little story to convince us that "It was just the Rebels! Bad
Rebels! Let's kill them!"

 
I don't see logic in your claim for this. You would need to back it up with some facts. The geth who sided with the Reapers did it for a specific purpose - a purpose that the mainstream Geth found to be harmful and wrong to their own existence.



Well, there's the "fact" that you've never heard of a heretic Geth faction until Legion tells you about one, and conveniently comes up with the location of its main HQ.

There's the "fact" that Legion conveniently knows that the heretics are making/made a computer virus which would rewrite the Peaceful Geth (to call them something) to become Heretic Geth.

There's the "fact" that throughout ME1 and ME2, there are plenty of stories and evidence of Geth atrocities committed against sentient races, in wide areas across the galaxy, despite the fact that Legion says that the "heretics" are only 5% of the entire Geth race. (I THINK he says that, it might be a different number. I got the idea that the heretics are a small faction.)

And what you're saying is wrong. The Peaceful Geth DIDN'T find the Heretic Geth to be harmful and wrong to their own existence until AFTER the Heretic Geth were defeated at the Citadel. (If I remember Legion's timeframe correctly.) Legion specifically says that the Peaceful Geth felt the Heretic Geth's conclusion was valid for the Heretic Geth, and let them leave. But that was after Nazara had come along and had told them "Hey, I'm gonna wipe out all organic life in the galaxy. Wanna join?"

That seems a dubious conclusion to reach if you're a civilization that wants to be left alone.

Here's the thing: There is NOTHING pointing to a heretic Geth faction, besides Legion telling you there is one. Nada. You just have to take him at his word.

I find it just as likely that the Geth gambled, lost, and are now trying to cover their asses.

But, again, merely for the sake of whittling away a few hours while bored at work. :)

#90
Geth Knight

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I trust Legion. And I also had no problem with the "heretic" part. If anyone remembers a Tali mission in ME1, you had to gain information about the Geth for Tali. Information from Geth not under the control of Saren, I might add. Now, if all Geth were working for Sovereign, then that whole bit about finding Geth intell would have been pointless. Also, there was the Geth you killed that was listening to Quarian music. Why would a synthetic army be listening to the music of a lowly organic meatbag?

#91
Creston918

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SimonTheFrog wrote...

All this considered, i don't think Legion lies....

I think, that bioware just "created" those friendly Geth and that's it. The "orthodox" Geth are friendly, self-contained and self-reliant and even become friends with humans.

It's still fun to think about the implications and discuss the "what if"s, even if bioware never really thought about them themselves ;)


I bet David Gaider is reading this thread, and scribbling notes furiously. :P

#92
Creston918

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Geth Knight wrote...

I trust Legion. And I also had no problem with the "heretic" part. If anyone remembers a Tali mission in ME1, you had to gain information about the Geth for Tali. Information from Geth not under the control of Saren, I might add. Now, if all Geth were working for Sovereign, then that whole bit about finding Geth intell would have been pointless. Also, there was the Geth you killed that was listening to Quarian music. Why would a synthetic army be listening to the music of a lowly organic meatbag?


If there is such a thing as Heretic Geth, then the information you retrieved from them is from the Heretic Geth, because you got it from the ones in their forward bases in the Armstrong Cluster, which were (according to Admiral Hackett) a vanguard for invasion.

Which Geth was listening to Quarian music? THat's very interesting, I don't think I ever noticed that.

#93
Fjordgnu

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If I were a person talking to Legion, I would be suspicious. Lying seems out of character for a race of synthetics, though.

#94
Edgar1729

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In ME1 there is a Geth watching a Quarian holovid with some music (or was it in ME2 ? now I'm confused). When you killed it, there's some text about it.

#95
marshalleck

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Creston918 wrote...

Geth Knight wrote...

I trust Legion. And I also had no problem with the "heretic" part. If anyone remembers a Tali mission in ME1, you had to gain information about the Geth for Tali. Information from Geth not under the control of Saren, I might add. Now, if all Geth were working for Sovereign, then that whole bit about finding Geth intell would have been pointless. Also, there was the Geth you killed that was listening to Quarian music. Why would a synthetic army be listening to the music of a lowly organic meatbag?


If there is such a thing as Heretic Geth, then the information you retrieved from them is from the Heretic Geth, because you got it from the ones in their forward bases in the Armstrong Cluster, which were (according to Admiral Hackett) a vanguard for invasion.

Which Geth was listening to Quarian music? THat's very interesting, I don't think I ever noticed that.



The geth weren't listening to quarian music. They used a quarian singing a lament as a signal that their mission, whatever it was, had failed. People argued about why AIs would use such a signal. In hindsight, it makes a lot more sense if we believe that those geth were not under Saren's control and were in fact up to something that was not a precursor to invasion.

#96
SimonTheFrog

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Creston918 wrote...

Geth Knight wrote...

I trust Legion. And I also had no problem with the "heretic" part. If anyone remembers a Tali mission in ME1, you had to gain information about the Geth for Tali. Information from Geth not under the control of Saren, I might add. Now, if all Geth were working for Sovereign, then that whole bit about finding Geth intell would have been pointless. Also, there was the Geth you killed that was listening to Quarian music. Why would a synthetic army be listening to the music of a lowly organic meatbag?


If there is such a thing as Heretic Geth, then the information you retrieved from them is from the Heretic Geth, because you got it from the ones in their forward bases in the Armstrong Cluster, which were (according to Admiral Hackett) a vanguard for invasion.

Which Geth was listening to Quarian music? THat's very interesting, I don't think I ever noticed that.



Indeed, as Legion says himself (itself?!), he is the one and only peace-Geth beyond the veil. 
I never saw one listening to music either... some ipod-geth i missed?

#97
Lightice_av

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But if you have a program, why should a program "like" anything. There is just no reason, no necessity. It has been created for a purpose and, considered its selfawareness, adds the survival instinct to this purpose. Why should it bother with adding stuff like "empathy" etc.? What for? What would be the gain?


First, emotions motivate sentient beings. An emotionless individual has no drive to do anything. If an AI is capable of being fond of people it's supposed to protect, it can be far more effective in this goal than an AI that just coldly follows misson parameters. Emotions are an important aspect of intuition and decision-making skills, and a good AI needs both to fulfill its functions. And if you want to make a sapient AI to work with humans, you damn well need to make it capable of empathy, unless you deliberately want to invoke bad sci-fi clichés.

And on what do you base your claim that they have a concept for right or wrong? I mean in an ethical way? I think Legion even explains that they don't have that on his loyalty mission.


You failed to listen. Legion explains that the Heretics don't share your pity, remorse or fear - a Terminator shout-out, by the way. Not only does Legion speak about the Heretics, rather than the geth as a whole, but it also refers to a series of specific emotions. Lacking certain emotions does not equal being entirely emotionless, and Legion demonstrates several emotional responses during its stay on the Normandy.
But you were talking about ethics, something that Legion does not refer to in that scene. Don't you remember what Legion says about the geth motivations in general? It effectively explains the geth framework of thought towards other races as that everyone has the right to define their own course in life so far as they do not adversely affect others. This is an ethical guideline. It's rudimentary and straightforward, which is why I believe it's origin is the geth themselves, rather than quarian moral philosophers. It's also notable in that it encourages isolationism as opposed to cooperation, as it involves fear of assuming harmful aspects from other cultures, as opposed to desire to learn good aspects from them - undoubtedly the result of their traumatic awakening to self-consciousness. But whether or not you fully agree with it, it is a moral guideline.

People argued about why AIs would use such a signal. In hindsight, it
makes a lot more sense if we believe that those geth were not under
Saren's control and were in fact up to something that was not a
precursor to invasion.



No. They were a listening post. If you pay attention, Legion talks about those. They observe the organic civilizations from the fringes of their space. And the fact that they chose that music as their signal indicates emotional attachment to it. It's not a coincidence that they chose a song of that particular style and content, to be sure.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 23 février 2010 - 11:35 .


#98
slicer477

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Legion might actually be kaiden or ashley depending on which one you left on vermire, who has somehow had their consciousness transplanted into a geth and that is why he says "Does not compute..." when you press him for an answer on where he got the n7 armor.

#99
Lmaoboat

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I think Legion has some of the best writing, and it would be silly of Bioware to make this indepth lore to turn around and go ,"JK, they're all just evil robots!"

#100
Mariquis

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SimonTheFrog wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

An AI can NOT "like" anything. It just does what it thinks is the right thing to do.


False. People always assume that emotions are some special magic pixie dust that makes organic life all special and different, but they're in fact the most robotic aspect of the human existance; chemical reactions that can be stimulated or suppressed with simple drug cocktails. AIs can most definately like or dislike things.

They cannot be judged by moral standards.


Yes they can. They have a sense of morality, concepts or right and wrong - not only that but they didn't ape them from the quarians, they developed them on their own. They have feelings, even though they're uncomfortable with human terminology about them. They damn well can be morally judged.


Ok, that's interesting. Feelings are no doubt part of our thinking, combined with hormons etc. There could be an equivalent for such a thing in an AI, why not.
But if you have a program, why should a program "like" anything. There is just no reason, no necessity. It has been created for a purpose and, considered its selfawareness, adds the survival instinct to this purpose. Why should it bother with adding stuff like "empathy" etc.? What for? What would be the gain?

There are gains for humans/animals to have that kind of stuff, based on social needs in herds/families, reproduction etc. All those forces don't exist for an AI.

And on what do you base your claim that they have a concept for right or wrong? I mean in an ethical way? I think Legion even explains that they don't have that on his loyalty mission. 


I believe it was actually Mordin who mentioned it but when he comes on and tries to identify EDI's voice he comments that it has 'simulated emotional inflections' or some such.  And I think I recall at some other point in the game where someone mentions that there an 'emotion chip' to get an AI (or VI) to 'create emotion' or 'simulate emotion.'   Legion does not have this.  In fact when you ask Legion about whether he's angry with the Quarians for what they did he responds with something akin to 'I can't feel anger, so no. I'm not angry.'  

So EDI who apparently has simulated emotion has been granted the capacity to feel, which explains why she might 'like' something.  In fact EDI even jokes showing she has some emotional capacity, a being with no emotional capacity would not joke around.  Legion however who does not have the capacity to feel (or does not acknowledge the fact that he can feel)  acts entirely upon consensus of the geth networks.  Which might explain why they were so remorseless when driving back the Quarians.  It also would explain why they weren't overly concerned about the heretics doing crazy stuff as, so long as it wasn't affecting them personally, it was not important.  He also explains when you're doing his loyalty mission that the Heretics had somehow moved beyond the geth, as they were deceiving them.  (This is the part where he notes that they have some.. patrol protocols or something that they should not have had) And he wonders how it is that they've come to that point, since before then both Heretics had always... not worked together, but mutually ignored the other so long as they didn't interfere with each other.  He then asks why other species value independence so much when all it seems to do is cause conflict :P