165 réponses à ce sujet

[Creston918]

CuthbertTheAllgood wrote...

Why a " mark? should be 0110111001101111 (thats "no" in binary). All you had to do was search "binary converter" on bing or google...

On topic, you raise some relevant points, however I dare say that it may be bad story telling on BioWare's part...

I'm not that power nerdy.

I don't think it's bad writing. Bioware has fantastic writers, they wouldn't settle for bad writing. It's possible (and likely) that they have missed things here and there that they just didn't think about, and eventually people will discuss those things and talk about it, and as good writers, they'd conveniently slip in a little note in ME3 that confirms or denies something. 

If Legion is lying to you, that wouldn't be bad writing, that would be AWESOME writing.

Mass Effect is essentially a story told in first person perspective. You are Shepard. (That little clowning around as Joker not considered.)

One of the prime benefits of telling a story in first person perspective is that the author can lie to his/her readers, in a way they normally can't when they tell a story in (omniscient) third person perspective.

Therefore, not everything that's told to Shepard has to be truth. It would actually be boring if that was so. Everybody lies, why would people NOT lie to Shepard?

[Lightice_av]

There's no writer in the world who writes a story, lets it sit there for three years, then doesn't add to it. Especially since it's writing for a game, and Bioware is making decision on what goes into the next game based on what people like or don't like. Their writing will have to be altered in order to accommodate those changes.

Ofcourse not, but the geth and their place in the storyline is very important, and they're most certainly a part of the main plot arch that has been written back when ME1 was envisioned to ensure a consistent experience throughout the trilogy. They're not an afterthought or a detail to be added later.

There is absolutely 0.0% evidence that Geth are anything but utterly, annihilatingly hostile to any form of organic life in ME1. Not a single clue to the contrary, despite all the theories about "quarian laments."

It was obvious to me since ME1 that there was more to the geth than we saw. And I mean obvious. Why else build up a race of villains with such morally ambigious, tragic backstory? Why else let you criticize the quarians from the get-go over their treatment of the geth? The clues were all there, and I still have a hard time understanding how some failed to see them.

If Legion is lying to you, that wouldn't be bad writing, that would be AWESOME writing.

If Legion is lying to you just so that the geth get to be bad guys again, it's bad writing. I don't doubt at all that Legion is telling the geth side of the story, which some with alternate perspective can heavily disagree with, but to just cut out all that character development for "We lied. Now die!"-level of storytelling would be just plain stupid.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 24 février 2010 - 12:31 .

[jlewlotr]

I'm not as up-to-date on Mass Effect AI lore as many on here, so I won't try, but here are some points to consider, as least regarding AI emotions and lying and such:

I was under the impression that the difference between a VI and an AI was essentially that a VI is limited completely to its programming, and acts according to it. An AI, however, acts of its own volition, thus implying it has emotions and feelings. If it acted completely logically, it would just be a VI driven by its programming logic. The reason the Geth seem to be so calculating and robotic is probably due to the fact that their decisions are vastly more informed than those made by organics, since all of their "minds" are directly linked and they can make judgments and come to consensuses much more quickly. Two heads are better than one right? How about a million heads working together...

Also, on my first playthrough I noticed that at one point the lights of Legions inner wiring change from blue to red permanently. I'm not exactly sure at what point that happened, I just noticed it eventually. Are there any theories about that?

Modifié par jlewlotr, 24 février 2010 - 12:35 .

[Geth Knight]

I agree with, Lightice_av, It would be horrific writing. There is bad writing and then there is ignoring subtle clues handed to you on a silver platter if you paid enough attention. Thats like saying Palpatine was the good guy all along because he built a few orphanages. But thats opening up a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened in these forums.

[SimonTheFrog]

jlewlotr wrote...

I'm not as up-to-date on Mass Effect AI lore as many on here, so I won't try, but here are some points to consider, as least regarding AI emotions and lying and such:

I was under the impression that the difference between a VI and an AI was essentially that a VI is limited completely to its programming, and acts according to it. An AI, however, acts of its own volition, thus implying it has emotions and feelings. If it acted completely logically, it would just be a VI driven by its programming logic. The reason the Geth seem to be so calculating and robotic is probably due to the fact that their decisions are vastly more informed than those made by organics, since all of their "minds" are directly linked and they can make judgments and come to consensuses much more quickly. Two heads are better than one right? How about a million heads working together...

Also, on my first playthrough I noticed that at one point the lights of Legions inner wiring change from blue to red. I'm not exactly sure at what point that happened, I just noticed it eventually. Are there any theories about that?

The color changes with the loyalty mission. Its just a artistic gimmic i think.

Well, what you describe is essentially the question: does self-awareness mean feelings like compassion, empathy, interest in others, hate, fear etc.
Or could it be that AI is just like VI, only self-aware and with the will to improve itself and take measure for self-defence if needed.

the latter is what i try to find arguments for, i think others are more going into the first direction.

[Creston918]

Lightice_av wrote...

There's no writer in the world who writes a story, lets it sit there for three years, then doesn't add to it. Especially since it's writing for a game, and Bioware is making decision on what goes into the next game based on what people like or don't like. Their writing will have to be altered in order to accommodate those changes.

Ofcourse not, but the geth and their place in the storyline is very important, and they're most certainly a part of the main plot arch that has been written back when ME1 was envisioned to ensure a consistent experience throughout the trilogy. They're not an afterthought or a detail to be added later.

There is absolutely 0.0% evidence that Geth are anything but utterly, annihilatingly hostile to any form of organic life in ME1. Not a single clue to the contrary, despite all the theories about "quarian laments."

It was obvious to me since ME1 that there was more to the geth than we saw. And I mean obvious. Why else build up a race of villains with such morally ambigious, tragic backstory? Why else let you criticize the quarians from the get-go over their treatment of the geth? The clues were all there, and I still have a hard time understanding how some failed to see them.

If Legion is lying to you, that wouldn't be bad writing, that would be AWESOME writing.

If Legion is lying to you just so that the geth get to be bad guys again, it's bad writing. I don't doubt at all that Legion is telling the geth side of the story, which some with alternate perspective can heavily disagree with, but to just cut out all that character development for "We lied. Now die!"-level of storytelling would be just plain stupid.

I hate trying to get the quotes to come out right in between, so I'll just answer in stages :

1) Obviously the Geth are a main part of the storyline, but that doesn't mean they can't be added to or altered in any way. In fact, that was never my original argument, I just got kind of sidetracked on that.

2) I have no problem agreeing to disagree on that point. Sure, you can see more things into the Geth behavior in ME1, but it's not there as evidence. In essence, you're saying to me "You need to give me evidence for your theory, but my theory—without evidence—stands as fact." 

For example, I like the idea of the listening post theory, but that's all it is :  A theory. It doesn't fit any of the facts any better than it being exactly what Hackett says they are : Staging grounds for a Geth invasion force. Especially since Legion says that HE has been the only Peace-Geth beyond the Veil. So if you want to assume that they were in fact peace-Geth, you're in essence saying Legion is capable of lying. So why couldn't he lie about something else then.

3) Note that my original "Legion's Geth wipe you out when the Reapers attack" is mostly just tongue in cheek. It could easily be that the Geth, as a whole, sided with Sovereign, got their asses handed to them at the Citadel, and decided to switch sides. But in order to be able to do so, they had to come up with a believable excuse: ergo, the heretics.

Whether the heretic faction was written pre-ME1 or written in as a result of decisions made for ME2 is a bit academic to the whole discussion whether there really is such a thing as a heretic faction. Several people in this thread, you included, have made some excellent points in favor of the heretic faction, but in the same way, there's several things that speak against such a faction, mostly following things that Legion says that logically do not coincide well with the idea of them being peaceful and just wanting to be left alone.

And now it's time for me to go home. Great debate, all. Please continue.

[MaaZeus]

Pretty easily.  Her father was performing experiments on sentients with
not only her knowledge but her support.  Then when you find out, she
(seems to) turn on the water works and begs you not to tell anyone.

While im pretty sure you are just goofing/trolling around, I still have to clarify. Tali never sent anything SENTIENT to his father. Only parts that were dead, cannot reactivate on its own and such. In organic terms it can be said that she just sent valuable bodyparts and organs. This is what her loyalty mission was about too. She had no idea that her father was building active geth out of the parts she sent plus other things she was completely unaware off.

Her father intetionally left Tali out of the loop what he was really doing, and this is clearly shown in the V-logs and evidence. Thats what the evidence was all about, Rael was commiting atrocities on Sentient beings without Tali's knowledge, and you can show it to clear her own name if you so wish, though ruining her familys name in the process...

Modifié par MaaZeus, 24 février 2010 - 12:46 .

[Malysoun]

I'd like to interject a couple things here.

Whe we ask Tali about the geth in ME1, she says they get smarter the more are around, and she also said she probably wasn't explaining it very well. We know that originally the geth may have been single isolated VI processes with 1 per platform, and they share low level tasks.



As I work with supercomputers, I know that some clustering software will poll nodes for votes on forming a quorum (building consensus). And the newer explanation of multiple programs per platform makes sense, one VI process can handle locomotion, one can handle language processing, one can coordinate the rest. We have multi-core processors in most modern computers, and many programs are multi-threaded.



It's mentioned that the ancestor VI programs were destroyed in the morning war, but I wonder if they didn't get incorporated into the geth VI network. The geth communicate at FTL and our verbal communication is slow and cumbersome to them, but perhaps the "mournful 'a capela'" was of more significance?

[SimonTheFrog]

I'm so totally with Xan in all this... hehe

[jlewlotr]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

jlewlotr wrote...

I'm not as up-to-date on Mass Effect AI lore as many on here, so I won't try, but here are some points to consider, as least regarding AI emotions and lying and such:

I was under the impression that the difference between a VI and an AI was essentially that a VI is limited completely to its programming, and acts according to it. An AI, however, acts of its own volition, thus implying it has emotions and feelings. If it acted completely logically, it would just be a VI driven by its programming logic. The reason the Geth seem to be so calculating and robotic is probably due to the fact that their decisions are vastly more informed than those made by organics, since all of their "minds" are directly linked and they can make judgments and come to consensuses much more quickly. Two heads are better than one right? How about a million heads working together...

Also, on my first playthrough I noticed that at one point the lights of Legions inner wiring change from blue to red. I'm not exactly sure at what point that happened, I just noticed it eventually. Are there any theories about that?

The color changes with the loyalty mission. Its just a artistic gimmic i think.

Well, what you describe is essentially the question: does self-awareness mean feelings like compassion, empathy, interest in others, hate, fear etc.
Or could it be that AI is just like VI, only self-aware and with the will to improve itself and take measure for self-defence if needed.

the latter is what i try to find arguments for, i think others are more going into the first direction.

I see what you mean about self-awareness.  Maybe though the idea of self-defense and (perhaps to a less extent) self-improvement, are not necessarily higher functions beyond the possible logic of a simple VI.  As an example, the VI at the core of the derelict ship (can't remember the mission name or location) was programmed to defend itself.  This leads me to believe that an AI has the ability to be emotional and possibly irrational.  There clearly is a huge difference between VI and AI in the galaxy, and my guess is that AI cognition is very similar to organic cognition.  Otherwise, what would really be the difference between a VI and an AI.

[Geth Knight]

@Creston918: What if Legion means that, currently he is the only one. Doesn't mean that they haven't sent peaceful envoy before, that were mistaken as hostile due to history.

The outposts could have been of the peaceful Geth that was mistaken and destroyed. So the Geth decided "Hey, lets send one terminal out."

[SimonTheFrog]

Geth Knight wrote...

@Creston918: What if Legion means that, currently he is the only one. Doesn't mean that they haven't sent peaceful envoy before, that were mistaken as hostile due to history.

The outposts could have been of the peaceful Geth that was mistaken and destroyed. So the Geth decided "Hey, lets send one terminal out."

The outpost are not really negotiating as if they were very peaceful. I checked, they shoot on sight

[Faerlyte]

Because the Geth don't possess emotions it stands to reason that another faction of Geth would be indifferent to the existence of organics - that, in fact, makes more sense than the hell bent on destruction approach of the "heretics". That does not make sense even for a machine, unless it has been programmed to destroy, which we know that the Quarians never did that. They are that way for a reason; the Reapers. It makes more sense for there to be the "good" Geth, aka Legion, than for them all to be the Reaper's little stooges. It's part of the evolution of the Geth, which we already know they can do as is evident by their independence from the Quarians that built them.



I have no doubts of Legion's loyalty whatsoever and I'm glad that BioWare is taking this approach. There should be Geth that don't follow the Reapers because even though they are AI's it's already been made evident that they're special in their evolution, therefore not all Geth would follow the same course. It would be illogical for an entire group, AI or not, to be just evil, which in essence is what the Geth were made out to be in ME1. I mean, that's just ridiculous really, especially when what they were originally built for was just manual labor...there's no reason for them to possess this need to kill organics without restraint unless it is unnatural.



To me, Legion is just showcasing how an AI becomes more than just a machine. There's more to the Geth than just that, which is why Legion is bashful when questioned about the N7 armor. I like this different perspective on the Geth - it adds another dimension or realism.

[Lightice_av]

Well, what you describe is essentially the question: does self-awareness mean feelings like compassion, empathy, interest in others, hate, fear etc.
Or could it be that AI is just like VI, only self-aware and with the will to improve itself and take measure for self-defence if needed.

AIs in Mass Effect universe consistently demonstrate emotions, both positive and negative. The desire for self-improvement in itself requires emotional thought-processes. Emotion is a motivational force above everything else. And as I've repeatedly stated, emotions aren't special or strange phenomenon - I'm willing to bet that we'll make an emotional artificial intelligence years before we learn how to make a truly sapient one.

2) I have no problem agreeing to disagree on that point. Sure, you can see more things into the Geth behavior in ME1, but it's not there as evidence. In essence, you're saying to me "You need to give me evidence for your theory, but my theory—without evidence—stands as fact."

My theory was proven by Legion and the mainstream geth. I held the opinion that the geth were to be a more important and complex part of the Mass Effect mythos than they had been in ME1 ever since I first finished that game - and I was correct. The clues were right there, and they guided me to the same conclusion that ME2 provided.

Especially since Legion says that HE has been the only Peace-Geth beyond the Veil.

No. Legion states that it is currently the only geth functioning beyond the Perseus Veil. It outright states that the geth have been observing the organic civilizations before this point, but Legion is the first one made to interact with them. The listening post I believe was set up as result of the Heretic actions - the geth needed to learn what would be the outcome of the conflict, and if they would need to bolster their own defences.

I don't say that Legion isn't capable of lying. I'm saying that it's not in its best interest to do so, since upholding fiction about Heretic geth would only result in further conflict when the truth comes out; geth data can be intercepted and decrypted, as Tali proved in ME1. Legion wants allies against the Reapers, and lying to potential allies about an important detail like that would be detrimental. Peace treaties have been made in the past between formerly warring parties, and the geth are smart enough to know this.

I am quite sure that the two geth factions were a part of the mythos ever since ME1. Again, why else make Tali specifically point out her need to find geth that aren't under Saren's control, making it clear that even she with all her prejudices can make the difference between the two factions long before it becomes a major plot point. Again, the clues are right there, and ME2 only confirms what I and many others theorized long ago.

The outpost are not really negotiating as if they were very peaceful. I checked, they shoot on sight

 
They're not negotiating. They're observing the situation between the Heretics and the organics. At this point the mainstream geth see no need for organic friendship, or even the possibility for it, and a tank rolling at their listening post is a very clear message of what they're about to get, and naturally act on it. Remember that you were sent to destroy them all regardless of their intentions - they know it just as well as you.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 24 février 2010 - 01:06 .

[Geth Knight]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Geth Knight wrote...

@Creston918: What if Legion means that, currently he is the only one. Doesn't mean that they haven't sent peaceful envoy before, that were mistaken as hostile due to history.

The outposts could have been of the peaceful Geth that was mistaken and destroyed. So the Geth decided "Hey, lets send one terminal out."

The outpost are not really negotiating as if they were very peaceful. I checked, they shoot on sight

That maybe but they were wary of organic life at that point. They were undergoing a splintering of their civilization. Or it's been going on. Who knows how long they have been in contact with Sovereign

[SimonTheFrog]

[quote]Lightice_av wrote...


The outpost are not really negotiating as if they were very peaceful. I checked, they shoot on sight [/quote] 
They're not negotiating. They're observing the situation between the Heretics and the organics. At this point the mainstream geth see no need for organic friendship, or even the possibility for it, and a tank rolling at their listening post is a very clear message of what they're about to get, and naturally act on it. Remember that you were sent to destroy them all regardless of their intentions - they know it just as well as you.
[/quote]

I agree from a logic point of view.

But if BW has intended to have peaceful geth in ME1 it would have been very easy to make one of the geth in the outpost say something like: "we are not the heretics with Saren, we are just watching. Don't kill us please". 

I really have the feeling that the peaceful legion part was added in ME2 and not planned from the time before or during ME1... cant prove it though, so i won't defend this position with my life 

[Geth Knight]

[quote]SimonTheFrog wrote...

[quote]Lightice_av wrote...


The outpost are not really negotiating as if they were very peaceful. I checked, they shoot on sight [/quote] 
They're not negotiating. They're observing the situation between the Heretics and the organics. At this point the mainstream geth see no need for organic friendship, or even the possibility for it, and a tank rolling at their listening post is a very clear message of what they're about to get, and naturally act on it. Remember that you were sent to destroy them all regardless of their intentions - they know it just as well as you.
[/quote]

I agree from a logic point of view.

But if BW has intended to have peaceful geth in ME1 it would have been very easy to make one of the geth in the outpost say something like: "we are not the heretics with Saren, we are just watching. Don't kill us please". 

I really have the feeling that the peaceful legion part was added in ME2 and not planned from the time before or during ME1... cant prove it though, so i won't defend this position with my life 
[/quote]

But to have them say something like that would be totally random and pointless. It probably would have pissed off alot of people. Besides, if it was a secret mission, they wouldnt' say anything anyway.

[Wild Still]

An interesting thought that the Geth just suddenly thought to themselves "ZOMG Shepard is a genocide in underwear, we need to make nice." Shep is totally a species killer, BTW.

[vashts1985]

Legion's iris is light blue.



he is obviously paragon. he is not lying.

[implodinggoat]

I don't trust Legion a great deal; however his actions are contrary to the goals of the Reapers. If he were serving the Reapers....



1: Why would he assist you in fighting the Reapers who the heretic Geth consider to be Gods?

2: Why would he inform you of the existence of the heretic base in the first place?

3: It is possible that he does believe the Reapers are Gods and he informed you of the Geth base because the Geth on the "heretic" base were in fact the ones who refused to worship the Reapers. But; if this were the case why wouldn't he try to convince you to rewrite their programming rather than blow up the base?



So, I believe Legion when he asserts that he doesn't worship the Reapers and I believe that his goals are in conflict with the Geth who do worship them. However; I lack the necessary evidence to believe that the non "heretical" Geth are necessarily as peaceful as he asserts they are, although it is certainly possible. Thus in ME2, I choose to blow up the Geth base since doing so weakens my enemies regardless of whether the non heretical Geth are truly peaceful; while preserving the base could potentially weaken one hostile Geth faction while bolstering the numbers of another (that and I find the concept of reprogramming an entity with free will to be unethical).

[Wild Still]

vashts1985 wrote...

Legion's iris is light blue.

he is obviously paragon. he is not lying.

Blue is the colour of Geth fear.

Legion just wants to be one of, if not the only, Geth Shepard doesn't stomp the ever lovin' tar out of.

Modifié par Wild Still, 24 février 2010 - 02:51 .

[Vaenier]

Legion does the Robot. Thus proving he does not lie to you. I win.

[JThompson6577]

MaaZeus wrote...

Pretty easily.  Her father was performing experiments on sentients with
not only her knowledge but her support.  Then when you find out, she
(seems to) turn on the water works and begs you not to tell anyone.

While im pretty sure you are just goofing/trolling around, I still have to clarify. Tali never sent anything SENTIENT to his father. Only parts that were dead, cannot reactivate on its own and such. In organic terms it can be said that she just sent valuable bodyparts and organs. This is what her loyalty mission was about too. She had no idea that her father was building active geth out of the parts she sent plus other things she was completely unaware off.

Her father intetionally left Tali out of the loop what he was really doing, and this is clearly shown in the V-logs and evidence. Thats what the evidence was all about, Rael was commiting atrocities on Sentient beings without Tali's knowledge, and you can show it to clear her own name if you so wish, though ruining her familys name in the process...

Not trolling. 

I may have gone a little far with what Tali knew, but I do find it really odd that this info she was so hot to trot to keep under wraps got into Xen's hands so easily. 

In Mordin's loyalty mission (which is most similar to Tali's) he makes sure the data is under control either by destroying it or keeping a single copy for himself.

Yet Tali doesn't take the same precautions.  If she was so worried that this would ruin her family, wouldn't she go farther than ask you not to tell anyone?

Maybe it's not intentional, but I really doubt it was simply a mistake.  She had to have known they'd come look over the ship and find out what the research on the ship was.  That really concerns me because it implies she would put the Fleet's well being over even her own convictions if backed into the corner.

I really wish they hadn't had this plot in ME 2, not because it wasn't well done, but because it poisoned my view of the Quarians; they've gone from a race that made a horrible mistake in a moment of panic over the potential rise of an AI, to a group of people not all that dissimilar to the PLO or Hamas in their need to wipe out the Geth at any cost.

Not that the geth are clean in this but quite simply; they didn't ask to exist, they didn't ask to be networked and sure didn't ask to become scenient but once they were they defended their right to exist and if the geth can be taken at their word, then the Quarians intend to commit genocide on a peaceful race.

Worse yet, I think Tali agrees with that plan.

[UnstableMongoose]

You know, I spent a good two days in the geth/quarian morality thread trying to convince individuals of at least the possibility that Legion is lying (I don't personally believe he is lying or telling the truth, I simply realize both are possible), and no one else will agree with me. It is not "impossible" for Legion to be lying or "impossible" for him to be telling their truth. People are simply externalizing whether or not they like his character (I think he's a badass, by the way) into a voucher for his truthfulness. There is no proof that Legion is lying, and there's no proof he's telling the truth.



Oh, and the Reaper analogy is the largest logical fallacy on these forums besides the gay Shepard controversy. The Reaper analogy would only be true if there was no proof at all of the Reapers' existence. However, there is proof of Reaper existence, whereas there is absolutely no empirical reason to believe that what Legion tells you is not just another Reaper attempt to manipulate organics into doing their will.